The Nicene Creed

[Enow]

I take it you are saying you are more Spiritually enlightened than the writers of the Nicene Creed, and are you trying to say that they were not disciples of Jesus Christ?

Are you saying that the writers of the Nicene creed were more enlightened than the disciples of Jesus Christ? Then you can see how they are stepping away from what the disciples have taught and what the Father's will is in scripture; and so yes... in this, they are not His disciples because they were not abiding in His word nor the Father's will.

They are still His as in saved, but unless they had repented, this iniquity shall cost them their seat at the Marriage Supper where they will become castaways and be left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

You post makes no sense. Again I'll refer you back to post #9 and the following link that actually handles scripture rightly :
https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-Holy-Spirit.html


P.s, If you don't want to believe the whole counsel of the word regarding the triune God, that's your problem. As I am sure you are well aware that the Nicene Creed was written in defence of those with errors and heresies regarding the Godhead!

I believe in the Triune God but they jumped the gun by assuming because the Holy Spirit is God, we are to worship Him with the Father & the Son when there is no teaching to the N.T. churches to do that, BUT there are scripture on the Father's will on how He does want us to come to Him in worship which is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) and the only way to honor the Father is to honor the Son ( John 5:22-23 ) and the Holy Spirit is leading us to do the Father's will, not the assumption of His will which is not in scripture as done by the writers of the Nicene creed.

PS There are other unBiblical errors in that Nicene creed that was mentioned earlier: not just about reproving the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

 

[phil36]

Are you saying that the writers of the Nicene creed were more enlightened than the disciples of Jesus Christ? Then you can see how they are stepping away from what the disciples have taught and what the Father's will is in scripture; and so yes... in this, they are not His disciples because they were not abiding in His word nor the Father's will.

They are still His as in saved, but unless they had repented, this iniquity shall cost them their seat at the Marriage Supper where they will become castaways and be left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.



I believe in the Triune God but they jumped the gun by assuming because the Holy Spirit is God, we are to worship Him with the Father & the Son when there is no teaching to the N.T. churches to do that, BUT there are scripture on the Father's will on how He does want us to come to Him in worship which is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) and the only way to honor the Father is to honor the Son ( John 5:22-23 ) and the Holy Spirit is leading us to do the Father's will, not the assumption of His will which is not in scripture as done by the writers of the Nicene creed.

PS There are other unBiblical errors in that Nicene creed that was mentioned earlier: not just about reproving the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

You have failed repeatedly to convince that you are correct. Especially in reference to the Holy Spirit as Life giver and can be worshiped (biblical evidence has been provided to you)

The Biblical witness is clear and church history also agrees with the veracity and truthfulness, that the Nicene creed is correct. And yes I agree John 14:6 is correct, the only way to the Father is through the son . Jesus says 'I am the way the truth and life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

You have failed to disprove what the Nicene creed says here:

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life. (--------------- see post #9)
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. (See link provided)

https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-Holy-Spirit.html



And especially of scriptural proof, with which you have failed repeatably to engage. How can anyone take your other claims seriously I ask?

 

[Zmouth]

I haven't a clue how you get the above idea zmouth, I never said that nor any of the links... Sometimes we need to think when we read.. look at that word 'GIVES'.

"The creating Spirit (or breath) of God gives and sustains life"

Originally Posted by phil36

The Holy Spirit is not the giver of Life?

3290 Holy Spirit, the life-giver

Through the Holy Spirit, God gives birth to and supports both natural and spiritual life. For this reason, Scripture likens the Holy Spirit to life-giving water.
The creating Spirit (or breath) of God gives and sustains life

Ge 1:2 See also Ge 2:7; Job 26:13; Job 27:3; Job 32:8 fn; Job 33:4; Job 34:14 fn; Ps 33:6; Ps 104:30

Not a clue? Really?

What is (breath) except the breath of life that the LORD God breathed in the nostril of the man who became a living soul.

 

[phil36]

Not a clue? Really?

What is (breath) except the breath of life that the LORD God breathed in the nostril of the man who became a living soul.

