Popeless Catholics

[FranC]

based on my time with the Episcopalians

meetings are organized around the liturgy. They use a book of common prayer, which includes the ancient creeds, and goes step-by-step through the service.

there is great latitude in how each person understands the words.

so, if you can agree with the words (nearly all Christians would), it's a great way to gather with other Christians and (theoretically) avoid doctrinal conflicts.

Dan,

IF everyone can understand the words (to the bible or to a catechism, or whatever) their own way
and not have to agree with anything, HOW do they know they're believing the truth?

Shouldn't a given church have only one way of believing?
Or is it like the RCC. They don't do teaching, so most don't even know their own religion.

??

Fran

 

[FranC]

as I understand it, both Eastern Orthodox and RCC say that the bible is supposed to be read by the church as a whole.

JOHN 16:13 When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide

you (each individual? or as a group? I don't know)

into the full truth.

Hi Dan,

The RCC says that the truth is in the bible but the church is the pillar of truth - it holds the truth to be imparted to the people.

In the U.S. it was not encouraged that the bible be read until about the 80's. I remember that when I was saved I could not find a bible study - one of the reasons I left the RCC.

Now they do tell their parishoners to read the bible and they do have bible study but few attend. There is very little interest in a church by church basis.

In Europe it was a SIN to read the bible until recently. It was discouraged vehemently.
Seminarians could not read the Old Testament without prior authority by a superior. This was true even in the 1960's, as told to me by a priest friend of mine.

Today Catholics are encouraged to read the bible and attend bible study, but, as you can imagine, the majority wonder why it would even be necessary since they attend Mass and there are three readings each week. OT, Letter, Gospel.

The O.T. and Letter is read by the laity. The Gospel is read by either a priest or a deacon. There are 3 different "sets", A,B and C (year A, etc.) If you go to Mass every day for three years you do hear the entire bible, although not in order.

At the reading of the gospel, the congregation stands and makes a cross on their forehead, lips, and heart. I used to teach kids this meant: Hear God, Speak God, Love God. Or, God in the mind, God in our words, God in our heart.

For the consecration of the "bread", which are round wafers or hosts, the congragation should be kneeling, but many just stand and bow their head.

This is the time when transubstantiation takes place. The equivalent of the Real Presence in the Lutheran church. I don't know about others. When Luther died, he still believed in the Real Presence.

The Apostle's Creed and the Lord's Prayer are recited as a group at different times of the Mass.
Also, at the beginning of the Mass a comunal confession is celebrated and all veniel sins are forgiven. (The Penetential Rite).
Mortal sins can only be forgiven (absolved) by a priest.

I'm not Catholic and do not agree with much of their dogma and doctrine, but I'll defend them when necessary.

Fran

 

[FranC]

the services tend to be in the traditional side, though I think that's up to each church.

the Lord's supper is done at nearly every service, it's done much like a Catholic mass.

yes, they pass the offering plate.

yes, a sermon, but it's usually on they short side. It's supposed to be based on the bible readings for that day, which are usually the same as what the rcc reads that day... so it's kind of cool to think 'millions of Christians all over the world are reading these scriptures, too.

they don't do alter calls the away most people think of them... but everyone is 'called to the alter' to partake of communion. They have an open communion, any baptized believer is welcome (compare to rcc or Orthodox, which is not open).

some episcopal churches put their services up on YouTube, so you could check those out. (let me know if you have any trouble finding them)

Thanks for reminding me of a couple of things...

The oferring plate is passesd around but voluntary donations are not really spoken about unless there's some kind of special need. This is one thing I like a lot about the RCC - I don't go to church to hear a 10 minute sermon about how I should be tithing.

If a person believes in the Real Presence, he can receive communion, otherwise, no.

A lot is the same!

