Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[oyster67]

Representing believers and non believers...

Wheat and tares
Sheep and goats
Narrow and broad way

Matthew 7:13,14 represents those who end up in hell and those who end up in heaven.

(Matt 7:13 [KJV])
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(Matt 7:14 [KJV])
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[valiant]

Matthew 7:13,14 represents those who end up in hell and those who end up in heaven.

(Matt 7:13 [KJV])
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(Matt 7:14 [KJV])
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It also represents those who believe in Christ and those who don't eg John 5.24

 

[UnderGrace]

If it were true, it would be good news for the lukewarm Laodiceans of Rev. 3:16.

Ahh yes the lukewarm church, who are they indeed?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The lukewarm are the self-righteous.

I know.... you thought that it meant they weren’t on fire for the Lord, well keep reading.

If you are hot, you are where should be, depending on the Lord, if you are cold you may not be depending on Jesus, but at least you are not pretending and know that you are in need.

The lukewarm, they think they have it all together spiritually but really they are in need and cannot see it. They are the ones putting on the performance apart from the Lord. He/She is the one who says I don't do worldly things because I am so good and righteous, I even show up to church on time with my lovely suit.

Yup Jesus does not like that, He wants to spit them out. Are they lost forever? No

He tells them exactly what to do.... come back to His abundant grace and love, He wants to make them rich again with His righteousness not the self-righteousness that they have adopted.

No worries they are not losing their salvation because they have become self-righteous but he will chasten them. He wants them to repent, yes because they are thinking wrong about who they are in Jesus.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou may see.[SUP]19 [/SUP]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[oyster67]

Ahh yes the lukewarm church, who are they indeed?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The lukewarm are the self-righteous.

I know.... you thought that it meant they weren’t on fire for the Lord, well keep reading.

If you are hot, you are where should be, depending on the Lord, if you are cold you may not be depending on Jesus, but at least you are not pretending and know that you are in need.

The lukewarm, they think they have it all together spiritually but really they are in need and cannot see it. They are the ones putting on the performance apart from the Lord. He/She is the one who says I don't do worldly things because I am so good and righteous, I even show up to church on time with my lovely suit.

Yup Jesus does not like that, He wants to spit them out. Are they lost forever? No

He tells them exactly what to do.... come back to His abundant grace and love, He wants to make them rich again with His righteousness not the self-righteousness that they have adopted.

No worries they are not losing their salvation because they have become self-righteous but he will chasten them. He wants them to repent, yes because they are thinking wrong about who they are in Jesus.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou may see.[SUP]19 [/SUP]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev. 3:16 does not say that Jesus wants to spew them, it says He will spew them. A very big worry. They are going to hell if they do not repent.

 

[Chester]

Hebrews 6:4-6

What does "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean? It seems this group had the Holy Spirit in some form or other - so were they Christians?

"if they shall fall away" - fall away from what? whatever they had

 

[valiant]

Rev. 3:16 does not say that Jesus wants to spew them, it says He will spew them. A very big worry. They are going to hell if they do not repent.

It says nothing about Hell. The Ephesus drinking water was in mind (It made Timothy's stomach sick). It was cold in the hills but by the time it reached Ephesus it was neither cold or hot, it was lukewarm, useless for anything. And what does lukewarm water do to you? It makes you sick (spew).

Jesus was simply saying, 'you make me sick'. But His words leave us in no doubt that some where mere professors, and some would hear Him and be restored. It says nothing about eternal destinies.

 

[valiant]

Hebrews 6:4-6

What does "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean? It seems this group had the Holy Spirit in some form or other - so were they Christians?

"if they shall fall away" - fall away from what? whatever they had

It is literally, they had 'gone along with the Holy Spirit'. They were living in times of revival and many who had not been finally converted would have experienced the work of the Spirit acting upon them, as happens in true revival. That is why their rejection was final. They had committed the blasphemy against the Spirit. Thus they fell away from the target they were aiming at.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Ahh yes the lukewarm church, who are they indeed?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The lukewarm are the self-righteous.

I know.... you thought that it meant they weren’t on fire for the Lord, well keep reading.

