Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

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eternally-gratefull

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I ask for forgiveness every time I pray.
why? Are you afraid your father will not forgive you? Forgive me if this seems rude, It is not meant to be, Just asking a question.

However there are people who believe in the osas doctrine that they dont need to address their sins or ask for forgiveness because their "always saved". As if the father won't address them about it on judgement day.
And this is different from a legalist who can sin all they want as long as they do not commit these "pet" sins they always judge people for.

I mean think about what you said, According to your own words. You can excuse your own sin by asking god to forgive you.

so why stop? Go have sex with your girlfriend, Ask God to forgive you, it is ok..

Or better yet, when you fall. Go to God. Admit you were weak and fell. Thank him for forgiving you (don;t ask him to forgive you, that can actually be offensive to a loving father if you ask all the time) , Ask him to help you have more strength next time to resist. and move on.
 
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why? Are you afraid your father will not forgive you? Forgive me if this seems rude, It is not meant to be, Just asking a question. And this is different from a legalist who can sin all they want as long as they do not commit these "pet" sins they always judge people for. I mean think about what you said, According to your own words. You can excuse your own sin by asking god to forgive you. so why stop? Go have sex with your girlfriend, Ask God to forgive you, it is ok.. Or better yet, when you fall. Go to God. Admit you were weak and fell. Thank him for forgiving you (don;t ask him to forgive you, that can actually be offensive to a loving father if you ask all the time) , Ask him to help you have more strength next time to resist. and move on.
What? Who said anything about being afraid? I ask for forgiveness for anything I may have not noticed or forgot to address him about. It's out of respect to him & not treating anything as "Oh he'll forgive me anyway, im always saved" That's disrespectful & not taking sin as serious as he does. . What I have clearly stated is acknowledge the sin & ask for forgiveness. "Dont ask him to forgive you, that can actually be offensive to a loving father"? What? lmao now I've heard everything...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Why don't we ever pray for the Father to send the Lord Jesus Christ down to the earth to redeem us from our sins? It is biblical - in the Old Testament it was prophesied that God would send a Deliverer.

When we find out why we don't ask for the Father to send Jesus down to die for us and save us from our sins - in that answer - we will find the same answer concerning the forgiveness of sins.

It is the gospel message and we have word-for-word accounts of the true gospel being preached by Peter in Acts 10 and by Paul in Acts 13.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What? Who said anything about being afraid? I ask for forgiveness for anything I may have not noticed or forgot to address him about. It's out of respect to him & not treating anything as "Oh he'll forgive me anyway, im always saved" That's disrespectful & not taking sin as serious as he does. . What I have clearly stated is acknowledge the sin & ask for forgiveness. "Dont ask him to forgive you, that can actually be offensive to a loving father"? What? lmao now I've heard everything...
Asking him to forgive you is disrespectful. I will have to disagree.. No one goes to God thinking it is ok to sin. This is how I used to think, but no more..

When I go to God. God is not in the dark. He knew what sins I have committed the moment I walk into his presence. I can not hide anything from him. We must try not to make God to be human, He is omniscient. He knew every thought you had the last 24 hours. Every act you did. Every act you failed to do that you were supposed to do (which is sin) and the reason or hearty behin every sin.

In fact,. He not only knows the past 24 hours. He knows the next 24 hours (things which you have yet to do or fail to do) in reality, He knows everything I did from birth, and will do until death.

So the fact I am ALLOWED to enter his presence to even acknowledge my sin is PROOF I am already forgiven, if not, I would not be able to even enter into his presence.

Since God knows all my sin, I do not mock him and ask forgiveness. He confronts me, and reports all. My sin to me (he is the one who convicts me of sin) and asks me about them, I acknowledge I did them.(confess) and then seek his guidance on what I need to do next time..
 
