ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

FranC · Jan 30, 2017

Hi Plaintalk,
Yes. I believe everything Jesus said. Even that He said to be baptized. It is GOOD and necessary to be baptized at some point in our Christian walk. The earlier, the better. Catholics baptize at the infant stage because they deem it so important, as do all Chrisitans.

The problem for me is this: You clearly stated that if I'm not baptized I am not righteous and thus, possibley not even in a saved state.

One must not ADD ANYTHING to the salvific work of Jesus. If I add anything to it, it means it wasn't enough.

All I must do to be saved is to BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE LORD and all who do will be saved. Acts 2:21 Acts 4:12
John 3:16 states that WHOEVE BELIEVES will be saved. NOT whoever believes and is baptized.

Baptism is added only this time. You cannot take ONE verse, or even 2 or 3, and make a doctrine out of them. The verses MUST BE in compliance the entirety of the New Testament. It must agree with everything else.

I too agree with James 2:20-26
I agree with works.
I agree that we must bear good fruit.
But I do not agree that ANY work saves us, ONLY JESUS saves us - with NOTHING added.

My problem with purgatory is tied to this. If it's true that it exists, it means that the sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient.
If I have to be baptized to be saved, it measn that the sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient.

BTW, I had asked you the difference in the baptism of Mathew 28:19 in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
and the one in Acts 2:38 in the name of Jesus only.

Mathew is referring to form, or a formula. To be baptized in the name of...
Acts is referring to a method. Being baptized was understood then to remove sin, as John's baptism, but now it became Jesus' baptism.

As became understood, as we read Paul's letters, only belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation.
We must also follow Jesus' command to be bapized, but it is to receive power, not to be saved.
Acts 1:8

Fran

plaintalk · Jan 31, 2017

Fran- I have to ponder your response a while. It really bothers me that you take my comments as being personally judgmental. I want to apologize to you. God bless.
plaintalk

plaintalk · Feb 2, 2017

Hi Fran- some thoughts.
Baptism of infants creates a problem for me because IMO all responses must come from faith in God and I find it difficult to believe that the baptism of an infant is of faith on the part of the child. Without faith it is impossible to please God. However I do not believe that we are born sinners. Each of us is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Accordingly, purgatory is not an issue for me.

Acts 2: 21- Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. True, but what does it mean? What did the 3,000 in Acts 2 do, to call upon the name of the Lord. Romans 10: 14 asks the question, “How shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? IMO this strongly implies that one must believe before he can call upon the name of the Lord. The only thing they did after they believed was to repent in the name of Jesus (Luke 24: 47) and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. This appears to be confirmed by Acts 22: 16 which connects baptism with calling on the name of the Lord and by 1 Peter 3: 21 (NASB)which states that baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience and also states that baptism now saves us.

Acts 4: 12- People in the Old Testament called upon the name of the Lord in several ways, notably by prayer and offering sacrifices. However in the New Testament the term appears to have a more restrictive meaning. Saul of Tarsus (the Apostle Paul) prayed and fasted for three days and yet he was not saved as he was still in sin when Ananias, instructed by the Lord, told him, “And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” (Acts 22: 16)

Were the 3,000 at Pentecost or the Apostle Paul adding to the salvific work of Christ when they repented and were baptized? No, of course not. IMO and intending no disrespect, this phrase is a red herring intended to divert from the real issue.
May God bless us all as we attempt to sort out His will.
plaintalk

FranC · Feb 2, 2017

plaintalk said:

Hi Fran- some thoughts.
Baptism of infants creates a problem for me because IMO all responses must come from faith in God and I find it difficult to believe that the baptism of an infant is of faith on the part of the child. Without faith it is impossible to please God. However I do not believe that we are born sinners. Each of us is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Accordingly, purgatory is not an issue for me.

Acts 2: 21- Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. True, but what does it mean? What did the 3,000 in Acts 2 do, to call upon the name of the Lord. Romans 10: 14 asks the question, “How shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? IMO this strongly implies that one must believe before he can call upon the name of the Lord. The only thing they did after they believed was to repent in the name of Jesus (Luke 24: 47) and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. This appears to be confirmed by Acts 22: 16 which connects baptism with calling on the name of the Lord and by 1 Peter 3: 21 (NASB)which states that baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience and also states that baptism now saves us.

