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There is not enough information in John's revelation to identify who they were.
Also rightly accepting various verses such as:
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Phil 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
So all of the above statements have little sense of imminence to you, would I be correct?
How do you explain these statements if they are not applicable to the time in which they were written.
Also rightly accepting various verses such as:
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Phil 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
So all of the above statements have little sense of imminence to you, would I be correct?
How do you explain these statements if they are not applicable to the time in which they were written.
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Moses who represents our God as the law giver was used to help us understand the law of God will not enter the Kingdom of God, the new heavenly Jerusalem .
Moses in a parable was typified as the law giver. He struck the Rock which represents Christ, twice . It was a one time work as a sign to the rebellious.. Striking the rock twice would indicate Christ not fulling all of the righteous requirements of the law .That law that leads us towards Christ will be in effect till heaven and earth pass. Moses entered that kingdom by the hearing of Christ’s faith.
I would offer the verse below as a commentary to the parable.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Moses in a parable was typified as the law giver. He struck the Rock which represents Christ, twice . It was a one time work as a sign to the rebellious.. Striking the rock twice would indicate Christ not fulling all of the righteous requirements of the law .That law that leads us towards Christ will be in effect till heaven and earth pass. Moses entered that kingdom by the hearing of Christ’s faith.
I would offer the verse below as a commentary to the parable.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So you see the Second Coming as in the past? Are you saying it was a spiritual coming or was it physical?
I have no problem assigning most of the verses you cited to circa AD 70 events. But are you saying the Second Coming of Christ was this event related by Josephus?
I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
Locutus,
We are close in our thinking. Let's say that all of Mat 24 has been fulfilled and that the Wrath of the Lamb was poured out back in 70 AD. There are many verses which point to this besides those you cite.
So, in your understanding, what's next? How and when do things conclude on this planet?
We are close in our thinking. Let's say that all of Mat 24 has been fulfilled and that the Wrath of the Lamb was poured out back in 70 AD. There are many verses which point to this besides those you cite.
So, in your understanding, what's next? How and when do things conclude on this planet?
The coming was a spiritual event in that Jesus was after his ascension deity - i.e. he did not appear in a physical body
The judgment of the 66-70 AD war was exactly the way that God came in judgment in the past - God was never seen in those judgments:
Jesus stated to the high priest and the rest with him that they would see Him coming in the clouds of heaven:
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
What blasphemy?
Jesus was claiming he was coming in judgment as deity just as he had seen the father "coming in the clouds of heaven" in past judgments.
Jesus plainly tells the high priest and the council that they would be around to see him "coming in the clouds" - maybe not all of them lived to see it.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
This is said of God's judgement using an invading army - yet God was not physically present neither was He roaming around with a candle:
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
If we fail to understand what is involved in God's judgments, taking the figurative/apocalyptic language into account we make the mistake of making the figurative literal.
You will find other "cloud" theophanies" in the old testament.
As for the Lords "appearing":
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the supposed "rapture" off the planet according to some theologies.
So when did this event happen (regardless of how it all worked out)?
2 Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2 Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2 Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(2 Th 1:10 KJV) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord when the persecutors would be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."
This is the same coming/presence as in 1 Th 4:15-17.
If this relief did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians as Paul promised we would have to conclude that he was mistaken, or worse a false prophet.
I think he was neither.
The meeting in the air (figurative) was a spiritual event at the coming of the Lord not for the removal of the church but to dwell with it "so shall we ever be with the Lord":
There is no taking the church out of the world, but there is deliverance:
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
The judgment of the 66-70 AD war was exactly the way that God came in judgment in the past - God was never seen in those judgments:
Jesus stated to the high priest and the rest with him that they would see Him coming in the clouds of heaven:
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
What blasphemy?
Jesus was claiming he was coming in judgment as deity just as he had seen the father "coming in the clouds of heaven" in past judgments.
Jesus plainly tells the high priest and the council that they would be around to see him "coming in the clouds" - maybe not all of them lived to see it.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
This is said of God's judgement using an invading army - yet God was not physically present neither was He roaming around with a candle:
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
If we fail to understand what is involved in God's judgments, taking the figurative/apocalyptic language into account we make the mistake of making the figurative literal.
You will find other "cloud" theophanies" in the old testament.
As for the Lords "appearing":
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the supposed "rapture" off the planet according to some theologies.
So when did this event happen (regardless of how it all worked out)?
2 Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2 Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2 Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(2 Th 1:10 KJV) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord when the persecutors would be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."
This is the same coming/presence as in 1 Th 4:15-17.
If this relief did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians as Paul promised we would have to conclude that he was mistaken, or worse a false prophet.
I think he was neither.
The meeting in the air (figurative) was a spiritual event at the coming of the Lord not for the removal of the church but to dwell with it "so shall we ever be with the Lord":
There is no taking the church out of the world, but there is deliverance:
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
All things have not been fulfilled in Matthew 24.
1.The only time Jesus mentions the overthrow of Jerusalem is when the disciples said look at these buildings,as if they are important,and Jesus said they are coming down.
2.Then the disciples asked about the end of the world,and of His coming back,so Jesus told them.
3.Why is Jesus warning the disciples of spiritual deception if it is a physical overthrow of Jerusalem,and how can there be so much deception when Christianity is young,with the false prophets,and Christs.
4.Jesus said they see and hear of wars,and rumors of wars,and famines,and pestilences,on different places on earth,and nations against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,which how are the disciples supposed to know about that having a limited view of their world,for the only way they can know that is if there is technology today,which Daniel said he did not understand what was being told him,for it involved the world,but was told do not worry about it,and they will understand in the end time when there is advanced travel,and advanced technology,for they can see what the world is doing.