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Asking him to forgive you is disrespectful. I will have to disagree.. No one goes to God thinking it is ok to sin. This is how I used to think, but no more.. When I go to God. God is not in the dark. He knew what sins I have committed the moment I walk into his presence. I can not hide anything from him. We must try not to make God to be human, He is omniscient. He knew every thought you had the last 24 hours. Every act you did. Every act you failed to do that you were supposed to do (which is sin) and the reason or hearty behin every sin. In fact,. He not only knows the past 24 hours. He knows the next 24 hours (things which you have yet to do or fail to do) in reality, He knows everything I did from birth, and will do until death. So the fact I am ALLOWED to enter his presence to even acknowledge my sin is PROOF I am already forgiven, if not, I would not be able to even enter into his presence. Since God knows all my sin, I do not mock him and ask forgiveness. He confronts me, and reports all. My sin to me (he is the one who convicts me of sin) and asks me about them, I acknowledge I did them.(confess) and then seek his guidance on what I need to do next time..
So you believe it's mockery to ask him for forgiveness wow that's a first but goodluck with that.
 
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MattTooFor

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One is born of the flesh. When he dies, his flesh dies.
One is born of the spirit, if he abandons the life-giving force of Jesus, and denies God, does he still have God's spirit??
I say NO.
An UNBELIEVER CANNOT have in him the spirit of God.
You can't have "eternal life" and yet still die...otherwise it wasn't eternal life!

So...You say:
whom God foreknows, He predestines to salvation
True. God foreknows all who will be saved. He knew before anyone was born, who would be saved.
And those that were saved would be conformed the the image of His Son, Jesus - the first-born among many brethren.
Romans 8:29
I wasn't quite clear on why you're restating all of this? But this verse DOES mean there are people whose names are already written down in the Book of Life. They ARE saved, period. BUT they don't get to know that in advance. They don't get an advance 'sneak peek' at the Book of Life!

Again, once you have "eternal life"...you have eternal life. Eternal life is either eternal or it isn't. If someone has life and loses it...it wasn't "eternal" to begin with. You're either immortal or you're not.

I sin every day. I don't have to wait for it to creep in. I never ask myself any tought questions. I KNOW I'm a sinner. We all are. There is no fear of the Lord. There is LOVE for the Lord, which is what makes us WANT to obey Him. To the best of our ability. We will Always fail.
I guess I'm not following your logic: You're saying there are people who fall into unbelief and lose their salvation. At what point should an individual who is at least seeming to be headed in that direction begin to have some fear?
 
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We do and can know that in Christ we do have now ( present tense ) eternal life and it is because we believe in the name of the Son of God. Yes we will die physically until the Lord comes back to give us new bodies.

The body is dead because of sin but the spirit is alive because of righteousness Rom 8:10

Take up shooting heroin in your arms today and you will die quicker than you need to. All the works of the flesh bring destruction of some sort to us. From malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ - to living a homosexual lifestyle. They are in the same lists as works of the flesh.

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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So you believe it's mockery to ask him for forgiveness wow that's a first but goodluck with that.

so you think God will not forgive you unless you ask?

and I must ask. Did you read anything I said?
 
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so you think God will not forgive you unless you ask? and I must ask. Did you read anything I said?
Yea I read what you put however I choose to address him that way. Out of respect for the holy father he is. You are the first I ever heard say he would be "offended" if his children ask him for forgiveness. But you can live your spiritual life however you choose to.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yea I read what you put however I choose to address him that way. Out of respect for the holy father he is. You are the first I ever heard say he would be "offended" if his children ask him for forgiveness. But you can live your spiritual life however you choose to.