Your original post makes no biblical sense..

For an answer see post #9

 

[StanJ]

Matthew 1:20... Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit when he was, not before all ages.
Additionally the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and does not proceed from the Father and the Son.

 

[StanJ]

Our sins are forgiven through our Salvation not by baptism and there is no Apostolic Church. Jesus is the head of the church.

 

[phil36]

Matthew 1:20... Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit when he was, not before all ages.
Additionally the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and does not proceed from the Father and the Son.


Our sins are forgiven through our Salvation not by baptism and there is no Apostolic Church. Jesus is the head of the church.

Hi Stanj,

Thanks for your input. A ouple of questions just to clarify what it is you are saying.

-- What do you mean Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit when he was?

-- more of a statement - I take it you agree with the eastern church regarding the filique clause?

-- Do you know what is mean't in 'one baptism, in the creed (I'm presuming you don't).

-- What do you think the writers mean't by 'one Holy catholic and apostolic church? Surely you are not reading later ecclesiastical history into their writing are you?

Both West and East see this Creed as Trinitarian, you are aware of that?

The Nicene Creed, also called the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed, is a statement of the orthodox faith of the early Christian church in opposition to certain heresies, especially Arianism. These heresies, which disturbed the church during the fourth century, concerned the doctrine of the trinity and of the person of Christ. Both the Greek (Eastern) and the Latin (Western) church held this creed in honor, though with one important difference: the Western church insisted on the inclusion of the phrase "and the Son" (known as the "filioque") in the article on the procession of the Holy Spirit; this phrase still is repudiated by the Eastern Orthodox church. In its present form this creed goes back partially to the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) with additions by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381)

 

[Zmouth]

Our sins are forgiven through our Salvation not by baptism

Forgiven by your salvation, because you believe in God you are forgiven of your sins, well is it written the devils believe in God also and tremble according to the scriptures, maybe they tremble because they know that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

and there is no Apostolic Church.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl 9:4-5

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:22-23

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Luke 21:3-4

Jesus is the head of the church.

Of course he is. [See 2 Cor 13:5]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Isaiah 9:7

[video=youtube;Kq3kxtDJxR0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq3kxtDJxR0[/video]

 

[StanJ]

Hi Stanj,

Thanks for your input. A couple of questions just to clarify what it is you are saying.

-- What do you mean Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit when he was?

-- more of a statement - I take it you agree with the eastern church regarding the filique clause?

-- Do you know what is mean't in 'one baptism, in the creed (I'm presuming you don't).

-- What do you think the writers mean't by 'one Holy catholic and apostolic church? Surely you are not reading later ecclesiastical history into their writing are you?

Both West and East see this Creed as Trinitarian, you are aware of that?

The Nicene Creed, also called the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed, is a statement of the orthodox faith of the early Christian church in opposition to certain heresies, especially Arianism. These heresies, which disturbed the church during the fourth century, concerned the doctrine of the trinity and of the person of Christ. Both the Greek (Eastern) and the Latin (Western) church held this creed in honor, though with one important difference: the Western church insisted on the inclusion of the phrase "and the Son" (known as the "filioque") in the article on the procession of the Holy Spirit; this phrase still is repudiated by the Eastern Orthodox church. In its present form this creed goes back partially to the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) with additions by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381)

Hi Phil, that's more than a couple.

- Matthew 1:20 indicates when and by whom Jesus was begotten.

- I really don't care about the arguments between the eastern and western churches regarding what was or wasn't in the original Nicene Creed. It is not scripture so it has no bearing upon what I believe at all.

- Well as the one baptism is only used in the version of 381, I'm going to assume that refers to water baptism.

- I really have no idea what they meant to say but the words indicate a Universal and Apostolic church with Apostolic succession. The Universal part is Scriptural, but the Apostolic part is not scriptural. Scripture teaches there is only one universal church headed by Jesus Christ but in actuality it is split into three or four different factions. I can accept the 325 version but I cannot accept the 381 version and regardless, we don't identify ourselves by what version of the Nicene Creed we accept or don't accept, we identify with who we accept as our savior and as such anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their savior is part of The Universal Church of Christ headed by Jesus himself.

