Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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Feb 7, 2015
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#61
"Going to heaven" is just an expression for me. I fully understand and accept that the New Jerusalem is our eternal home...and the "new heaven and earth".
Have you ever factually calculated the dimensions of that supposed 'literal' city? I have. It is not that big. And as I recall, the gates are something like 50 miles apart.

You are truly going to fit all the Christians who have ever lived, throughout the entire world, for the full period of history, into a space of less than the size of the East Coast of the United States?
 
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MattTooFor

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#62
Have you ever factually calculated the dimensions of that supposed 'literal' city? I have. It is not that big. And as I recall, the gates are something like 50 miles apart.

You are truly going to fit all the Christians who have ever lived, throughout the entire world, for the full period of history, into a space of less than the size of the East Coast of the United States?
First of all, the New Jerusalem is a three-dimensional object...and therefore MUCH more spacious than the East coast. It is actually kind of fun to do the math. With my limited skills, and the dimensions being roughly 1400 miles long, wide and deep (apparently somewhat cube-shaped, or precisely so)...that would be enough room for 20 billion residents, each with the equivalent of a 50 story building, with 6 million square feet per floor (roughly the equivalent of an 18-hole golf course) and with 30 foot ceilings. I think I would knock out 5 ceilings and install an indoor golf course (just kidding).

There has been a Christian scientist (it was either Henry Morris or John Whitcomb, I forget which) who calculated there has been about 100 billion souls come into existence since 4000BC (roughly the time of Adam and Eve according to some) including all those souls who never made it past the birth canal (according to my dear old Mom, I have 5 brothers and sisters waiting for me in heavenly places).

But anyway...I was trying to focus on the common ground!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#63
This 1000 years?

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Where do you find souls, heaven or on earth? If someone has been beheaded and you see their souls wouldn't that indicate they are in heaven and not back on earth with new glorified bodies?

You don't think they get resurrected without their heads do you?
What you said in green above is a trick question - because some of us have been operating without using this head to begin with...:cool:
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#64
Physical size of New Jerusalem. (Just to demonstrate the absurdity of taking so literally some of the illustrations put forth in the Bible.)

I mean, John even begins the book of Revelation by telling us he was spaced-out when he had those visions.
 
Nov 23, 2016
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#65
This may be a very short-lived thread. I'm just curious as to whether some people here aren't so much "preterist" as they are simply rejecting "pre-tribulation rapture" false doctrine?

In other words, when all the trials and tribulations of this old world are done with...you do believe God places all humanity in front of Him for a momentous Judgement Day, don't you? Or maybe you don't. That's why I ask. But that, to me...would just be a modified "post-trib" position.

Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation". After that, when the world ends and there is this "Judgment Day" where both the "great and small" stand before God and the saints are tasked with participation in this judging process (1Cor. 6:2-3)...we have to get up to heaven somehow, right?

So that would mean we have to have a "rapture" (a supernatural translation) of some form or fashion. Unless (as I said before) we're going to use giants catapults or souped-up 747's.


I had a brief exchange with one guy here who doesn't believe we go to heaven at all (if I understood correctly)! Thinks it was an idea concocted by 15th century monks (or said something like that).

Just curious.
All this means to me is that at Christ's return, the living body of believers go to be with the Lord and the non-believers don't. All will be judged, however long that is afterwards .. but I strongly suspect that the waiting time will be brief .. very brief. Judgement Day and the saints participating in judgement does not preclude the need for a pre-trib rapture. Not at all.
 
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MattTooFor

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#66
Physical size of New Jerusalem. (Just to demonstrate the absurdity of taking so literally some of the illustrations put forth in the Bible.)
Hmmm. I provided you with specific math. Another fact is...you can fit the world's entire population of 8 billion into the northwestern quadrant of the US. Draw a line from the northern border of Washington state, down to the northern section of California, and square it out. Every soul on earth could fit there with a fairly comfortable 10,000 square feet per four souls. Logistics and infrastructure would be a separate issue of course. But I'm just sayin'...
 
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Ariel82

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#67
Who me? No, I understand and believe in a 1000 year kingdom. Why did you think I didn't?
Do you understand the term amillenialism?

If you don't then you missing a puzzle piece to understand others beliefs.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#68
Hmmm. I provided you with specific math. Another fact is...you can fit the world's entire population of 8 billion into the northwestern quadrant of the US. Draw a line from the northern border of Washington state, down to the northern section of California, and square it out. Every soul on earth could fit there with a fairly comfortable 10,000 square feet per four souls. Logistics and infrastructure would be a separate issue of course. But I'm just sayin'...
And I am sure you can point out the exact spot, just to illustrate one absurdity of literalism in many of these "visions", where a star will hit the Earth (without exploding it into 30 trillion pieces) and do all this specific damage and destruction (one third of the water supply polluted) and not even affect the living people who will be out, wandering around looking for pure water.

And what do you think would INSTANTLY occur if the sun went dark? Every single inhabitant of the planet would be frozen into an ice cube within seconds.
 

tourist

Senior Member
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#69
I'm neither preterist or modified post-trib whatever that stuff means. I am an android and just following my programing.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#70
I'm neither preterist or modified post-trib whatever that stuff means. I am an android and just following my programing.
Actually probably more true of most of us than we ever care to admit.
 