Acts 4: 12- People in the Old Testament called upon the name of the Lord in several ways, notably by prayer and offering sacrifices. However in the New Testament the term appears to have a more restrictive meaning. Saul of Tarsus (the Apostle Paul) prayed and fasted for three days and yet he was not saved as he was still in sin when Ananias, instructed by the Lord, told him, “And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” (Acts 22: 16)

Were the 3,000 at Pentecost or the Apostle Paul adding to the salvific work of Christ when they repented and were baptized? No, of course not. IMO and intending no disrespect, this phrase is a red herring intended to divert from the real issue.
May God bless us all as we attempt to sort out His will.
plaintalk

Hi Plaintalk,
I just saw this. I'm having difficulty in learning how to work this site. It doesn't seem to signal me when someone replies directly to ME.

Anyway, you bring up some good points. One being was Paul saved on the way to Damascus, or when he was baptized?
Many believe you cannot be saved without baptism. If this is what you believe, I certainly am not going to convince you otherwise, However, I'd like to answer all your points but it's past 1 a.m. here, so tomorrow.

Soon
Fran

plaintalk · Feb 6, 2017

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (Eph. 1: 13)

Does this verse prove that the Holy Spirit is received immediately upon believing the message of truth, the gospel? Well, it would appear to show that He is received after believing the message so we can conclude that those who believe the Holy Spirit is received unconditionally to regenerate and to enable one to believe are going down the wrong path but are there other options? Yes, consider, Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 38, 39) and of course we should consider Cornelius. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. (Acts 10: 44) Which one applies to us, living today? Which includes a promise to all, Jew and Gentile, and to as many as God shall call to Himself?

Of course the objection is raised, “but Ephesians 1: 13 doesn’t say anything about repentance or baptism in the name of Jesus.” To which, we reply, “Does it have to?” Can God in His sovereignty reveal His will to mankind as He wills, emphasizing what he wants at a particular time? Is there anything in this verse which would suggest that these two factors are included but simply not mentioned?

First, we notice that twice in this verse, Ephesians 1: 13, “in Christ” is mentioned, in fact “in Christ” or “in Him” is mentioned a number of times in this first chapter. In fact, “ every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1: 3) appears to be the theme of the first chapter. Redemption, the forgiveness of sin, is in Christ. (v. 7) the Holy Spirit is the seal that we are His children and the pledge or promise that He will redeem our mortal bodies at the resurrection. How do we get into Christ? We are baptized into Christ in both water, in the name of Christ, and in Spirit, the one baptism. (Rom. 6: 3; 1 Cor. 12: 13; Eph. 4: 5; Rom. 8)

Second, the Holy Spirit is given to God’s children. (Gal 4: 6) We are all children of God through faith, for as many as were baptized into Christ were clothed with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)

Third, we learn from Acts 2: 41 that those who received the word, meaningfully believed, were baptized. Why do we say “meaningfully” believed? Because there is a level of faith in which people are said to have believed, that is not meaningful. Examples: (John 2: 23- 25; 12: 42, 43) When faith in God is mingled with love for God it becomes meaningful (1 Cor. 13: 2) because those that love God will obey by keeping His commandments. (John 14: 15)

Fourth, the Holy Spirit is given to those who by faith obey. (John 7: 39; Acts 5: 32) At Pentecost the 3,000 obeyed our Lord by repenting in the name of Jesus and being baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2: 38, 39)

Fifth, although repentance is not mentioned in Eph. 1: 13, we are all commanded to repent. (Acts 17: 30)

Friends, don’t be taken in by the spiritual spin doctors, search and verify, search and verify. God bless.

mailmandan · Feb 7, 2017

plaintalk said:

That statement is the epitome of irony.

plaintalk · Feb 15, 2017

The first record of conversion after the death and resurrection of our Lord. (Acts 2)

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2: 37- 39)

What can we learn from this account?
(1) apparently the 3,000 believed (v. 44) when they heard the message and were pierced to the heart. (v. 37)
(2) this faith was not merely mental assent since baptism requires believing with all your heart. (Acts 8: 37, 38)
(3) the 3,000 were not saved at the at the “moment of faith,” as they were told to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.
(4) they did not receive the Holy Spirit at the “moment of faith”.
(5) repentance follows belief and that godly sorrow results in repentance. (2 Cor. 7: 9, 10)
(6) those that received the word were baptized. (v. 41)
(7) they called on the name of the Lord by repentance in the name of Christ and baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2: 21). Calling on the name of the Lord follows belief. (Rom. 10: 14)
God bless.

mailmandan · Feb 17, 2017

plaintalk said:

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Their belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked "trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation." They still needed to repent "change their minds" about their need for Christ to save them and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, they gladly received his word, repented and believed the gospel, then were "afterwards" water baptized. We believe with all our heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Believing in baptism as your supplemental savior is not believing with all your heart in Jesus. You cannot grasp this deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

They were saved when they repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism, just as they were in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18. Once again, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Sure they did. They received the Holy Spirit at the moment that they placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation (just as they did in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17), but not at the moment that they merely believed "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him (Acts 2:37). *Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Repentance follows "mental assent" belief but precedes saving belief in Christ. You reverse the scriptural order of repentance and saving belief/faith. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

Those that gladly received the word (through repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized, just as they were in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18.