1. You added to what I said, I never said you can live your spiritual life the way I want to. I never said that

2. You never answered me, I said do you have to ask God to forgive you to be forgiven.

3. I show my father respect. By admitting and confessing my sin. Why do you think that is disrespectful?

 
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1. You added to what I said, I never said you can live your spiritual life the way I want to. I never said that 2. You never answered me, I said do you have to ask God to forgive you to be forgiven. 3. I show my father respect. By admitting and confessing my sin. Why do you think that is disrespectful?
What? I never said you said that. That's me telling you if you want to live your spiritual life however you decide to go ahead. i have told you repeatedly I ask him for forgiveness. It's known that God is forgiving. I choose to address him specifically on whatever it may be . I didn't say your situation is disrespectful but I do find it strange you view forgiveness as mockery or disrespectful to ask him. But your entitled to whatever opinions you may have.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What? I never said you said that. That's me telling you if you want to live your spiritual life however you decide to go ahead. i have told you repeatedly I ask him for forgiveness. It's known that God is forgiving. I choose to address him specifically on whatever it may be . I didn't say your situation is disrespectful but I do find it strange you view forgiveness as mockery or disrespectful to ask him. But your entitled to whatever opinions you may have.
forgive me, I get told that by so many, when you said it I assumed you were like the rest.

so I must ask again, Why have you failed to answer my question. Is asking for forgiveness required to continue to be forgiven? I ask because many say it is, I want your opinion.

 

Bladerunner

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Aug 22, 2016
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[FONT=&]
Eternal Security
You CANNOT lose your salvation!
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by David J. Stewart | January 2004 | Updated October 2014


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If you are a parent, your child didn't make a commitment to become your child; but rather, they were born to become your child. Likewise, we are born-again to become God's child. Just as a child has absolutely NOTHING to do with his or her own birth, neither does the Christian have anything to do with their spiritual birth. It is completely of God. Our part is done the moment we receive Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God—believing that He died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and raised up from the dead three days later (1st Corinthians 15:1-4). John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”



I have read many of the replies to on this thread and most everything has been covered very complete.

However, I thought I might put 'my two cents worth' into the last paragraph. You compared the inability to an adult to get Salvation from Jesus to a Child being born form the parents point of view.

Look at it from the Child's view. He has no ability to PICK his parents. . Everyone that is not in a third world country should count their blessings.

Unlike the unborn baby who has no ability to pick his parents or a small child of unknowing age has not the knowledge to make the decision that Jesus gave us; Men, Women and 'Children of Age', do have that ability to chose which lifestyle they will follow.

They can decide to go to the 'Dark Side' (Satan) or to the Light Side of Jesus Christ. The Gift of Salvation was laid on the shelf for all to receive when Jesus shed His blood on the Cross. There was neither NO stipulations nor regulations on what has to be done FIRST prior to receiving this Gift. 'All one has to do is call out His name and believe in the His Gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

While I am at it, let me give my opinion concerning "Work". It is not necessary to receiving the Gift of Salvation, However, if one is true at heart, 'Good Works will manifest itself within you henceforth.

Not everyone is called to be a preacher, minister, Bible teacher, missionary, etc. Good Works does not simply JUST INCLUDE ONLY the types previously mentioned. It can be anything beneficial to Man to simply living in the Light of Jesus Christ. A Christian living according to the preachings of the disciples as set forth by Jesus Christ, can/will set the stage for others that are not saved to see the benefits of living in His Light leading them to salvation as well. Yet, if one ask some of the Churches (denominations) if these people have fulfilled their obligations for salvation to take place, 9 times out of 10, they are going to be condemned for not following a ' set of man made rules' as set forth by the Denomination.

As I state in my signature, the Holy Spirit that is received as part of the Gift of Salvation, will protect, teach and guide you in what is known as 'your Calling'. You need no other than to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ then follow and listen to the Holy Spirit within you.
 
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Since God knows all my sin, I do not mock him and ask forgiveness.

He confronts me, and reports all.

My sin to me (he is the one who convicts me of sin) and asks me about them, I acknowledge I did them.(confess) and then seek his guidance on what I need to do next time..
It is an interesting idea that asking for mercy or forgiveness is mocking God.
Christ came and died on the cross to bring forgiveness of our sins by faith.
Accepting forgiveness through the cross is part of the process.

In a sense asking for forgiveness, assumes God would not give it, if we have repented
of the sin, but the cross is His guarantee of forgiveness for a repentant heart.

Through everything written about conviction of sin, there is no repentance only conviction.
Confession is admitting the sin and telling of the commitment to not repeat it.

So before the cross it is acknowledging Gods forgiveness through the cross, more than
asking for forgiveness.