If you are hot, you are where should be, depending on the Lord, if you are cold you may not be depending on Jesus, but at least you are not pretending and know that you are in need.

The lukewarm, they think they have it all together spiritually but really they are in need and cannot see it. They are the ones putting on the performance apart from the Lord. He/She is the one who says I don't do worldly things because I am so good and righteous, I even show up to church on time with my lovely suit.

Yup Jesus does not like that, He wants to spit them out. Are they lost forever? No

He tells them exactly what to do.... come back to His abundant grace and love, He wants to make them rich again with His righteousness not the self-righteousness that they have adopted.

No worries they are not losing their salvation because they have become self-righteous but he will chasten them. He wants them to repent, yes because they are thinking wrong about who they are in Jesus.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou may see.[SUP]19 [/SUP]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

That's right. That is one of the main objectives of the book of Revelation. It is a call to Christians in all churches in every age to repentance from the sin of religiosity, the substitution of our own activities for God's activity.

 

[oyster67]

It says nothing about Hell. The Ephesus drinking water was in mind (It made Timothy's stomach sick). It was cold in the hills but by the time it reached Ephesus it was neither cold or hot, it was lukewarm, useless for anything. And what does lukewarm water do to you? It makes you sick (spew).

Jesus was simply saying, 'you make me sick'. But His words leave us in no doubt that some where mere professors, and some would hear Him and be restored. It says nothing about eternal destinies.

Is that what your favorite translation says? "I will spew Ephesus water out of my mouth"? I hope the Ephesus water repents in a timely fashion.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

It says nothing about Hell. The Ephesus drinking water was in mind (It made Timothy's stomach sick). It was cold in the hills but by the time it reached Ephesus it was neither cold or hot, it was lukewarm, useless for anything. And what does lukewarm water do to you? It makes you sick (spew).

Jesus was simply saying, 'you make me sick'. But His words leave us in no doubt that some where mere professors, and some would hear Him and be restored. It says nothing about eternal destinies

Is that what your favorite translation says? "I will spew Ephesus water out of my mouth"? I hope the Ephesus water repents in a timely fashion.

are you really simple minded or just trying to appear so?

Jesus was using the Ephesus water as His illustration for the church,

 

[oyster67]

are you really simple minded or just trying to appear so?

Jesus was using the Ephesus water as His illustration for the church,

I really am simple minded. I drank too much Ephesus water as a child.

 

[Chester]

It is literally, they had 'gone along with the Holy Spirit'. They were living in times of revival and many who had not been finally converted would have experienced the work of the Spirit acting upon them, as happens in true revival. That is why their rejection was final. They had committed the blasphemy against the Spirit. Thus they fell away from the target they were aiming at.

Interesting! You state as fact quite a few things above that the text itself does not say . . .

 

[FranC]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

I was sent here from another thread and am dumbfounded at how some just refuse to understand the English language.
Or the Greek one, for that matter.

So what you're saying is that the writer of Hebrews, probably Paul, did NOT say what he MEANT nor MEAN what he SAID.
He wrote in some mysterious way that no one could really understand UNLESS they had some big shot theologian standing right behind him to explain the mystery.

is this what you're saying? Because when I read Hebrews 6:4-6 it says EXACTLY what it WANTS to say:

verse 4: Once people have seen the light and get a taste of heaven... THESE ARE SAVED PEOPLE, they partake of the Holy Spirit. Can't get more saved than that!!

verse 5: Continuation of explanation of born again believer...
verse 6: and THEN have FALLEN AWAY ... THESE ARE NOT SAVED PEOPLE, they have fallen away, they need RENEWING, that means they are NO LONGER SAVED.

What is difficult to understand about this? You need some guy on google to explain it? I thought God's word was for us to understand? Could it be that God made His inspired word so difficult that only special people understand it?

IF someone NEEDS RENEWING, it means they were new, got old, and need to get new again.

Simple and plain. It's just that it doesn't fit everyone's doctrine, SO THE WORDS NEED TO BE TWISTED to make them fit the doctrine.

That's not how it works. You read the words FIRST and THEN you make a doctrine out of them.