Fran

 

[FranC]

If Jesus needed Mary to be sinless so that He could be sinless, then Mary's ancestral mothers all the way back to Eve would have likewise needed to be sinless in order to bring forth a sinless Mary. Making the sinlessness of Jesus dependent upon Mary is idolatry plain and simple. Yes, the Roman Catholic pontiffs have gone way too far twisting Scripture to make Mary out to be that which she is not nor was not. The sad thing is that they continue to do so. Are you defending the heresies of the RCC?

Hi Magenta,
I'm not defending incorrect doctrine.
I'm explaining how they understand it.

Quick re the bloodline: It wasn't known that the blood of the mother does not mix with the blood of the fetus/baby.
SO... Supposedly GOD intervened AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTIONS, and made Mary sinless. In fact, there are theological debates in the RCC as to exactly WHEN did Mary become sinless. I don't know if this could be found online. It's a very serious debate and includes physics!!

This is why it's better to stick to the bible - one doesn't have to then come up with further excuses.

I will say this... There are plenty of misunderstandings on both sides of the isle.
I do find Protestants to be more "pure" in their beliefs.

So, even though I'm not Catholic, I will speak up when something incorrect is said about them -
or even explain the thinking.

I feel that the more we know about every church, the better off we are.
I'd love to concentrate on what makes us all be the same,
but then there wouldn't be a forum!!

Fran

 

[FranC]

Again I would suggest reading the book by David Hunt,,"The Woman Rides the Beast". It will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the RCC and even more than you could guess especially on the so-called doctrine of the RCC.

There is little doubt in my mind that in the New One World Government, The RCC will be the "Woman who rides the Beast" and will take with her to HELL, hundreds of millions of people who (now) believe in her and billions of others that will come to believe in her.

I'm not into reading books other people write ABOUT churches.
I'd rather learn about the church on my own and make up my own mind about it.

It's kind of like reading ABOUT the bible
Instead of reading the bible, I'd reather read the bible...

Pope Francis is making a concerted effort (woth other churches) to try and come closer together in doctrineal beliefs.
The Catholic Church is changing a lot. I believe this is why Benedict retired; he did not agree with these changes.

IF the Pope were to become the head of the big one.world church, no one will mind because the Catholic Church will have changed drastically by then. It's not happening in our lifetime.

It took about 40 years for Vatican Council II to really start taking effect. Catholics don't accept change easily.

I'd relax if I were you. I have a feeling the Lord is coming back soon and I also believe the Anti-Christ will be taking over the church. Pope Francis is not the Anti-Christ. He is FOR Christ.

Fran

 

[FranC]

So "edify one another" isn't anything to worry about?

Sometimes we're NOT edifying each other.
That image you posted is pretty horrible.

Fran

 

[FranC]

That we're all brainwashed? Why would you hang out in a place of brainwashed people? (And don't tell me to preach the gospel, since I've never seen you do that.)

When DustyRhodes said I got the picture, he didn't mean that we're all brainwashed.
He meant that GOD IS EVERYWHERE.
It doesn't matter what church you go to, what matter is your relationship with God.

In fact, he said the opposite of what you're proposing.
He said he doesn't even listen to some statements they make!

When you read something, go with an open mind, and not pre-conceived ideas.

Fran

 

[FranC]

I was chosen to be the witness for both my brother and father's divorces, to turn them into annulments, so they could be members of the RCC. (My brother because he was marrying a Catholic woman, so had to join that church after leaving for decades, and my dad so he could get communion.) The requirements for receiving communion again in the RCC is $3000 for an annulment with whatever excuse can be used. (According to the priest, my brother was never married before, because his first marriage was in a Lutheran Church. Don't worry though, the priest was happy to tell me my niece and nephew weren't bastards. I bit my tongue so I wouldn't tell him what I was thinking about that asinine remark. And for Dad and his second wife? Incapable. I'd love to see that one covered in the Bible, but honestly the only thing you need to get communion again after divorcing is $3000 and a family member willing to talk to the priest without saying what she's really thinking.)

1. I can't reply because I have no details.

2. Sometimes there WASN'T a marriage to begin with... This is one of the reason for annulment. There are other reasons a church divorce may be granted, but not many because marriage is a covenant between God and man.