Calling on the name of the name is not an additional requirement to become saved after saving belief in Christ. When you call upon the name of the Lord you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to call upon Him in complete trust for Him to save you. I truly hope and pray that you will come to repent "change your mind" and call upon the name of the Lord in faith to save you. Trusting in "water and works" to save you is NOT saving faith in Christ.

I truly hope and pray that you will come to repent and believe the gospel. Campbellism cannot save you but Jesus can. I will continue to pray for you.

plaintalk · Feb 20, 2017

mailmandan writes:
"We are saved at the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation BEFORE we accomplish any further acts of obedience/works (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). You are confusing the act of obedience by which we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ. The end result is salvation by works."

Response:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2: 8- 10) NASB

These verses do not claim that salvation is by faith alone; they do claim that salvation is by grace faith leaving open the question of other factors. Nor do they claim that there are no good works as verse 10 shows us; they do tell us that works based upon performance, works of the Law and works of and works of righteousness do not save, they are not based on faith in God (Gal. 3: 12) but faith in ourselves and our own righteousness. (Luke 18: 9)

Is faith our only access to the grace of God? No, faith, hope and love now abide; love is the greatest of these three; faith without love is nothing. (1 Cor. 13: 2, 13) Faith works through love (Gal. 5: 16) and we believe in hope. (Ro. 4: 18) The three, faith, hope and love work together to accomplish God’s purpose
· Faith is our introduction to the grace of God. (Rom. 5: 2)
· By faith we pass from death to life. (John 5: 24)
· By love we pass from death to life. (1 John 3: 14)
· By love we inherit eternal life. (Luke 10: 25- 28)
· God has promised a crown of life to those that love Him. (James 2: 12)
· Hope saves us. (Rom 8: 24)
· Hope purifies us. (1 John 3: 3)

Are there any works that do save? Yes, the following works are said to save.
· Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21; Rom. 10: 13)
· Repentance in the name of Christ. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
· Baptism in the name of Christ. (Mark 16: 16; 1 Pet. 3: 21)
· Confessing Christ before men. (Rom. 10: 9,10; Matt. 10: 32, 33)
· The washing of regeneration. (Titus 3: 5)
· Obeying the truth, doing good. (Rom. 2: 6- 10; Heb. 5: 9)
· Endures to the end shall be saved. (Matt. 24: 13; Heb. 3: 6; Rev. 2: 10)
· Know God and obey the gospel. (2 Thess. 1: 6- 10; 1 John 2: 3, 4; 4: 7, 8)

We are justified by faith (Rom. 5: 1), but not by faith alone. (James 2: 24) Abraham was justified by faith (Gen. 15: 6) which worked with his faith to perfect his faith. (James 2: 20) What type of work did Abraham perform? He performed works of faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance,--- (Heb. 11: 8) By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise,---(Heb. 11: 9) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac;---(Heb. 11: 17) Abraham was living by an obedient faith years before Genesis 15: 6 was given and when his faith was tested years later, his faithful obedience fulfilled that passage. (James 2: 23) [SUP]12 [/SUP]He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22: 12) Abraham’s faith was authenticated before God, not man, by his obedience. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. (Gen. 22: 18) Faith and the obedience of faith are quite compatible. Works of faith are by definition and practice “of faith,” just as the Law is “not of faith.” (Gal. 3: 12)
God bless.

plaintalk · Feb 20, 2017

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
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[h=3]Acts 16: 30- 34

[SUP]30 [/SUP]and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [SUP]31 [/SUP]They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16: 30, 31) NASB

IMO these verses are discussing “the faith that saves”; they are not discussing mental assent nor even that faith that gives us the right to become children of God (John 1: 12, 13); Paul and Silas told the jailer that if he and his household believed in the Lord Jesus in the fullest most complete sense of the term, they will be saved. This is a “perfected faith” (James 2: 20- 24), not faith alone.