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Not true....Judas had all these things and he was not saved to begin with nor ended that way. But there are other views on this too. All these things have been addressed in the rest of the thread.


[video=youtube;ymCgHPu7Nz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCgHPu7Nz4[/video]

 

[PennEd]

I've thought, and prayed a lot on these verses and I am in no way proclaiming this analogy as doctrine, but as imperfect as it may be it may get some to think on it a little differently.

If you have ever been on a wine tasting tour you know that you don't swallow the wine. You taste it, you swirl it about, and finally you spit it out.

You can do that over and over and not get the intoxicating effect as if you swallowed it.

I think this passage is similar to the Holy Spirit. People hear the Word, think on it, ruminate on it, even get caught up in the excitement, possibly from "intoxicated" other Christians. But in the final analysis, they reject Him, and perhaps this is the partaking the writer to Hebrews is talking about.

Love you guys. Hope I didn't reopen a can of worms!

 

[oyster67]

I've thought, and prayed a lot on these verses and I am in no way proclaiming this analogy as doctrine, but as imperfect as it may be it may get some to think on it a little differently.

If you have ever been on a wine tasting tour you know that you don't swallow the wine. You taste it, you swirl it about, and finally you spit it out.

You can do that over and over and not get the intoxicating effect as if you swallowed it.

I think this passage is similar to the Holy Spirit. People hear the Word, think on it, ruminate on it, even get caught up in the excitement, possibly from "intoxicated" other Christians. But in the final analysis, they reject Him, and perhaps this is the partaking the writer to Hebrews is talking about.

Love you guys. Hope I didn't reopen a can of worms!

I never knew that about wine tasting. You believe that everyone that 'appears' to have lost his or her salvation was never really saved in the first place? I suppose that is ok if you define salvation as being determined by what state you are in at the very end.

I think it is ok to open worm cans as long as we can maintain a spirit of mutual love and respect for one another. Some people do it just because they enjoy worm fights. They ruin it for the rest of us.

I am glad that we can seek the Lord's blessing and the Holy Spirit's aid in our efforts to grow in knowledge and grace. Love, blessings, and Godspeed.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Amen....as does the rest of the bible......those who deny eternal security deny the words whatsoever, eternal, everlasting, sealed etc......

 

[FranC]

Not true....Judas had all these things and he was not saved to begin with nor ended that way. But there are other views on this too. All these things have been addressed in the rest of the thread.


[video=youtube;ymCgHPu7Nz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCgHPu7Nz4[/video]

Grace,
Judas was not saved to begin with???
You mean in Mathew 10 when Jesus sent out the disciples to preach and heal, He actually annointed an unbeliever to do this?

Judas was among those sent out. He followed Jesus around for over 3 years but was not saved?
This is a different topic.

I just bring this little part of it up because you're doing what every OSAS person does: You're changing the meaning of scripture to suit your needs.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Amen....as does the rest of the bible......those who deny eternal security deny the words whatsoever, eternal, everlasting, sealed etc......

Hi dcontroversial,

And your side denies the words:
EXCEPT
UNLESS
UNTIL
IF

It's funny!

Fran

 

[FranC]

I've thought, and prayed a lot on these verses and I am in no way proclaiming this analogy as doctrine, but as imperfect as it may be it may get some to think on it a little differently.

If you have ever been on a wine tasting tour you know that you don't swallow the wine. You taste it, you swirl it about, and finally you spit it out.

You can do that over and over and not get the intoxicating effect as if you swallowed it.

I think this passage is similar to the Holy Spirit. People hear the Word, think on it, ruminate on it, even get caught up in the excitement, possibly from "intoxicated" other Christians. But in the final analysis, they reject Him, and perhaps this is the partaking the writer to Hebrews is talking about.

Love you guys. Hope I didn't reopen a can of worms!

PennEd
The analogy is not correct.

Hebrews is not talking about persons who are tasting and trying things out.
Hebrews 6:4 says that these persons have been made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Do you know anyone who is NOT born again and is a partaker of the Holy Spirit??
I don't think so.

Please think it over again...

Fran