So the fact I am ALLOWED to enter his presence to even acknowledge my sin is PROOF I am already forgiven, if not, I would not be able to even enter into his presence.
The idea that prayer implies you are already forgiven, is a new idea to me.
We can enter Gods presence by His grace. And His grace is exercised through
faith. But forgiveness comes because of repentance, without which forgiveness
is not provided. So the logic EG is presenting is flawed.
 
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I agree that the old man is dead and that the flesh is not the real us. For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God Col.3:3 - so we are not "dying to ourselves" - we are to actually live to our true selves because we are one with Christ in our spirit now.

We are not the flesh but we are responsible with what we do in these bodies that house the new man in Christ. The flesh still has the law of sin in it and it wants to do things to fulfill "it's" desires. Romans 7:23

It's important to locate the new man in Christ that is joined to the Lord as one spirit by the Holy Spirit who has sealed us when we believed of whom Jesus said would be in us and with us forever. John 14:16

There is a putting aside of the old habits and ways of the old man ( who is now dead as a door nail that died with Christ on the cross ) when we were in them but now we put on the new man in Christ. Eph. 4:22 says that "in reference to your former manner of living". Col. 3:9-10 is a sister scripture to this one too and sheds more light on it. This is not living by the flesh but by the new man by the spirit.

It is living by the spirit that "we put to death the deeds of the body". Romans 8:13

Gosh Grace. I read your post and it sounds to me like you never sin!
Here's what you state:

The old man is dead.
We are to live to our TRUE selves.
There's a "putting aside" of the old habits.
If we all sinned every day NONE of us would be righteous.

What to say? Are you saying we don't sin anymore?

My old man is still around. He's called "Sin Nature." He won't go away no matte what.

What does living to our "true selves" mean? I'm just doing the best I can.

Sometimes old habits can be put aside, and sometimes they cannot. Ask any born again believer how THEY did with old habits... The answer varies from person to person.

We DO all SIN EVERYDAY. So this means we're not righteous in the eyes of God?

What if I can't live up to your ideals? You're sounding a bit legalistic.


The scripture you quoted above in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a description of unrighteous people - it is an identity. Then Paul in verse 11 "describes" the believer in Christ ( and yes they still do sin but that is not their identity now )

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

What does "Identity" mean?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is describing who cannot get into heaven. Unborn again persons who do not worship God.
So my point is that IF one falls away from the faith that SAVES HIM, and returns to his former UNBELIEVING life, HOW can he ever be saved if he tramples upon the sacrifice of Christ?
Hebrews 6:4-6



I encourage you to look at the above verse in the Greek verb tenses and you will see that these are one time events settled as being done in God's mind and heart because of Christ.

If we all sinned every day as you say - then none of us would be righteous and be with the Lord when we died. Of course our righteousness which is based on Christ only has nothing to do with our behavior. But as we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has already done for us - we grow up in Him and have more of His life reflecting in our behavior as He manifests His life in and through us.

Faith is of the heart and not of in the head. We can be sick in our minds because of situations in our lives which can distort our view of who God is, and bad teachings about who we are in Christ...etc. All these can warp out thought life and have our faith for living and experiencing some of the promises of God while on this earth.

Anyway - those are just my current views on the subject and this understanding has radically changed my Christian life and living by faith in all that Christ has already done for us.....:)

All of us are learning as we grow in the Lord and I just post my views and leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and hopefully we can all grow together.

I agree with your last paragraphs. There are some little nuances I might not be understanding.

As far as Greek, yeah, I could get into the Greek, but why? The bible is understood the same way even in English, although the Greek is richer and has more words that explain entire concepts. The concepts come through anyway since no one doctrine is based on any one verse.

Fran
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
We do and can know that in Christ we do have now ( present tense ) eternal life and it is because we believe in the name of the Son of God. Yes we will die physically until the Lord comes back to give us new bodies.
You cannot have "absolute" knowledge of your own salvation. Only God has an absolute grasp of knowledge. He certainly places "absolute truth" in front of us in the form of the Bible. But no man has an absolute grasp of the truth nor an absolute grasp of ANY knowledge. We are finite. Any given human being's grasp of the facts is subject to error and subject to limitation.