I do understand that the original reason for issuing the Nicene Creed was because of Arianism, but sadly the second version goes way over the top in defending the trinitarian viewpoint and ends up going against the Canon of scripture we now have. Regardless, the modern-day trinitarian concept is orthodox to Christianity and is supported in scripture. Only Unitarians and Pentecostal Oneness groups teach contrary to that.

 

[mailmandan]

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.

"Catholic" as in "universal" and not the Roman Catholic institution.

 

[phil36]

"Catholic" as in "universal" and not the Roman Catholic institution.

Hi mailmandan,

Yes, it means 'universal' that's why it is small 'c'.

 

[StanJ]

Forgiven by your salvation, because you believe in God you are forgiven of your sins, well is it written the devils believe in God also and tremble according to the scriptures, maybe they tremble because they know that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Forgiven because of salvation and yes because I believe in Jesus as being my savior and confessed him as such. Rom 10:9-11, and you're taking James out of context.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl 9:4-5
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:22-23
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Luke 21:3-4

Did you have an actual point to make in quoting all this scripture?

Of course he is. [See 2 Cor 13:5]
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Isaiah 9:7

Again do you have an actual point to make by rattling off all this scripture?

 

[phil36]

Hi Phil, that's more than a couple.

- Matthew 1:20 indicates when and by whom Jesus was begotten.

- I really don't care about the arguments between the eastern and western churches regarding what was or wasn't in the original Nicene Creed. It is not scripture so it has no bearing upon what I believe at all.

- Well as the one baptism is only used in the version of 381, I'm going to assume that refers to water baptism.

- I really have no idea what they meant to say but the words indicate a Universal and Apostolic church with Apostolic succession. The Universal part is Scriptural, but the Apostolic part is not scriptural. Scripture teaches there is only one universal church headed by Jesus Christ but in actuality it is split into three or four different factions. I can accept the 325 version but I cannot accept the 381 version and regardless, we don't identify ourselves by what version of the Nicene Creed we accept or don't accept, we identify with who we accept as our savior and as such anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their savior is part of The Universal Church of Christ headed by Jesus himself.

I do understand that the original reason for issuing the Nicene Creed was because of Arianism, but sadly the second version goes way over the top in defending the trinitarian viewpoint and ends up going against the Canon of scripture we now have. Regardless, the modern-day trinitarian concept is orthodox to Christianity and is supported in scripture. Only Unitarians and Pentecostal Oneness groups teach contrary to that.

Hi stanj,

Just a lot of opinion, you don't even know what one baptism means, and what is very obvious from your post above you have not a clue what is mean't by apostolic church.. As I say your arguments seem to be based on ignorance. The modern day orthodox trinitarain view is Nicene. Apart from the filique clause, there is nothing in the Nicene creed regarding the Trinity that you can scripturally disagree with stanj, so again your point is mute! Actually very mute!

I find it interesting the people in this thread who have attacked an orthodox Christian teaching, cannot use scripture to prove their point. That shows that the writers based their creed on Scripture. And yes I agree stanj the creed is not scripture, but it is a faithful representation of what scripture says on the Trinity. I certainly identify with the Trinitarian formula of the Creed. but my Identity is Christ

Regarding apostolic church, What do you think the protestant view is? over against the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Oriental and church of East.

 

[JaumeJ]

Rather than to labor over a creed or a conclave, nothing will outweigh the
Word of god on any given subject. It is nice to know that men came
together to agree upon by vote that Jesus christ is God, but it is easiest and
ture to read the Word and believe it.

When people vote on truth, God is not impressed. When a person says "I agree with God" on any given matter, He was not
waiting for his ok. You see God teaches us, not a group of men voting on truth or even on
doctrine or dogma.

All men arrive at in the human manner is a new and unprovable denomination to which God does not belong. Ask Him!!