Dec 13, 2016
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#71
John was not spaced out. Sorry this is not acceptable to me.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#72
John was not spaced out. Sorry this is not acceptable to me.
Do you think he specifically told us of his state of mind, simply because he was having a little prayer time?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#74
There is another option. The A of D and the tribulation happened back in 70 AD and the Beast of Rev 13 is future. I don't see anything to link them together.

In Revelation 7:3 the phrase "till we have sealed all the servants of our God in their foreheads" in opposition to the verses Revelation 13:15,Revelation 14:9,Revelation 19:20,Revelation 9:4 ect.

so considering there are two separate groups, one who have the mark of God and those who have the mark of the beast. the wrath of God is poured out on those who have the mark,name,worship the image ect. but it is not given to hurt(wrath) on any of these who have the mark of God in their foreheads up to a point and then it is permitted to kill those who refuse to worship the image (Rev.13:15,Rev.11:7,)

It is interesting that the beast that ascends out of the "pit" is the one who makes war on the ones mentioned in Rev.11:7 and overcomes them and kills them. In Rev.9:4 the locust ascend out of the pit also but in verse 4 they are given to hurt(not over come/kill) but only those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads so they torment who?

Now in Revelation 17:8 there is another who ascends out of the pit and in Revelation 20:2-3 the devil is in the pit and ascends out of it after the 1000 years. So one ascends out in Rev.9:4(but torments those who DON'T have the mark of God),The one in Rev.20:2-3 ascends after the mill. and then there is the one from Revelation 17:8 that ascends out of the pit before the 1000 years/mill. so the only one that ascends "out of the pit" and is permitted to kill those with the mark of God is the one in Rev.17:8.

So two of these that ascend out of the pit are before the 1000 years and one is after. Now at the time the Revelation was given approx.ad60-96 the beast in Revelation 17:8 is in the pit(hasn’t' ascended yet) and so if at that time he had not ascended out yet then he had not yet killed the ones in Revelation 11:7 which brings us to approx. ad70.

Now the premise of thinking is that the ones involved in the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 were killed because the abomination of desolation had been seen/set up and after they saw it Matthew 24:15 then there would be an great tribulation, Matthew 24;21. So if the sacrifices continued to July ad70 and then ended,then the tribulation of those days are before/prior to anything being set up if it was something set up by Titus/Rome after the temple was destroyed.

There was a man named Johanan ben Zakai who in ad68 was smuggled out of Jerusalem in an coffin who went to Vespasion when Vespasian was still a military commander at his camp and Titus his son was not yet over the campaign in Jerusalem. Zakai foretold to Vespasian that Jerusalem would fall and that Vespasian would be the Roman Caesar afterwards Vespasian granted him several wishes because of this. Zakai had himself smuggeled out of Jerusalem because the Zealots had replaced the priest with other priest in the temple but as of ad68 the sacrifices were still ongoing in the temple. So there was nothing in history up to the point of ad68 that was looked at as polluted or AoD before Jerusalem was surrounded nor up to it's final days. After this point in time Vespasian left Titus in charge and Legio X Fretensis was sent to Jerusalem and the siege began so nothing was set up by Rome before this point so the AoD in the other option is still left open as to it's fulfilment unless someone can show it in history.
 
Dec 13, 2016
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#75
The first Abomination of Desolation occurred when Antiochus Epiphanes went head to head with the Priests.

Desolation = removal of daily sacrifice
Abomination = setting up of a false object of worship in Jerusalem

Now this is all corroborated in Daniel 11, but the imperial cult was set up by Augustus Caesar, whereby the Roman Emperor was to be venerated as a God. Furthermore all the legions bore the image of Caesar on their standard, and they worshipped him first thing in the morning.

When the Romans sacked Jerusalem, they stuck their standards everywhere, and duly worshipped Vespasian.

= AoD
 
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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#76
The problem with that would be that it's referred to as the "Jewish revolt" and means that the Jews who revolted against Rome/Vespasian minted their own coins(so didn’t uses Rome’s) and refused to honour his authority(or worship his image). Why are they being killed in the siege for not using his money and bowing down to him if scripture says the opposite that those who (did) use his money and worshipped him would receive Gods wrath?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#77
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;.....................
******************
Not what I would call an average, normal mindset.
 
Dec 13, 2016
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#78
It's a vision from God.

If you think John was "spaced out", do you think he was on drugs, and that the Bible is just some hippie shit?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#79
It's a vision from God.

If you think John was "spaced out", do you think he was on drugs, and that the Bible is just some hippie shit?
Another game player? I said he was "spaced-out." Meaning if you had been there, and tried to talk with him or asked him to perform some normal task, he would have been incomprehensible and probably very confused as to why you seemed to be there in "heaven" with him.

Or, do you think he was actually physically transported somewhere?
 
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Feb 7, 2015
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#80
Willie we had a guy talking about smoking pot not being a sin earlier..please excuse the misunderstanding,
Sorry, but "Nope." She knows I don't feel that way. I'm not going to defend any fool on here talking like that just because she is touchy, and wants me to be in his boat.

But it was admirable of you to try to defend her.