Women Pastors? Help me.

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Do you really think Paul was teaching the Judaic law over Christianity? You apparently don't understand the context of verse 34?
Paul was quoting what the Judaizers we're trying to teach to the Corinthians here and he rebukes them in verses 36-40.

NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE TRUTH. READ IT AGAIN. He was correcting a problem in the CHURCH.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (YLT)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] for God is not a God of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
[SUP]35 [/SUP] and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.


1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.


You have chosen to disobey, and then you try to blame Judaizers, which are not mentioned it EITHER CONTEXT.
 
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StanJ

Guest
NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE TRUTH. READ IT AGAIN. He was correcting a problem in the CHURCH.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (YLT)
33 for God is not a God of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
34 Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.


1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV)
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

You have chosen to disobey, and then you try to blame Judaizers, which are not mentioned it EITHER CONTEXT.
It is quite obvious you don't know how to study the Bible or the history that surrounds what Paul wrote in those early days.
I'm not going to continually repeat what has already been established quite a few times in this thread so I suggest you read over the different post and find out what the issue is. Judaizers were problematic throughout Paul's Ministry and even today with certain Messianic groups who insist the the laws of Moses be followed.

The issue in Timothy is a family one where the head of the household is the man and the woman is instructed to submit to that headship. Sadly your understanding of these scripture is sorely lacking in proper perspective.
 

jerry2465

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
160
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I can't believe this thing is still going, I ducked out long ago when i saw it was no longer productive. The message is VERY clear, and there really is no reason for debate about it. I don't know why people must try to logically twist the simple message of scripture. Its not hard at all, just read what it says, surely everyone here knows how to read. people think they can go get educated by a man at some level (seminary school, internet, what my dad says, etc) and use that to make the scripture fit their own lifestyles. You must realize that by doing that you are not really arguing with people on this board, but instead you are actually arguing with the word of God. That my friends is a losing proposition. Just read and and obey what it says!! This is not a I have the last word in the argument so i win situation.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,992
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It is quite obvious you don't know how to study the Bible or the history that surrounds what Paul wrote in those early days.
I'm not going to continually repeat what has already been established quite a few times in this thread so I suggest you read over the different post and find out what the issue is. Judaizers were problematic throughout Paul's Ministry and even today with certain Messianic groups who insist the the laws of Moses be followed.

The issue in Timothy is a family one where the head of the household is the man and the woman is instructed to submit to that headship. Sadly your understanding of these scripture is sorely lacking in proper perspective.
No, you have chosen to not be obedient.

The second half of verse 33 seems to fit best with verse 34. The phrase as in all the churches of the saints is not logically related to God's not being a God of confusion. The phrase does, however, make a logical introduction to Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak. Paul was emphasizing the fact that the principle of women's not speaking in church services was not local, geographical, or cultural, but universal, in all the churches of the saints. Though it embraces tongues, the context here refers to prophecy. Women are not to exercise any such ministries.The women who joined in the chaotic self-expression which Paul has been condemning not only added to the confusion but should not have been speaking in the first place. In God's order for the church, women should subject themselves, just as the Law also says. The principle was first taught in the Old Testament and is reaffirmed in the New.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – 1 Corinthians.
In fact it seems that the guiding thread which prompted these comments by Paul about women was the same theme developed in the preceding verses addressed to those gifted in tongues and prophecy. The church members needed to exercise self-control on occasion, a self-control expressed by silence (vv. 28, 30, 34) in order that the assembly might be characterized by peace.Apparently certain women in the Corinthian assembly needed to hear this refrain. More than uncovered heads were amiss in regard to their participation in worship services (11:2-16), and Paul was not about to dodge the problem.
Whether the admonition for silence was directed to all women (cf. 11:2-16) or only to those who were married may be debated. The word translated women ([FONT=&quot]gynaikes[/FONT]) was used to refer to women generally (as in all 11 occurrences in 11:3-15), or to unmarried women (e.g., 7:34), or to married women (e.g., 5:1; 9:5; and all 14 occurrences in chap. 7 except once in 7:34). The context alone aided the readers in distinguishing between the alternative meanings.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
14:34 As is well-known, the verse divisions and even the punctuation of the NT were added centuries after the original manuscripts were written. The last clause of verse 33 makes much greater sense modifying the church practice in verse 34 than a universal truth about the omnipresent God (some Greek Testaments and English translations use this punctuation). For instance, the ASV reads: "As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law." The instructions which Paul is giving to the Corinthian saints do not apply to them alone. These are the same instructions that have been addressed to all the churches of the saints. The uniform testimony of the NT is that while women have many valuable ministries, it is not given to them to have a public ministry to the whole church. They are entrusted with the unspeakably important work of the home and of raising children. But they are not allowed to speak publicly in the assembly. Theirs is to be a place of submission to the man.We believe that the expression as the law also says has reference to the woman's being submissive to the man. This is clearly taught in the law, which here probably means the Pentateuch primarily. Genesis 3:16, for instance, says "your desire shall be for your husband. And he shall rule over you."
It is often contended that what Paul is forbidding in this verse is for the women to chatter or gossip while the service is going on. However, such an interpretation is untenable. The word here translated speak ([FONT=&quot]laleo[/FONT]) did not mean to chatter in [FONT=&quot]Koine[/FONT] Greek. The same word is used of God in verse 21 of this chapter, and in Hebrews 1:1. It means to speak authoritatively.
14:35 Indeed, women are not permitted to ask questions publicly in the church. If they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home. Some women might try to evade the previous prohibition against speaking by asking questions. It is possible to teach by the simple act of questioning others. So this verse closes any such loophole or objection.
If it is asked how this applies to an unmarried woman or a widow, the answer is that the Scriptures do not try to take up each individual case, but merely set forth general principles. If a woman does not have a husband, she could ask her father, her brother, or one of the elders of the church. Actually, this may be translated, "Let them ask their men-folks at home." The basic rule to be remembered is that it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
14:33. This is the reason why the spirits of prophets must be assumed to be subject to the prophets. They are from God; but God is not a God of disorder or of commotion, but of peace. Therefore every spirit which is from him must be capable of control.
14:34. Women should keep silent in the churches The speaking intended is public speaking, and especially in the church. In the Old Testament it had been predicted that your sons and daughters will prophesy (see Joel 2:28) – a prediction which Peter quotes as verified on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17); and Acts 21:9 mentions four daughters of Philip who prophesied. The apostle himself seems to take it for granted, in 11:5, that women could receive and exercise the gift of prophecy. It is therefore only the public exercise of the gift that is prohibited.