What does it include? It includes a faith mingled with love, faith without love is nothing (1 Cor. 13; 2), faith works through love (Gal. 5: 6). And it includes a faith that works with works of faith to perfect that faith. When the jailer washed their wounds and set food before them, he demonstrated his repentance and when he and his people were immediately baptized, they were baptized into Christ and into His death and they were buried with Him in baptism so that they might arise with Him in the newness of life. It was only then, that they “rejoiced greatly having believed.” (v. 34)
God bless.[/h][/FONT]

notuptome · Feb 20, 2017

plaintalk said:

You are adding to the scriptures what you want them to say not what they actually say. The only baptism that is of merit in the matter of salvation is Holy Spirit baptism. Water baptism always follows Holy Spirit baptism. Water can cleanse only the outward parts of the vessel while the Holy Spirit is able to cleanse the inward parts.

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mailmandan · Feb 21, 2017

plaintalk said:

Amen! *Saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. *We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. You need to stop fighting against the truth!

Are you really that blind? Saved by grace THROUGH FAITH "apart from additions or modifications." Not saved through faith and works here but saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone. As notuptome pointed out in post #391, "You are adding to the scriptures what you want them to say not what they actually say." You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith but the shoe does not fit (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Saved FOR good works is NOT the same thing as saved by good works. Good works fall under the MORAL aspect of the law, so the Campbellite works of the law vs. works of righteousness/good works argument doesn't work. We are NOT saved by works. PERIOD. When will you BELIEVE?

Romans 5:2 - we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As I have already explained to you before, Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7). If someone has genuine saving faith in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have NO love at all. Paul uses hyperbole (obvious and intentional exaggeration) about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love. Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love though. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. In 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love.

Continued...

mailmandan · Feb 21, 2017

plaintalk said:

Not according to your "works based" false gospel. Instead of continuing to "parrot off" articles written on a church of Christ website, why don't you respond to me in your own words?

Not merely an introduction. We have access by faith into grace..

Amen! Not faith and works.

You misinterpreted. 1 John 3:14 reads - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) because we love the brethren. Believers do not love the brethren in order to pass from death to life, but believers DEMONSTRATE that they have passed from death to life BECAUSE they love the brethren. This is a DESCRIPTIVE passage of Scripture and NOT a PRESCRIPTIVE passage of Scripture. *Common error made by those who erroneously teach salvation by works.

Once again, you misinterpreted. Jesus wanted to impress on this man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation by his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making (and so did you), failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could never part with his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Descriptive of believers. We (believers) love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our (believers) hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).

Once again, If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

We are not saved by works. Period. Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

I have already explained this to you numerous times, but unfortunately, the truth continues to go right over your head.

We call on the name of the Lord in faith to receive salvation. Calling on the name of the Lord is not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ and water baptism follows saving faith in Christ. Confessing with out mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Confessing Christ before men (and not mere lip service confession) is descriptive of believers and denying Christ before men is descriptive of unbelievers. The washing of regeneration is accomplished by the Holy Spirit and not plain, ordinary H20. Obeying the truth and doing good is descriptive of genuine believers and not unbelievers. Those who endure to the end are the same one's who have been saved through faith. Only genuine believers know God (experimental knowledge and not merely theoretical knowledge) and have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Once again, your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. *ARE YOU READY TO REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?

We are justified by faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Romans 5:1), by faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (Romans 3:24-26).

You remain completely mixed up about faith and works.

There is a difference between being saved by/through faith and accomplishing a work by/out of faith.

In James 2:21, *notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works in Genesis 22. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

*The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Please pay close attention - The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Let me know when you are ready to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

mailmandan · Feb 21, 2017

plaintalk said:

Yes, BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Not believe and get baptized and you will be saved or believe and accomplish a check list of works and you will be saved, but simply BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Unfortunately, you believe in works and not exclusively in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Saving faith is (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, yet your faith in Christ is merely "mental assent" belief and your trust and reliance is in "water and works," which is not saving faith in Christ. Believing in His name is saving faith and gives us the right to become (and we actually do become children of God) when we believe in His name (John 1:12). Those who believe in His name also KNOW they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God!

The fullest most complete sense of the term is (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. It's not believe and accomplish a check list of works and then you will be saved (which is not the sense of the term), as you erroneously teach. Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merit of his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

It's not saved through faith and love or faith and works it's faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation. Then we receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5). Our faith works through love AFTER we have been saved through faith and NOT in order to become saved through faith.

