Women Pastors? Help me.

[StanJ]

I have no bias against women at all, but I also know how to read. Have a nice day, I'm out.

So do you also believe what 1 Tim 2:15 says in plain English?

 

[wolfwint]

First of all I wasn't addressing you in this post and second of all I did use scripture and have used scripture repeatedly.
What about 1 Tim 2:15? Do you believe what it's telling you in plain English?

Yes, it was not for me, but you wrote to Jerry in the same manner as you did before to me.
Which Scripture you showed that woman also should be pastors? Ore that they are allowed to have authority about man? 1.Tim 2,15 has nothing to do with the theme. I believe it is gods word. You too?

 

[StanJ]

Yes, it was not for me, but you wrote to Jerry in the same manner as you did before to me.
Which Scripture you showed that woman also should be pastors? Ore that they are allowed to have authority about man? 1.Tim 2,15 has nothing to do with the theme. I believe it is gods word. You too?

I never said there is a scripture that shows that women should be pastors I said there is no scripture that shows women cannot be pastors you really need to pay attention to what I write. now instead of deflecting answerthe question do you believe that
1 Timothy 2:15 is correct and that women can be saved by having children? If not please explain 1 Timothy 2:15.

 

[jerry2465]

So do you also believe what 1 Tim 2:15 says in plain English?

1 Timothy 2:15 is a very hard verse to get a grip on, there are many interpretations of it, but that don't take away in the least what is said earlier (verses 11-12). Peter states that in Paul's letters "There are some things in them that are hard to understand" and this is one of those things, however he makes it very clear in verses 11-12 and in 1st Corinthians 14:34-35 and in 1st Corinthians 11:3. It might be debatable if there was only one single passage that says a woman should not be the speaker in the assembly, but there 3 very clear pieces of scripture that support this. I don't know for sure the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:15, but my best guess is that just as our faith is as gold "tested by fire" by our various trials. I believe that this is very similar in that though a woman suffers so greatly during childbirth as gold "tested by fire" may result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


[h=1]1 Peter 1:6-7English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]6 [/SUP]In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



[h=1]1 Corinthians 14:34-35English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35[/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.


Paul says that "the women should keep silent in the churches" very clear!! no reason to debate about it

1 Corinthians 11:3English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife[SUP][a][/SUP] is her husband,[SUP][b][/SUP] and the head of Christ is God.


Men have the position of being the leader

[h=1]1 Timothy 2:11-12English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.


very clear, a woman is not permitted to teach but is to remain quiet. It's very clear

2 Peter 3:15-16English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, [SUP]16 [/SUP]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Some things that Paul says that are hard to understand according to another apostle of Christ, Peter

Ok, I'm sure you will tell me why I'm wrong, but I won't agree, but this is my last post in this thread.

 

[VCO]

Yes Pentecostal, and I have been saved since 1971 and have been studying the Bible for as long as I can remember. The fact is I did receive the infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit not to long after I was saved. Have you?

If you are asking if I believe in the Charismatic Experience? The answer is Absolutely not! I believe it is a counterfeit that has deceived MANY. If it is not exactly like what the Apostles did, it is a counterfeit.

 

[StanJ]

1 Timothy 2:15 is a very hard verse to get a grip on, there are many interpretations of it, but that don't take away in the least what is said earlier (verses 11-12). Peter states that in Paul's letters "There are some things in them that are hard to understand" and this is one of those things, however he makes it very clear in verses 11-12 and in 1st Corinthians 14:34-35 and in 1st Corinthians 11:3. It might be debatable if there was only one single passage that says a woman should not be the speaker in the assembly, but there 3 very clear pieces of scripture that support this. I don't know for sure the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:15, but my best guess is that just as our faith is as gold "tested by fire" by our various trials. I believe that this is very similar in that though a woman suffers so greatly during childbirth as gold "tested by fire" may result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That's funny because it looks like pretty plain English to me, just as plain as the English you're advocating about in verses 11 to 12. So because you have no predispositional bias about verse 15, you say it's hard yet the English is just as plain as the previous verse so what's so hard about it? The verses you quote have all been dealt with and either you didn't read the posts where they were dealt with or you refuse to acknowledge how they were dealt with. I will presume the latter.
Now why is it verse 15 should not be taken as literally as you want verses 11 and 12 to be taken? It seems you have a dichotomy that you just can't quite resolve, and it is probably elevating your level of cognitive dissonance. In case you don't know what that means, it's that little bit of panicky feeling you're experiencing when you really have no idea about a verse of scripture that you've suddenly been confronted with that you have no bias about and have to actually use your God-given ability to reason it out and make sense of it. That won't happen unless you actually study and delve into the context of why Paul said what he said and that doesn't happen by just reading the plain words. BTW, faith doesn't mean to stubbornly believe something you do contrary to all internal and external evidences. Faith is NOT blind. You may want to think about taking Mark 4:9 and Proverbs 20:12 to heart.