That's why the Bible says "he who assumes he knows something, does not yet know it as he ought".

There are many, many people who think they "know" they're saved...and they're not. Just a fact of life.
 

Enow

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You cannot have "absolute" knowledge of your own salvation. Only God has an absolute grasp of knowledge. He certainly places "absolute truth" in front of us in the form of the Bible. But no man has an absolute grasp of the truth nor an absolute grasp of ANY knowledge. We are finite. Any given human being's grasp of the facts is subject to error and subject to limitation.

That's why the Bible says "he who assumes he knows something, does not yet know it as he ought".

There are many, many people who think they "know" they're saved...and they're not. Just a fact of life.
They are many many former believers who think they are not saved, and they are. Just the truth which reproves your fact of life as not a fact at all.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

See how the vessels unto dishonor that did not depart from iniquity are still in His House? You want more proof of what I have shared that former believers are still saved? Okay.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

How can verse 12 & 13 go together? How can vessels unto dishonor that did not depart from iniquity, still be in His House?

At the pre tribulational rapture event, God will judge His House first; those not abiding in Him as His disciples will be taken whereas those found in iniquity are castaways and thus left behind and that is how they become vessels unto dishonor in His House to be received later on of their inheritance after the great tribulation for He will lose none of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39-40 )

So eternal security is "secured" BUT not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him as His disciples by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them as their Good Shepherd to discern by the KJV in laying aside every weight & sin in running that race as He will finish His work in us which is to His glory. They will be left behind, but Jesus will finish His work in them even though they did not look to Him earlier to help them run that race by faith in Him as their Good Shepherd.
 
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Gosh Grace. I read your post and it sounds to me like you never sin!
Here's what you state:

The old man is dead.
We are to live to our TRUE selves.
There's a "putting aside" of the old habits.
If we all sinned every day NONE of us would be righteous.

1) What to say? Are you saying we don't sin anymore?

2) My old man is still around. He's called "Sin Nature." He won't go away no matte what.

3) What does living to our "true selves" mean? I'm just doing the best I can.

Sometimes old habits can be put aside, and sometimes they cannot. Ask any born again believer how THEY did with old habits... The answer varies from person to person.

We DO all SIN EVERYDAY. So this means we're not righteous in the eyes of God?

What if I can't live up to your ideals? You're sounding a bit legalistic.


The scripture you quoted above in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a description of unrighteous people - it is an identity. Then Paul in verse 11 "describes" the believer in Christ ( and yes they still do sin but that is not their identity now )

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

4) What does "Identity" mean?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is describing who cannot get into heaven. Unborn again persons who do not worship God.
So my point is that IF one falls away from the faith that SAVES HIM, and returns to his former UNBELIEVING life, HOW can he ever be saved if he tramples upon the sacrifice of Christ?
Hebrews 6:4-6




I agree with your last paragraphs. There are some little nuances I might not be understanding.

5) As far as Greek, yeah, I could get into the Greek, but why? The bible is understood the same way even in English, although the Greek is richer and has more words that explain entire concepts. The concepts come through anyway since no one doctrine is based on any one verse.

Fran


I will answer according to your questions and I have responded in a color code to reflect what you have asked about:

1) I am not saying that we never sin anymore. I actually said the very opposite. There is a difference between "sin" and "sinning". Here is a post where that is talked about. Without understanding the difference - we get this sinless perfection in the flesh false doctrine that some people make up.

Here is the link for that :

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...have-dominion-over-us-christ.html#post2835447

2) This is where the problem is - the old man is definitely dead. We need to know this. This "sin nature" that you have given a title to is not in the scriptures. We only have one true nature and that is the one born of God - the new creation in Christ. What is left over in the flesh are the "ways and habits" that were part of the old man's way of getting life before we became new creations in Christ.

I have posted scriptures "proving" that the old man is dead so many times nut I will just leave this one for now.

