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Luke 17
And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you
And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, “Come at once and sit down to eat’? But will he not rather say to him, “Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”
And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you
And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, “Come at once and sit down to eat’? But will he not rather say to him, “Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”
You list in the first one that this can be both practical and spiritual. ALL of what you list can be spiritual. 
I love the fact Jesus talks about acts of love having value, and the lack
of them being a bad thing.
There is no condemnation for the reason why the acts were done, just that they were.
The enemy loves to stop acts of love by sowing doubt, and suggesting it is all selfish
and someone else will do it. The reason it needs to be done, because clearly others
are not doing it, and now is the opportunity for you to show real love.
of them being a bad thing.
There is no condemnation for the reason why the acts were done, just that they were.
The enemy loves to stop acts of love by sowing doubt, and suggesting it is all selfish
and someone else will do it. The reason it needs to be done, because clearly others
are not doing it, and now is the opportunity for you to show real love.
P
[FONT="]5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/FONT]
A
What are your thoughts on these two set of verses?
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Romans 2:6-10
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Romans 2:6-10
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
I noticed in the story Jesus told in Matt 25:31-46 the people who were accepted into heaven
were called "the righteous".
If Jesus calls us "the righteous" or saints, how can we knowingly be bound in unrepentant sin.
It is impossible to separate purity and holiness from Gods people.
How can love, if it is real and working in ones heart put up with sin and death?
How can we be a Holy Temple of the Holy Spirit and be happy with rebellious sinful behaviour?
Judgement is about such issues, and compromise has never been Gods way.
were called "the righteous".
If Jesus calls us "the righteous" or saints, how can we knowingly be bound in unrepentant sin.
It is impossible to separate purity and holiness from Gods people.
How can love, if it is real and working in ones heart put up with sin and death?
How can we be a Holy Temple of the Holy Spirit and be happy with rebellious sinful behaviour?
Judgement is about such issues, and compromise has never been Gods way.
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I believe most people know what it means to have "perseverance in doing good". However what is meant by "selfishly ambitious and does not obey the truth"?
I believe the doctrine of working for your salvation would fall under the second category because it's untrue. (legalism) also winking at blatant sin (licentiousness)
We probably could discuss it more when we move on to meat: excerising our senses to discern good and evil.
I believe the doctrine of working for your salvation would fall under the second category because it's untrue. (legalism) also winking at blatant sin (licentiousness)
We probably could discuss it more when we move on to meat: excerising our senses to discern good and evil.
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I understand some of the hesitation and language discussion.
Most of us grew up in church, we know what certain "terms: mean (I grew up under the KJV, so I can understand some of the language, even though I have not used it since i was a teenager, and if I try to read today, I am lost most times)
for new people. especially in today's age though, many of those words have different meanings. so when they hear the word, like convict, they think of a Criminal convicted of a crime, Yet a believer is justified or redeemed, So how can a believer be convicted of a crime. sort of goes against the grain. and is confusing to many of the younger generation.
for us old timers. We think it is odd we should argue about such things, But I think it is a language barrier the church needs to humble itself and overcome..
And it should not demand the non believers follow us in our language, But we do as paul did, and become all things to all people, to help bring a person to Christ.
Most of us grew up in church, we know what certain "terms: mean (I grew up under the KJV, so I can understand some of the language, even though I have not used it since i was a teenager, and if I try to read today, I am lost most times)
for new people. especially in today's age though, many of those words have different meanings. so when they hear the word, like convict, they think of a Criminal convicted of a crime, Yet a believer is justified or redeemed, So how can a believer be convicted of a crime. sort of goes against the grain. and is confusing to many of the younger generation.
for us old timers. We think it is odd we should argue about such things, But I think it is a language barrier the church needs to humble itself and overcome..
And it should not demand the non believers follow us in our language, But we do as paul did, and become all things to all people, to help bring a person to Christ.
E
we have a new nature also.
our old self had no problem sinning.. It was our nature. But our new nature has major issues with sin, it is against our nature.
The old nature could not do good works, Our new nature, good works come naturally,
even if we remain babes,, Something will change, because of we are saved, our natures changed.. we may not go out and do all this spiritually mature stuff.. But our sin lives will change.. because of our new nature, and the fact the HS will chasten those who are his..
our old self had no problem sinning.. It was our nature. But our new nature has major issues with sin, it is against our nature.
The old nature could not do good works, Our new nature, good works come naturally,
even if we remain babes,, Something will change, because of we are saved, our natures changed.. we may not go out and do all this spiritually mature stuff.. But our sin lives will change.. because of our new nature, and the fact the HS will chasten those who are his..
I think you missed the point that was being made. The people doing these good works didn't know they were even doing them. It is a natural flow from them - not being forced "to do things". They said..."When did we do these things as if we were doing them to you".
Of course they make a decision to help others when they do things. We do participate in what God wants to do through us - we are not robots governed by an outside force.
Of course they make a decision to help others when they do things. We do participate in what God wants to do through us - we are not robots governed by an outside force.
E
rev 20, great white throne, Only the dead in Christ will be present, They are delivered to Christ, where as believers are resurrected by Christ
romans 2 speaks of the world. and two groups of people...
Those who reject Jesus, they will be those who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (even if they appear religious) and they will be judged as such
Those who are born of God, persevere in doing good, seek immortality with Christ, and honor as his child.. These will be judged and granted eternal life.
romans 2 speaks of the world. and two groups of people...