 

[StanJ]

If you are asking if I believe in the Charismatic Experience? The answer is Absolutely not! I believe it is a counterfeit that has deceived MANY. If it is not exactly like what the Apostles did, it is a counterfeit.

So then you don't believe in the plain words of Jesus Christ and the plain words in the book of Acts yet you believe the so-called plain Words that support your bias? Is that pretty much it? FYI, Charismatic is only as it relates to RC believers. But regardless,
I have to now ask why you don't believe in all the examples set forth in the book of Acts when they are in very plain words?

 

[Trailblazer]

Be Thankful and Bless the Lord for all things. But more so when The Lord works in your life or anyone else.
A couple of Female Pastors made the most Godly impact on my life more then any other time in my life back
in 1993. God was at work. Prompting me to check out a little trailer Church at a big truck stop in OK City.

Three hrs of talking, Prayer, Sharing of their Spiritual gifts etc, I left there seeking the Lord with all my heart,mind, and soul every day for months. The Lord made himself very well known to me on many occasions back then. I would hike to the top of Mountains just to sit and talk with the Lord. Those days and experiences are still most of my rock/foundation that I stand on today. Got me through a nasty spiritual battle also 18 years later. I use some of them times for sharing of the gospel still today.

What a fool I would have been to have ignored the teachings of them female pastors. Their powerful testimonies of their
Spiritual gifts, their prayers for me, laying of hands, etc. Then Maybe/Probably being close minded. Not ever hearing
Jesus speak with me many times. Not seeking him or asking for the Holy Spirit and Spiritual gifts.
All because scripture saying Women not to have power over men? Or Women not to be Pastors?

I had never read the Bible till a few days after meeting with them Two female Pastors. I do know for a fact that
God came into my life powerfully after talking with them. To this day I still ask the Lord to watch after them
and bless them. For they made the most wonderful impact in my entire life to this day

 

[wolfwint]

OK, than again. I wrote to weeks ago and i supposed you read it.

"Why you then not read what the word of god says? F.e. 1.Tim 2,11-14 ore Genesis 3,16? There it is clear said why a woman should not rule over man. And the role of a Pastor ore eldest is to lead and to have authority" Post 864

"Yes, that's right. But he told her not to teach them. As Dagallen said: man and woman are equal in front of God. Equal in their worth, not in their tasks. And the answer for the why we find in genesis 2,18-22;and 3,16. Why the woman should not be Pastor is reasoned in the sinfall, notbecause she is not able to do it. Ore she is less worth.
Of course today many Christians are not agree with it. But then they have to ignore the word of God!" post 866

So these are scriptures which shows that woman cant be pastors.
Where are the scriptures which shows that woman can be /should be Pastors? If there is no scripture for, but against it, how you can claim then that woman can be Pastor?
(Yes I know Genesis 2, 18-22 and Genesis 3, 16 speaking from married couple. So it would be better to mention Genesis 3,6, because 1. Tim 2, 12-14 is doing it.)

 

[wolfwint]

OK, than again. I wrote to weeks ago and i supposed you read it.

"Why you then not read what the word of god says? F.e. 1.Tim 2,11-14 ore Genesis 3,16? There it is clear said why a woman should not rule over man. And the role of a Pastor ore eldest is to lead and to have authority" Post 864

"Yes, that's right. But he told her not to teach them. As Dagallen said: man and woman are equal in front of God. Equal in their worth, not in their tasks. And the answer for the why we find in genesis 2,18-22;and 3,16. Why the woman should not be Pastor is reasoned in the sinfall, notbecause she is not able to do it. Ore she is less worth.
Of course today many Christians are not agree with it. But then they have to ignore the word of God!" post 866

So these are scriptures which shows that woman cant be pastors.
Where are the scriptures which shows that woman can be /should be Pastors? If there is no scripture for, but against it, how you can claim then that woman can be Pastor?
(Yes I know Genesis 2, 18-22 and Genesis 3, 16 speaking from married couple. So it would be better to mention Genesis 3,6, because 1. Tim 2, 12-14 is doing it.)

This Post is for you Stan!

 

[VCO]

I never said there is a scripture that shows that women should be pastors I said there is no scripture that shows women cannot be pastors you really need to pay attention to what I write. now instead of deflecting answerthe question do you believe that
1 Timothy 2:15 is correct and that women can be saved by having children? If not please explain 1 Timothy 2:15.