3. Pope Francis is trying to remove the charge for an annulment.

There's a charge because church attorneys are involved - it's a rather long process.

I'll add that sometimes priests can make a mistake. For instance, many years ago a friend of mine was not allowed to baptize a baby because she had left her husband but WAS NOT IN A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP. She had the right to baptize the baby, the priest made a mistake. This happens because there are too many man-made rules in the RCC church.

There is no perfect church, BTW.

Fran

 

[FranC]

It is love. I am not going to let the entire world suffer under the teachings of a non Christian man and think they are saved because the church saves them.

Depleted, it's rather difficult to hear anyone call the Pope a non-Christian man just because you don't agree with CAtholic
dogma or doctrine or rules.

We do not like Catholicism
But we must love Catholics

This is their church, this is what they believe. Maybe what WE believe is wrong!!

People who THINK they are saved, most probably are.
One is NOT SAVED because he has the correct doctrine figured out.

One is saved because he loves Jesus and is following what he was taught.

The TEACHER will answer to God,
NOT the student.

Fran

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta,
I'm not defending incorrect doctrine.
I'm explaining how they understand it.

Quick re the bloodline: It wasn't known that the blood of the mother does not mix with the blood of the fetus/baby.
SO... Supposedly GOD intervened AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTIONS, and made Mary sinless. In fact, there are theological debates in the RCC as to exactly WHEN did Mary become sinless. I don't know if this could be found online. It's a very serious debate and includes physics!!

This is why it's better to stick to the bible - one doesn't have to then come up with further excuses.

I will say this... There are plenty of misunderstandings on both sides of the isle.
I do find Protestants to be more "pure" in their beliefs.

So, even though I'm not Catholic, I will speak up when something incorrect is said about them -
or even explain the thinking.

I feel that the more we know about every church, the better off we are.
I'd love to concentrate on what makes us all be the same,
but then there wouldn't be a forum!!

Fran

If Jesus needed Mary to be sinless so that He could be born sinless you still have the same problem, of all mothers going all the way back needing to be sinless to produce a sinless Mary, otherwise it is all poppycock, which we know it is anyways, since saying Mary was sinless directly contradicts many other Scriptures. RCC elevates Mary way above and beyond anything Scriptures or Jesus ever did!

I said nothing wrong, and the RCC are certainly wrong.

The immaculate conception and the bodily assumption of Mary are both beliefs mandated by papal decree and yet there is no basis for either in Scripture. Perpetual virginity also goes against what Scripture says. Roman Catholics pray to Mary to intercede on their behalf while Jesus told us to pray to the Father, and Scripture attests that there is one mediator between God and man.

 

[PennEd]

If Jesus needed Mary to be sinless so that He could be born sinless you still have the same problem, of all mothers going all the way back needing to be sinless to produce a sinless Mary, otherwise it is all poppycock, which we know it is anyways, since saying Mary was sinless directly contradicts many other Scriptures. RCC elevates Mary way above and beyond anything Scriptures or Jesus ever did!

I said nothing wrong, and the RCC are certainly wrong.

The immaculate conception and the bodily assumption of Mary are both beliefs mandated by papal decree and yet there is no basis for either in Scripture. Perpetual virginity also goes against what Scripture says. Roman Catholics pray to Mary to intercede on their behalf while Jesus told us to pray to the Father, and Scripture attests that there is one mediator between God and man.

Agree with everything here but I think the immaculate conception of Jesus is Biblical if I understand the use of the term immaculate here.

But you are right. There was no prohibition against Mary remaining a virgin, and in fact we know she didn't as she had children after Jesus.

Mary, like some other Biblical figures was blameless NOT sinless. This is basic stuff that shouldn't really require much debate.

 

[Magenta]

Agree with everything here but I think the immaculate conception of Jesus is Biblical if I understand the use of the term immaculate here.