Those who reject Jesus, they will be those who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (even if they appear religious) and they will be judged as such
Those who are born of God, persevere in doing good, seek immortality with Christ, and honor as his child.. These will be judged and granted eternal life.
Something to consider about "calling ourselves unprofitable servants" as it appears Jesus is saying in Luke 17.
In Greek - there are no punctuation marks - like commas, periods..etc. It is at the translators discretion to where they go and depending on their own beliefs while translating it - things can change.
Look at Luke 17:10 with a change in these man-made punctuation marks changed.
The change is the comma between commanded and you say and instead it is moved to be after commanded you and then starts with "you say - we are unprofitable slaves"
I have marked the change in the comma with a red - ,
Old way:
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
With the change in position of the comma -
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded, you say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
In context with Luke 17:5-10 - Jesus was telling them that they had little faith because they looked at themselves as servants. ( you say that you are unprofitable servants) This is not the talk of sons that are in the Beloved. Jesus was contrasting servants and how they acted and thought. Jesus said that they looked at themselves the wrong way.
"You say that we are unprofitable slaves and we have only done our duty"
Big difference. One is thinking wrong and saying wrong things because of a slave mentality - when we do that - it stunts our faith from manifesting.
If we want strong faith - we need to be thinking like a son and not a slave.
We do however at the request of our Lord make ourselves bond-slaves to do His will that He has purposed for us but that is a different topic then "thinking we are nothing but unprofitable slaves".
Anyway....a different view of Luke 17 for consideration.
In Greek - there are no punctuation marks - like commas, periods..etc. It is at the translators discretion to where they go and depending on their own beliefs while translating it - things can change.
Look at Luke 17:10 with a change in these man-made punctuation marks changed.
The change is the comma between commanded and you say and instead it is moved to be after commanded you and then starts with "you say - we are unprofitable slaves"
I have marked the change in the comma with a red - ,
Old way:
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
With the change in position of the comma -
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded, you say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
In context with Luke 17:5-10 - Jesus was telling them that they had little faith because they looked at themselves as servants. ( you say that you are unprofitable servants) This is not the talk of sons that are in the Beloved. Jesus was contrasting servants and how they acted and thought. Jesus said that they looked at themselves the wrong way.
"You say that we are unprofitable slaves and we have only done our duty"
Big difference. One is thinking wrong and saying wrong things because of a slave mentality - when we do that - it stunts our faith from manifesting.
If we want strong faith - we need to be thinking like a son and not a slave.
We do however at the request of our Lord make ourselves bond-slaves to do His will that He has purposed for us but that is a different topic then "thinking we are nothing but unprofitable slaves".
Anyway....a different view of Luke 17 for consideration.
The juggernaut of Gods judgement
Sin destroys everything it touches, but Christ cleanses and heals us of its effects.
Two smalls statements, yet this is the paradox of our spirituality and lives.
If we took seriously love and its reality worked out in righteousness, we would see
how destructive and evil sin is and want nothing to do with it.
Repentance is renouncing the sin, disowning its intent, running the other way, because
we know how bad it is, and we know the righteous judge of all will burn it all up.
Yet some want to play games, bend the concepts, excuse anything to be nice.
Sin destroys everything it touches, but Christ cleanses and heals us of its effects.
Two smalls statements, yet this is the paradox of our spirituality and lives.
If we took seriously love and its reality worked out in righteousness, we would see
how destructive and evil sin is and want nothing to do with it.
Repentance is renouncing the sin, disowning its intent, running the other way, because
we know how bad it is, and we know the righteous judge of all will burn it all up.
Yet some want to play games, bend the concepts, excuse anything to be nice.
E
Jesus calls people righteous who have the righteousness of Christ in them, Not those who works to be good people. Even the most morally good son of God would be deemed unrighteous according to the law. and he must have been saved,
We are righteous not by our works, but by Gods forgiveness and grace.
If you plan on standing before God (as it appears some here plan to do) and use YOUR righteousness to get into heaven, You will fall short. and fail.
Jesus said many will try this, and he will say depart from me, for I NEVER KNEW YOU
We are righteous not by our works, but by Gods forgiveness and grace.
If you plan on standing before God (as it appears some here plan to do) and use YOUR righteousness to get into heaven, You will fall short. and fail.
Jesus said many will try this, and he will say depart from me, for I NEVER KNEW YOU
Exactly! There is also a difference between doing things in self-effort and doing things from the life of Christ within us - which is love. 1 Cor 13: talks about doing things like giving all you have to feed the poor but not having love.
One is a religion of Christianity and the other is Christ Himself manifest His fruit of love in and through us to a hurt and dying world. Outwardly the "doing of things" may look the same but the origin of them is different.
Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by his own self-effort and created an Ismael. God waited until he could do nothing in the flesh by his own doing until God gave him a son in Isaac. ( Abraham still participated in the making the baby - if you catch my drift...lol ...so we do things too with God)
God only recognizes what is from the origin of Him. No flesh shall glory in His presence. God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son..." God doesn't not recognize what we do in our own self-effort apart from Him.
One is a religion of Christianity and the other is Christ Himself manifest His fruit of love in and through us to a hurt and dying world. Outwardly the "doing of things" may look the same but the origin of them is different.
Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by his own self-effort and created an Ismael. God waited until he could do nothing in the flesh by his own doing until God gave him a son in Isaac. ( Abraham still participated in the making the baby - if you catch my drift...lol ...so we do things too with God)
God only recognizes what is from the origin of Him. No flesh shall glory in His presence. God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son..." God doesn't not recognize what we do in our own self-effort apart from Him.