Did not GOD inspire ALL OF THIS:


1 Timothy 2:11-12 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.


Titus 2:3-5 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop {PASTOR}, he desires a good work.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
[SUP]5 [/SUP] (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
[SUP]6 [/SUP] not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


1 Timothy 3:8-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Likewise deacons {or Elders} must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Dino246]

Did not GOD inspire ALL OF THIS:

1 Timothy 2:11-12 (ESV) ...
Titus 2:3-5 (ESV) ...
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop {PASTOR}, he desires a good work.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
[SUP]5 [/SUP] (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
[SUP]6 [/SUP] not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


1 Timothy 3:8-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Likewise deacons {or Elders} must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

In response to your question, "Did not GOD inspire ALL OF THIS", the answer is No, He didn't.

Firstly, He inspired the Greek, not the English.

Second, His inspired word does not confuse "deacon" (diakonos) with either "elder" (episkopoi or presbuteros) or "pastor" (poimen). Where the terms appear together in the Greek, then "or" would be appropriate. I'm not aware offhand of such a case in Scripture.

Thirdly, the Greek of the 1 Timothy passage does not contain the words translated "he" or "his". Please read posts #97 (page 5) and 123 (page 7) for further information on this.

 

[AllenW]

There's nothing wrong with women pastors.
Stop hogging all the 10 % money for yourselves.
Share it with women.
Equal rights for women!

 

[VCO]

In response to your question, "Did not GOD inspire ALL OF THIS", the answer is No, He didn't.

Firstly, He inspired the Greek, not the English.

Second, His inspired word does not confuse "deacon" (diakonos) with either "elder" (episkopoi or presbuteros) or "pastor" (poimen). Where the terms appear together in the Greek, then "or" would be appropriate. I'm not aware offhand of such a case in Scripture.

Thirdly, the Greek of the 1 Timothy passage does not contain the words translated "he" or "his". Please read posts #97 (page 5) and 123 (page 7) for further information on this.

My mistake, Bishop or Overseer is the word that can be translateded ELDER, not Deacon.

We conservative Evangelicals are those who believe Everything from Gen. 1:1 thru Rev. 22:21 was inspired by GOD Himself, and therefore in the original manuscripts it is inerrant; and truly the WORD of GOD.



1 Timothy 3:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] An overseer <G1985>, then, must be above reproach, the husband <G435> of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1 Timothy 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Deacons <G1249> must be husbands <G435> of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.


The pronoun HE is implied in the Greek by the Masculine <G435> husband.

Therefore the TRANSLATION to English is PROPER and CORRECT, and the HE pronouns belong there.

Greek NASB Number: 435

Greek Word: ἀνήρ

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]anêr[/FONT]
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: a man:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used
brethren* (13),
gentlemen (1),
husband (39),
husbands (13),
man (71),
man's (2),
men (70),


New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

3:2 must. The use of this Greek particle stresses emphatically that living a blameless life is absolutely necessary for church leaders. blameless. Lit. “not able to be held” in a criminal sense; there is no valid accusation of wrongdoing that can be made against him. No overt, flagrant sin can mar the life of a person who must be an example for his people to follow (cf. v. 10; 4:16; 5:7; Ps. 101:6; Phil. 3:17; 2 Thess. 3:9; Heb. 13:7; 1 Pet. 5:3). This is the overarching requirement for elders; the rest of the qualifications elaborate on what it means to be blameless. Titus 1:6, 7 uses another Greek word to mean the same thing. the husband of one wife. Lit. in Greek a “one-woman man.” This says nothing about marriage or divorce (for comments on that, see note on verse 4). The issue is not the elder’s marital status, but his moral and sexual purity.
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