 

[StanJ]

Hi stanj,
Just a lot of opinion, you don't even know what one baptism means, and what is very obvious from your post above you have not a clue what is mean't by apostolic church.. As I say your arguments seem to be based on ignorance. The modern day orthodox trinitarain view is Nicene. Apart from the filique clause, there is nothing in the Nicene creed regarding the Trinity that you can scripturally disagree with stanj, so again your point is mute! Actually very mute!

Yes my opinion based on the man-made document that had no inspiration of God whatsoever unlike the scriptures and which does not agree with the scripture. Again as I've stated before it doesn't really matter what baptism means here because it does not relate to the Bible whatsoever.

I find it interesting the people in this thread who have attacked an orthodox Christian teaching, cannot use scripture to prove their point. That shows that the writers based their creed on Scripture. And yes I agree stanj the creed is not scripture, but it is a faithful representation of what scripture says on the Trinity. I certainly identify with the Trinitarian formula of the Creed. but my Identity is Christ.

It's not an Orthodox Christian teaching it is supposed to be a statement of summation as to what Christianity was and it did a bad job at doing it. The Apostles Creed is closer to reality of the Bible then the Nicene Creed is. There are other Christian Creeds that are much closer to the Bible than the Nicene Creed is. Regardless a creep is not infallible and does not always represent God's inspired word. The only Orthodox Christian teaching we have is the Bible. We don't need refute the creed when we have God word. We just need to ignore it as being man's attempt to explain Christianity to those who didn't believe Christianity but supported arianism.

Regarding apostolic church, What do you think the protestant view is? over against the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Oriental and church of East.

I have no idea what the Protestant view with his but the biblical view is that there is nothing but the Church of Christ. Nowhere does it mention in scripture that there is an Apostolic Church.

 

[phil36]

Hi Stanj,

No one says it is inspired where do you get that from? No one has ever said that mans own writings are infallable, so your point here is mute. This is really is what is wrong with Christianity today.. Ignorance of the Faith and biblical illiteracy.

Let me point something out to you stanj, that may help you. Evry time you say soemthing about the Faith, you are making a statement of what you think it says... if it is on a topic like the Trinity you could say you are systematizing, or merely making a creed. Anyhow stanj your below statement shows sheer ignorance, you don't know what the views are yet you say its not correct??

I have no idea what the Protestant view with his but the biblical view is that there is nothing but the Church of Christ . Nowhere does it mention in scripture that there is an Apostolic Church.

You are correct the is only one 'Holy catholic (universal) church' the creed states this I wonder what they mean by apostolic church (small a), You fail to see the meaning and yet you are somewhat agreeing.. heres what Milne says:

"The apostle is a witness to the ministry and resurrection of Jesus, and hence an authorised bearer of the gospel (Luke 6:12f; Acts 1:21f; 1 Cor 15:810). The apostles stand between Jesus and all subsequent generations of Christian Faith; we reach Him only by way of the apostles and their testimony to Him incorporated in the New Testament. In this fundamental sense the whole church is 'Built on the foundation of the apostles' (Ephesians 2:20, cf Mtt 16:18; Rev 21:14).

The apostolicity of the church therefore lies in its conformity to the apostolic faith 'once entrusted to the saints' (Jude3, cf. Acts 2:42)."

(Know the Truth. Milne, B. Inter-varsity Press, Nottingham, England. 2009 Ed)

 

[StanJ]

Hi Stanj,
No one says it is inspired where do you get that from? No one has ever said that mans own writings are infallable, so your point here is mute. This is really is what is wrong with Christianity today.. Ignorance of the Faith and biblical illiteracy.

I said it isn't inspired which begs the question why are you protecting it? there are many things wrong with the face today and one of them is definitely trying to bring old written understandings into are present Church when we have more than we need in our Canon of scripture. The point is not boot it is very relative. Creeds don't define Christianity the Bible does.

Let me point something out to you stanj, that may help you. Evry time you say soemthing about the Faith, you are making a statement of what you think it says... if it is on a topic like the Trinity you could say you are systematizing, or merely making a creed. Anyhow stanj your below statement shows sheer ignorance, you don't know what the views are yet you say its not correct??