Romans 6:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It is obvious you are not understanding what I am saying because I am the very opposite of legalistic. I am saying that whether you sin today or don't sin today - you are the righteousness of God in Christ. He makes you righteous.

3) "Living to ourselves" simply means walking by the spirit - which is the real us on the inside - the true nature which has been created in righteousness and holiness - the new creation in Christ. We are learning how to live by His life inside of us and thus there is no condemnation as we are learning to rely on Him and His life in us while we are in this body.

4) Identity is who you are in Christ. You are a child of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is a description of unbelievers - yes.

Hebrews 6 has been addressed so many times now but here is a thread that deals specifically with this and the often mis-interpreted Heb. 10:26-29 scripture as well.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

If you see every warning scripture about living from the flesh as meaning that you don't go to heaven and go to hell instead then every Chrsitian is doomed because all of us live by the flesh to some degree or other.

5) The reason for understanding the Greek is because then it will be obvious that once we are in Christ we are sealed with Him forever. The Greek tenses prove this very thing.
 
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I personally believe that believers joined as one spirit with the Lord and that become new creation in Christ - that they some how become "un-born again" and become un-joined with the Lord - is the #1 worse doctrine that has ever been perpetrated on the body of Christ.

This false doctrine has caused more harm to immature believers than any other doctrine.

It causes them to trust in themselves - in what they can do to make themselves saved. It is a grace-killer. We live by faith in what grace has provided in Christ. The whole Christian life from start to finish is based on what Christ has already done by His grace and it is accessed by faith. The hearing of Christ brings faith. Rom. 10:17

True faith is of the heart and not in the mind of man. It is with the heart that man believes. We can get screwy in our thinking because of circumstances and false teachings.

Take the teaching where God kills your little children because you somehow did something wrong. That would cause your emotions and mind to become a mess and not trust God from an emotional and mind frame point of view - yet your heart - the inner man in Christ is still in righteousness and holiness because it is joined as one to the Lord.

It brings dis-trust to the Lord who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you." It makes Jesus a liar when He said " The Holy Spirit with be with you and in you forever". John 14:16

How can you trust someone when they say one thing but "actually mean something totally different?" You can't. The doctrine of losing salvation as in the Lord will be separated from you undermines the human being's ability to trust in the Lord at a heart and emotional level.

I have a medical background and have heard psychiatrists talk about a lot of people in asylums and with mental disorders are from religious Christian backgrounds where they feel they have done some thing and the Lord has forsaken them.

The preaching and teaching of the grace and love of God is exactly what is needed to grow up in Christ so that the situations of life don't wreck our lives here on earth. Jesus and the apostles always talked about "life" and not losing one's salvation as in not being with the Lord.

They had a lot to say about the deeds of the body here on earth and what destruction they can bring in this life as well - these are great admonishments for us and these warnings are a blessing to us.

But let's not water down the gospel because of fear of mis-use. The gospel is the power of God for salvation. We need to hear the gospel every day.
I could not disagree with you more regarding your statement that loss of eternal security is a FALSE doctrine that causes immature believers harm.

I like how PeterJens worded it in post no. 325.
"Salvation is a WALK, not an ARRIVING"

I will be saved for eternity if my heart still resides in Jesus at the end of my life. And ONLY if it is. Jesus made this clear.

OSAS is the FALSE teaching. This teaching DID NOT EXIST in the Church until the Birth of John Calvin.
I've posted many times what the early Fathers taught about eternal salvation. THEY are the ones that were closest to Jesus.

I'll post some again here:

Such is the subject of this post. It seems that in regards to the idea that once someone “believes unto salvation” that there is no chance they will not continue in that state to the end, our Father’s protest.

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

Et cetera, et cetera…

While they may disagree with one another on this point or that point, the one consistent theme which they seem to agree on is that even “after obtaining salvation” – as Tertullian puts it – one may be “disinherited by Him” (to quote Irenaeus) if they cease to be faithful (which is inextricably tied up to obedience according to Hebrews 4).