3:2. More is required of an overseer than mere willingness to serve. In verses 2-7 Paul listed 15 requirements for a church leader: (1) above reproach. He must be blameless in his behavior. This Greek word anepilēmpton, "above reproach," is used in the New Testament only in this epistle (v. 2; 5:7; 6:14). It means to have nothing in one's conduct on which someone could ground a charge or accusation. It differs slightly in meaning from its synonym anenklētos in 3:10 (see comments there). (2) Husband of but one wife, literally, a "one-woman man." This ambiguous but important phrase is subject to several interpretations. The question is, how stringent a standard was Paul erecting for overseers? Virtually all commentators agree that this phrase prohibits both polygamy and promiscuity, which are unthinkable for spiritual leaders in the church. Many Bible students say the words a "one-woman man" are saying that the affections of an elder must be centered exclusively on his wife. Many others hold, however, that the phrase further prohibits any who have been divorced and remarried from becoming overseers. The reasoning behind this view is usually that divorce represents a failure in the home, so that even though a man may be forgiven for any sin involved, he remains permanently disqualified for leadership in the congregation (cf. vv. 4-5; 1 Cor. 9:24-27). The most strict interpretation and the one common among the earliest commentators (second and third centuries) includes each of the above but extends the prohibition to any second marriage, even by widowers. Their argument is that in the first century second marriages were generally viewed as evidence of self-indulgence. Though Paul honored marriage, he also valued the spiritual benefits of celibacy (1 Cor. 7:37-38) even for those who had lost a mate (1 Tim. 5:3-14). Thus he considered celibacy a worthy goal for those who possessed the self-control to remain unmarried. According to this strict view Paul considered a widower's second marriage, though by no means improper, to be evidence of a lack of the kind of self-control required of an overseer . . .
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

 

[StanJ]

OK, than again. I wrote to weeks ago and i supposed you read it.

"Why you then not read what the word of god says? F.e. 1.Tim 2,11-14 ore Genesis 3,16? There it is clear said why a woman should not rule over man. And the role of a Pastor ore eldest is to lead and to have authority" Post 864

"Yes, that's right. But he told her not to teach them. As Dagallen said: man and woman are equal in front of God. Equal in their worth, not in their tasks. And the answer for the why we find in genesis 2,18-22;and 3,16. Why the woman should not be Pastor is reasoned in the sinfall, notbecause she is not able to do it. Ore she is less worth.
Of course today many Christians are not agree with it. But then they have to ignore the word of God!" post 866

So these are scriptures which shows that woman cant be pastors.
Where are the scriptures which shows that woman can be /should be Pastors? If there is no scripture for, but against it, how you can claim then that woman can be Pastor?
(Yes I know Genesis 2, 18-22 and Genesis 3, 16 speaking from married couple. So it would be better to mention Genesis 3,6, because 1. Tim 2, 12-14 is doing it.)

You're still not getting it wolf, the Bible does not say that women cannot teach men, the Bible says that a wife is not to have a spiritual leadership role in the home. Two different issues that you don't seem to understand. Timothy and Genesis 3 both relate to the husband-wife relationship not to a man woman relationship. No where in scripture does it say that a woman cannot teach a man and that is what you're not understanding.
You also totally ignored my question to you about 1st Timothy 2:15.

 

[wolfwint]

You're still not getting it wolf, the Bible does not say that women cannot teach men, the Bible says that a wife is not to have a spiritual leadership role in the home. Two different issues that you don't seem to understand. Timothy and Genesis 3 both relate to the husband-wife relationship not to a man woman relationship. No where in scripture does it say that a woman cannot teach a man and that is what you're not understanding.
You also totally ignored my question to you about 1st Timothy 2:15.

Where is 1.Tim.2, 12-14 wife husband relationship. This is your interpretation. And why Paul uesing the sinfall as reason for not ruling woman over man? Vers 15 is a different matter and has nothing to do with the OP theme.

 

[wolfwint]

Stan, i want to add: it makes no sence, if woman should not rule over man in marriage, but in church. Its a contradict which the Bible would taught then.

 

[wolfwint]

And a further Scripture for that you can also find in 1. Cor. 14, 33-36. How this fit together if a woman is Pastor and leading a church?

 

[StanJ]

Where is 1.Tim.2, 12-14 wife husband relationship. This is your interpretation. And why Paul uesing the sinfall as reason for not ruling woman over man? Vers 15 is a different matter and has nothing to do with the OP theme.

It's not my interpretation it's the context in which Paul is writing his letter to Timothy. In the Greek, γυνή (gynē) means a married woman, otherwise Paul would have used ὦ γύναι to signify all women as a gender, or, θῆλυς (thēlys) to represent female as Mark 10:6 does.
V15 goes to your mindset and is an integral part of this section of scripture and goes towards how you think the words are so plain and clear. You seem to be afraid to deal with this verse because it is so glaring given your declaration that the scripture is so clear. Are women saved because they bare children? Or is there more behind v15 than you care to admit?

 

[StanJ]

Stan, i want to add: it makes no sence, if woman should not rule over man in marriage, but in church. Its a contradict which the Bible would taught then.

It's not about ruling, that is your word, it's about headship and submission. Just as in any organization there can only be one leader, in the family there can only be one leader, but that does not mean that women cannot be pastors and teach other men.
Where does the bible say women cannot be Pastors in plain words? So far you haven't given us anything that says 'women cannot be pastors'.