A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Now what is he talking about here? Tongues. He is not saying that a woman is not to speak in church; he is saying that she is not to speak in tongues in the church. My friend, if you take the women out of the tongues movement, it would die overnight. You may say, "That's not a nice thing to say." I know it's not nice, but it is true.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,992
4,606
113
I can't believe this thing is still going, I ducked out long ago when i saw it was no longer productive. The message is VERY clear, and there really is no reason for debate about it. I don't know why people must try to logically twist the simple message of scripture. Its not hard at all, just read what it says, surely everyone here knows how to read. people think they can go get educated by a man at some level (seminary school, internet, what my dad says, etc) and use that to make the scripture fit their own lifestyles. You must realize that by doing that you are not really arguing with people on this board, but instead you are actually arguing with the word of God. That my friends is a losing proposition. Just read and and obey what it says!! This is not a I have the last word in the argument so i win situation.
Personally, I think the THIRD to the last sentence in J. Vernon McGee's Commentary that I posted above, will tell you WHY IT IS STILL GOING.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,752
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It is quite obvious you don't know how to study the Bible or the history that surrounds what Paul wrote in those early days.
I'm not going to continually repeat what has already been established quite a few times in this thread so I suggest you read over the different post and find out what the issue is. Judaizers were problematic throughout Paul's Ministry and even today with certain Messianic groups who insist the the laws of Moses be followed.

The issue in Timothy is a family one where the head of the household is the man and the woman is instructed to submit to that headship. Sadly your understanding of these scripture is sorely lacking in proper perspective.
It seems you follow more man "wisedom" then Bible word. Your words was not to set on 1 ore 2 verses, but to the overall view. You can read the whole NT, nowhere it is supportet that a woman can/should be a pastor. You are based only on Romans 16,7, which is even not clear! And there is no consense among the scholars. And If you mention hermeneutic. Which hermeneutic you mean? evangelical/protestant/fundmentalistic/feministic? which Hermeneutic you use is the question about the color of your glas.
 
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StanJ

Guest
No, you have chosen to not be obedient.
I have chosen to follow with Paul teaches in 2 Timothy 2:15 which apparently you haven't or can't.
Quoting false teachers like MacArthur and McGee doesn't help you at all it just shows who your influenced by.
How about you learn to think and study God's word with the help of the Holy Spirit.
 
S

StanJ

Guest
It seems you follow more man "wisedom" then Bible word. Your words was not to set on 1 ore 2 verses, but to the overall view. You can read the whole NT, nowhere it is supportet that a woman can/should be a pastor. You are based only on Romans 16,7, which is even not clear! And there is no consense among the scholars. And If you mention hermeneutic. Which hermeneutic you mean? evangelical/protestant/fundmentalistic/feministic? which Hermeneutic you use is the question about the color of your glas.
You keep saying that but you can't show anywhere where the New Testament teaches against a woman being a pastor.
Romans 16:7 is as clear as you want it to be. As English is not your primary language and German is then maybe you should study the issue in German and see how that resolves for you. There is only one type of biblical hermeneutics and the fact that you list four areas that don't even apply to hermeneutics shows you have absolutely no idea what hermeneutics is.
I really see no useful purpose in arguing with someone who has a very limited grasp of the English language and obviously of the English translation of the Bible. Read the German version I linked to and read a German/Greek Interlinear and maybe you'll learn something.
 