And by the way, I find Origen’s thoughts to be of particular interest. Apparently during the first few centuries of the Church – that is, prior to Augustine – it was the heretics who promised salvation “in such a way that they cannot be lost.”


No one is saying to trust in ones self. If we could save ourselves, why would Jesus have had to die? Everyone knows that we are in need of atonement.

It's VERY Dangerous to teach a new believer that he can never lose his salvation. IOW, according to your belief, a person could accept Jesus into his heart at the age of 20. Then at 35 decide that it's all a lot of lies, deny God and Jesus, no longer accept Jesus' sacrifice as expiation of sins, do whatever he wants to, and still be saved?

This sounds like a much more Dangerous concept to me than WARNING someone that Jesus HIMSELF warned against falling away, as did Paul and all the N.T. Writers.

There are many verses that attest to this, but when the believers of eternal security look for verses it's Always necessary to twist scripture to get it to mean what they would want.

You say it is with the heart that man believes unto salvation.
What if I stop believing?

I don't understand your remark about God Killing children. It sounds sick to me. Jesus was asked for whose sin was the man blind, his or his parents. Jesus said neither but to glorify God, to show what God could do. No one was to blame.

Your right that Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you". HE NEVER WILL. However, WE could leave HIM.
Jesus said "whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before My Father." Mathew 10:33
It doesn't matter WHEN we deny Jesus, it just matter that we DO deny Him. Before or After being born again, our action is the same and His action will be the same. God does not lie.

My believing in loss of salvation DOES NOT undermine my trust in the Lord. It makes me trust Him MORE. It makes me understand even more how much I really need Him.

The psychological problems you're speaking about are found a lot in the Catholic Church. The condition is called
scrupulosity. People who constantly worry about having sinned and not being forgiven. This is carried over to other parts of their lives. They fail to understand how much God loves them and constantly go to confession. THEY would never believe in OSAS! They can't even reason correctly!

So, yes. Let's preach Grace and the love of God for us and our love for Him.
Let's also not put Others in danger. The bible is full of warnings.

John 15:1 " I am the true vine and My Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit."

John 15:5 "IF ANYONE does NOT REMAIN in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers, such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned"

Romans 11:17-21 New International Version (NIV)

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


Colossians 1:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

There are so many warnings both from Jesus and the Writers of the N.T. that it would take many posts to list them all.
I believe it would behoove all of us to pay heed to their warnings.


Fran
 
Apr 30, 2016
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My free will caused me to ask him to save me. because I could not save myself. And he promised that no matter what, He will never let me go, EVER..

Please post some scriptures where it states that JESUS said that, NO MATTER WHAT, He will never let you go.
I agree that He will never let you go, but not NO MATTER WHAT. If you decide to start Killing people, I think He WOULD let you go. There are many scriptues about holding firm. You could read my above post to Grace777x70.



No, That's a lie. Thats a strawman argument, used to put down something people do not understand. I have free will.


I don't know what a strawman is, but I can tell you that if you CANNOT walk away from God, that means that your free will HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY. If it weren't taken away, you'd be able to decide to abandon God!



Because God promised me I will never die, I will live forever, I will never hunger and thirst, I HAVE in my possession eternal life. I willbe risen on thee last day, I have passed from death to Life. I have been made a new creature in christ, I have been given the HS as a seal, I have been justified freely, I have been given all things in christ, I have been adopted by God as his child. I was given the right why? Because I have believed in his name (trusted in him)

And these are just a few reasons as stated as facts from the word of God


Everything you say above is correct. And in every case you state that you ARE IN CHRIST. What if you're not? Are you still saved? Your faith saved you. If you lose your faith, are you still saved? Please show from scripture a verse that shows someone has lost their faith and are still saved.

all I can ask is this, Why do you lack faith in God? Why are you not holding onto the promises of God and still trying to save yourself? (I ask, because if you had faith like I do. non of the things you are using to deny eternal security would make a bit of sense to you.)


You don't know if I have faith or not. I didn't comment on the status of YOUR faith and it would be nice if you reciprocated the courtesy

Fran
 
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