But you are right. There was no prohibition against Mary remaining a virgin, and in fact we know she didn't as she had children after Jesus.

Mary, like some other Biblical figures was blameless NOT sinless. This is basic stuff that shouldn't really require much debate.

Good morning Ed The immaculate conception has to do with Mary's sinlessness from conception. They believe God in the flesh could not have been born sinless unless Mary was also sinless. Sounds rather blasphemous to me. The RCC idolatry of Mary is nothing short of disturbing.

 

[MadebyHim]

When DustyRhodes said I got the picture, he didn't mean that we're all brainwashed.
He meant that GOD IS EVERYWHERE.
It doesn't matter what church you go to, what matter is your relationship with God.

In fact, he said the opposite of what you're proposing.
He said he doesn't even listen to some statements they make!

When you read something, go with an open mind, and not pre-conceived ideas.

Fran

Being brain washed is not a bad thing unless they use moody water instead of the life giving water Jesus has for us.

 

[MadebyHim]

was baptized Lutheran as a baby(sprinkled). Been to many Churches of different beliefs. The last time i was in a Lutheran church, it felt like i was at a funeral home(dead space). Its kind of like the rcc without all the statues. But to say they are popeless catholics, did ring a bell.

 

[PennEd]

Good morning Ed The immaculate conception has to do with Mary's sinlessness from conception. They believe God in the flesh could not have been born sinless unless Mary was also sinless. Sounds rather blasphemous to me. The RCC idolatry of Mary is nothing short of disturbing.

Good morning Magenta. Well if that is what is meant by immaculate conception then I'm with you. I thought it meant that Mary didn't have intercourse to conceive Jesus. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Magenta]

Good morning Magenta. Well if that is what is meant by immaculate conception then I'm with you. I thought it meant that Mary didn't have intercourse to conceive Jesus. Thanks for the clarification.

You are welcome It seems a common misconception (no pun intended!) to think the immaculate conception has to do with how Jesus was conceived via the Holy Spirit of God, instead of how Mary was conceived. There are two ex cathedra dogmas and both concern Mary. Ex Cathedra means they are mandated as beliefs, and binding on the RCC adherents.

 

[Adstar]

No one who defends the catholic church is a protestant...
Just like no one who defends islam is a Christian...

 

[Ariel82]

No one who defends the catholic church is a protestant...
Just like no one who defends islam is a Christian...

Or they are Christians who don't fully understand your objections to Catholics or Muslims. They may just be looking at the people and not the false doctrines that most of the people don't understand anyway.

Most people only have a surface understanding of the religion they claim to believe in.

 

[Adstar]

Or they are Christians who don't fully understand your objections to Catholics or Muslims. They may just be looking at the people and not the false doctrines that most of the people don't understand anyway.

Most people only have a surface understanding of the religion they claim to believe in.

If a person knows what Christianity is then they will know that catholicism and islam is not Christianity.. If they do not fully understand what Christianity is then they cannot say they are Christians can they.... One must know what Christianity is before they can claim to be a Christian in truth. Christianity is not about being earnest or enthusiastic or a doer of works or a really nice person. It is about believing the Word of God and trusting in the Atonement secured by the work of Jesus for ones salvation from the eternal lake of fire..

If people only have a surface understanding of their religion then they are not in their religion they are in some nowhere zone where they think anything and everything goes.. They will stand for nothing because they have nothing solid to stand upon..

 

[Dan_473]

Dan,

IF everyone can understand the words (to the bible or to a catechism, or whatever) their own way
and not have to agree with anything, HOW do they know they're believing the truth?

Shouldn't a given church have only one way of believing?
Or is it like the RCC. They don't do teaching, so most don't even know their own religion.

??

Fran

I think they'd say that endless disputes over what each person sees as true don't benefit the Body. So, better to agree on a set of words to say when they meet.

interestingly, Stone-Campbell movement churches say the bible is the only rule, each person should read it's for themselves and decide... 'no creed but the Bible'