Saving faith results in producing works of faith that perfect our faith AFTER we have been saved through faith in Christ. Saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. *Notice the order. You put the cart before the horse and continue to teach salvation by works.

False. They believed BEFORE they were baptized, just as they believed and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17.

Acts 16:34 simply reflects back of the fact that they rejoiced having believed, but it does not say that baptism constitutes believing. Baptism follows believing. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith in a desperate effort to accommodate your biased church doctrine and there is a reason for that - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

eternally-gratefull · Feb 21, 2017

mailmandan said:

Yes, BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Not believe and get baptized and you will be saved or believe and accomplish a check list of works and you will be saved, but simply BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Unfortunately, you believe in works and not exclusively in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Saving faith is (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, yet your faith in Christ is merely "mental assent" belief and your trust and reliance is in "water and works," which is not saving faith in Christ. Believing in His name is saving faith and gives us the right to become (and we actually do become children of God) when we believe in His name (John 1:12). Those who believe in His name also KNOW they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God! [/FONT][/COLOR]

The fullest most complete sense of the term is (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. It's not believe and accomplish a check list of works and then you will be saved (which is not the sense of the term), as you erroneously teach. Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merit of his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

It's not saved through faith and love or faith and works it's faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation. Then we receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5). Our faith works through love AFTER we have been saved through faith and NOT in order to become saved through faith.

Saving faith results in producing works of faith that perfect our faith AFTER we have been saved through faith in Christ. Saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. *Notice the order. You put the cart before the horse and continue to teach salvation by works.

False. They believed BEFORE they were baptized, just as they believed and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17.

Acts 16:34 simply reflects back of the fact that they rejoiced having believed, but it does not say that baptism constitutes believing. Baptism follows believing. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith in a desperate effort to accommodate your biased church doctrine and there is a reason for that - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

It is so sad that so many people will not make it to heaven, because although they had saving faith in Christ. They died before they had a chance to be immersed in water.

Not.. They were immersed by the HS the moment that had faith in God. So they will be in heaven with the rest of us who have faith in Christ, and him alone.

mailmandan · Feb 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

It's a shame that plain talk has been thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and is unable to see anything beyond his "water logged" false gospel.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 21, 2017

mailmandan said:

He is right there with the person who opned this thread to begin with. Sadly water baptism is the NT version of circumcision.. Jews went around demanding people be circumcized or they would not be saved. Today many in the church make the same demand of baptism.

Yet Paul already gave is the answer. We are not circumcised by the hands of men, but by the hands of the almighty God himself. Through baptism of the HS who raised him from the dead.

plaintalk · Feb 22, 2017

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” Acts 2: 38, 39) NASB
Some maintain the text should be repunctuated in light of the shift from second pleural to third person singular back to second person pleural. If so the passage would read: “Repent for/with reference to the forgiveness of your sins and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This would disassociate baptism from the idea of forgiveness of sins. Those who make such claims, realize their offerings fare better if there is reference to some truth, hoping then that their comments will be received as truthful also.
We must ask, why do the overwhelming majority of English translations not follow suit, making baptism a parenthetical concept? Surely, not because they were unaware of the Greek grammar. IMO the NASB translation, and many similar translation, reflects the original intent of Luke, the writer, not to disassociate baptism from forgiveness of sins, but to emphasize the necessity of baptism for each person. There are several independent passages that connect baptism with forgiveness of sins for the discerning disciple. We note in verse 41 that those who had received the word were baptized.
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace comments as follows in GREEK GRAMMAR, Beyond the Basics, as follows: “Such a view is an acceptable way of handling eis, but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it,” pgs. 370, paragraph (3). Dr. Wallace is a professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.
Sadly, we must realize that anyone, including A. T. Robertson, New Testament Word Pictures, can offer commentary that seems to reflect denominational agendas rather than the Scriptures. Search and verify.
God bless

mailmandan · Feb 23, 2017

plaintalk said:

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson - "One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received." The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

It's a shame that you have been thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and are unable to see anything beyond your "water logged" false gospel.

You need to place your faith in the Savior God, not the water god.

plaintalk · Feb 24, 2017

Paul wrote that every spiritual blessing, including redemption, the forgiveness of sin, is in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7; Col. 1: 14) and that we are baptized into Christ. (Rom 6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12: 13) IMO those two facts inextricably connect baptism with the forgiveness of sin.

Those who have died to the old self in baptism are freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7)

Jesus said, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16: 16)

All the spin in the world won't change the above statements. God bless.

ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

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