Feb 12, 2017
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Why does the discussions like this never include Genesis 3? See what God said in His curse to mankind after the fall (sin). If you choose not to follow the Bible, then one must consider why? Do I really fear God? Do I really believe the Bible is God's Word. Do I follow it or agree with it? If not, why not?
 
Feb 12, 2017
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Also, why do people be so mean or ugly to each other? If we are true believers and followers of God, then we would love one another and wish the best for each other as we would wish for ourselves. Yes, some know more than others when it comes to the Bible. But if we do, we must patiently teach others gently, as Christ through the Holy Spirit taught us. I never get angry when others disagree with me, or get ugly with me. I simply pray for them that God will open their Spiritual eyes. And if I am wrong, I am grateful to be corrected!
 
Feb 12, 2017
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This is my first time on Christian Chat. Either I don't know how it works, or I keep finding empty rooms. It appears there is no one out there. Goodnight!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I have chosen to follow with Paul teaches in 2 Timothy 2:15 which apparently you haven't or can't.
Quoting false teachers like MacArthur and McGee doesn't help you at all it just shows who your influenced by.
How about you learn to think and study God's word with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Let me guess, Charismatic or Pentecostal, right?

I am conservative Evangelical. I was born again the last week of 1977, and I have have been studying and learning with the Help of the Holy Spirit ever since.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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I like how this guy only posted four things and his thread is still running riot
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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This is my first time on Christian Chat. Either I don't know how it works, or I keep finding empty rooms. It appears there is no one out there. Goodnight!
Hello Harmless and welcome to Christian Chat! :)
 

jerry2465

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
160
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Why does the discussions like this never include Genesis 3? See what God said in His curse to mankind after the fall (sin). If you choose not to follow the Bible, then one must consider why? Do I really fear God? Do I really believe the Bible is God's Word. Do I follow it or agree with it? If not, why not?
I did reference Genesis 3 back 40 some pages ago, but was attacked for even bringing it up lol. Welcome to CC harmless
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,992
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This is my first time on Christian Chat. Either I don't know how it works, or I keep finding empty rooms. It appears there is no one out there. Goodnight!
Wow, and I am usually up late, so you must have been up later. Your misunderstanding is this is not like a Chatline, where everyone is on the thread live at the same time and you get responses in a few minutes. They do have on this site a VIDEO CHAT forum for that kind of chat. The Bible Discussion Group is where most of us only check for new posts once or twice a day, and then reply to pertinent posts. Welcome by the way.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,992
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Also, why do people be so mean or ugly to each other? If we are true believers and followers of God, then we would love one another and wish the best for each other as we would wish for ourselves. Yes, some know more than others when it comes to the Bible. But if we do, we must patiently teach others gently, as Christ through the Holy Spirit taught us. I never get angry when others disagree with me, or get ugly with me. I simply pray for them that God will open their Spiritual eyes. And if I am wrong, I am grateful to be corrected!
You make some good points in that post, but what you do not understand yet, is even here we occasionally get a Wolf in sheep's clothing, who will try to tear people away from the flock and sound doctrines we have been taught. Jesus said "You will recognize them by their Fruit."


Acts 20:29-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.

Jude 1:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Dear friends, although I was eager to write you about the salvation we share, I found it necessary to write and exhort you to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord.
2 Timothy 3:7-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men who are corrupt in mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But they will not make further progress, for their lack of understanding will be clear to all, as theirs was also.

Galatians 1:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Yes we are the LOVE THE BRETHREN, and to be patient with them, as we strive to teach them.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,070
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Why does the discussions like this never include Genesis 3? See what God said in His curse to mankind after the fall (sin). If you choose not to follow the Bible, then one must consider why? Do I really fear God? Do I really believe the Bible is God's Word. Do I follow it or agree with it? If not, why not?
Welcome, Harmless! :)

Genesis 3 has been referenced many times, though not always with a quote. Some reference it to claim that men ruling over women is God's punishment. I reference it to claim that "but he shall rule over you" is a statement of consequence, not punishment... what "will" happen, rather than what "God wills" to happen.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You make some good points in that post, but what you do not understand yet, is even here we occasionally get a Wolf in sheep's clothing, who will try to tear people away from the flock and sound doctrines we have been taught. Jesus said "You will recognize them by their Fruit."
So... everyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation is a wolf in sheep's clothing? If that is the case, it's not worth trying to discuss anything with you. You can keep your condemnation to yourself.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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So... everyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation is a wolf in sheep's clothing? If that is the case, it's not worth trying to discuss anything with you. You can keep your condemnation to yourself.
There are very few things that actually make one a wolf in sheep's clothing, and Denying the DEITY of Jesus Christ is right at the top of the list. That is teaching another Jesus, different than the JESUS CHRIST that all of mainline Christianity teaches and Believes in.


Other heresies that would make one a psuedo Christian (wolf) would be "a different gospel", " a different plan of Salvation", "considering the blood He shed on the Cross an unholy thing", and "denying that all of the Bible in the original manuscripts was Inspired by GOD and therefore inerrant".


2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a complete and pure devotion to Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!