If you're saying I have ignorance of the Nicene Creed, you would be wrong. I understand exactly what it is how it came to be and why. when I say about the faith is exactly what the Bible says about it. We are sympatico when it comes to that. I always believe whatever the Bible says about the faith to be true.

You are correct the is only one 'Holy catholic (universal) church' the creed states this I wonder what they mean by apostolic church (small a), You fail to see the meaning and yet you are somewhat agreeing.. heres what Milne says:
"The apostle is a witness to the ministry and resurrection of Jesus, and hence an authorised bearer of the gospel (Luke 6:12f; Acts 1:21f; 1 Cor 15:810). The apostles stand between Jesus and all subsequent generations of Christian Faith; we reach Him only by way of the apostles and their testimony to Him incorporated in the New Testament. In this fundamental sense the whole church is 'Built on the foundation of the apostles' (Ephesians 2:20, cf Mtt 16:18; Rev 21:14).
The apostolicity of the church therefore lies in its conformity to the apostolic faith 'once entrusted to the saints' (Jude3, cf. Acts 2:42)."
(Know the Truth. Milne, B. Inter-varsity Press, Nottingham, England. 2009 Ed)

As I said it doesn't matter what they mean, the Bible doesn't talk about an Apostolic Church and the scriptures you quote above doesn't support it either. The apostles were called personally by Jesus and they all had a mission which was too express and convey the good news of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:11

 

[DustyRhodes]

Having read most of the posts, my conclusion is this. We are all on a journey to God. Each journey is unique; we start at different times from different places, we all stumble and fall and we pick ourselves up and continue, We take detours but come back on track and carry on walking. For all of us, the goal is a personal relationship with God. So while our journeys are different and sometimes our methods but the goal continues be God. One day we will all be sitting at a dinner table in God's mansion together. Let's think about that for a moment.

 

[Enow]

You have failed repeatedly to convince that you are correct. Especially in reference to the Holy Spirit as Life giver and can be worshiped (biblical evidence has been provided to you)

I hope the Lord is ministering because I know I cannot convince you if you are loving your church and their words rather than what Jesus Christ had actually said, but as it is, all errors in the Nicene creed had been addressed in post #8 of this thread.

The Biblical witness is clear and church history also agrees with the veracity and truthfulness, that the Nicene creed is correct. And yes I agree John 14:6 is correct, the only way to the Father is through the son . Jesus says 'I am the way the truth and life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

And yet you ignore how the only way the Father wants us to honor Him in worship as John 5:23 declares which is by only honoring the Son because the latter part of that verse dictates that when you are not honoring the Son, you are not honoring the Father.

You have failed to disprove what the Nicene creed says here:

You have not provided any scripture that teaches the N.T. church this practice to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-Holy-Spirit.html

And especially of scriptural proof, with which you have failed repeatably to engage. How can anyone take your other claims seriously I ask?

How can I take you seriously when the standard of judgement you have given me only applies to yourself?

You ignore all the scriptural reference reproving certain aspects of the Nicene creed in post #8.

You did not address them as to show if they were applied wrong or if it was not meaning what I have read it plainly to mean.

You have not provided ONE scripture that SUPPORTS NOR TEACHES the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. You will not find one scripture saying that is how God the Father wants us to come to Him in honoring Him by, BUT John 5:23 says only by way of the Son.

Thus John 14:6 in Jesus being the only way to come to God the Father by, also means in worship, but you seem to not acknowledge why I had applied that reference for what He meant plainly to me.

 

[Zmouth]

Your original post makes no biblical sense..

For an answer see post #9

Makes no sense to you because you don't even know what your are saying. With the indwelling you have no ability to address the topic beyond what you read of the LORD having never learned from. But as I suspected you have sopped.

And thus by your sop you are implying the the Holy Spirit was the breath of life that the LORD God breathed into the nostrils of the man he had formed from the dust. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (See Genesis 6:3)
You might seriously consider contacting a priest.