5.The Bible says immediately after the tribulation the resurrection will occur,which it has not happened yet,but is on the future,and how is that immediately after the tribulation if it happened back in 70 A.D.
6.The beast kingdom in Revelation says all nations,kindreds,and tongues,shall worship the beast whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life,and when they take the mark,make war against the saints,and scatter their power,then the resurrection will happen,and the wrath of God will be poured out on the world.The beast kingdom is all nations coming together,the whole world.
7.The Bible says that God is going to gather all nations together,not a few,not some,but all nations together,to go against Jerusalem,and that the whole earth,not some of the earth,shall be gathered together against her,and when they go against Israel,then God's fury shall come up in His face,and He shall come back with His saints,and fight the world,and the plague upon them is their flesh shall melt off their bones,and the people that God spared,a sixth of them,shall have to go up year after year to worship the LORD in Jerusalem.
8.There will be peace on earth for 1000 years.Animals will not fight,or eat,other animals,and will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other hand,and that animal will have no desire to hurt that child,and people will not war with people.When has that happened in the past.
9.The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD,and in that day there shall be one LORD,and His name one,which means people will not acknowledge any God,or religious figure,but only acknowledge the LORD.When did that happen in the past.
10.The 6th trumpet,a 200,000,000 men army that fights the world,and nuclear weapons are launched,and one third of the population of the earth perishes.When did that happen in the past.
11.Children will not bless their father,and will curse their mother,and be highly selfish,and highly arrogant,and will devour the poor from off the earth,and the needy from among men,which how can that happen in the past,for the only way the world can devour the poor and needy is if there is advanced travel,and technology,for they can branch out to more people to make money,people are more worldly to buy things and spend money,and there is more money in circulation,which this concerns the last generation before Jesus comes back.
12.The Bible tells us of cars and jets,and nuclear bombs,weapons that were not around the time of 70 A.D.,and have not been around that long.
There is prophesy in the Bible that there is no way it could of happened in the past,but some people believe that all things are fulfilled but the resurrection,but the Bible says the whole world will come together and rebel against God,and make war against the saints,they are resurrected,the wrath of God will be poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is when the whole world attacks Jerusalem and the Jews,and God comes back with His saints and fights the world and puts them down,then there is peace for a 1000 years,then the saints go to the New Jerusalem.
Why would Jesus be warning the saints about spiritual deception if it is a physical overthrow of Jerusalem,and how can there be so much deception when Christianity is young,but today we see the deception,and how can the saints back then see what the world is doing to see what Jesus told them would happen in different places on earth,but today we can see what the world is doing,and the saints asked Jesus to tell them of the end time and of His coming back,so Jesus told them,and how is the resurrection of the saints happening immediately after the tribulation of the saints if it happened back then,when the resurrection has not even happened yet.
If I got in my car and drove for a time of 32 hours to reach my destination,how did I immediately arrive there when I left.
1.The only time Jesus mentions the overthrow of Jerusalem is when the disciples said look at these buildings,as if they are important,and Jesus said they are coming down.
2.Then the disciples asked about the end of the world,and of His coming back,so Jesus told them.
3.Why is Jesus warning the disciples of spiritual deception if it is a physical overthrow of Jerusalem,and how can there be so much deception when Christianity is young,with the false prophets,and Christs.
4.Jesus said they see and hear of wars,and rumors of wars,and famines,and pestilences,on different places on earth,and nations against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,which how are the disciples supposed to know about that having a limited view of their world,for the only way they can know that is if there is technology today,which Daniel said he did not understand what was being told him,for it involved the world,but was told do not worry about it,and they will understand in the end time when there is advanced travel,and advanced technology,for they can see what the world is doing.
5.The Bible says immediately after the tribulation the resurrection will occur,which it has not happened yet,but is on the future,and how is that immediately after the tribulation if it happened back in 70 A.D.
6.The beast kingdom in Revelation says all nations,kindreds,and tongues,shall worship the beast whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life,and when they take the mark,make war against the saints,and scatter their power,then the resurrection will happen,and the wrath of God will be poured out on the world.The beast kingdom is all nations coming together,the whole world.
7.The Bible says that God is going to gather all nations together,not a few,not some,but all nations together,to go against Jerusalem,and that the whole earth,not some of the earth,shall be gathered together against her,and when they go against Israel,then God's fury shall come up in His face,and He shall come back with His saints,and fight the world,and the plague upon them is their flesh shall melt off their bones,and the people that God spared,a sixth of them,shall have to go up year after year to worship the LORD in Jerusalem.
8.There will be peace on earth for 1000 years.Animals will not fight,or eat,other animals,and will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other hand,and that animal will have no desire to hurt that child,and people will not war with people.When has that happened in the past.
9.The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD,and in that day there shall be one LORD,and His name one,which means people will not acknowledge any God,or religious figure,but only acknowledge the LORD.When did that happen in the past.
10.The 6th trumpet,a 200,000,000 men army that fights the world,and nuclear weapons are launched,and one third of the population of the earth perishes.When did that happen in the past.
11.Children will not bless their father,and will curse their mother,and be highly selfish,and highly arrogant,and will devour the poor from off the earth,and the needy from among men,which how can that happen in the past,for the only way the world can devour the poor and needy is if there is advanced travel,and technology,for they can branch out to more people to make money,people are more worldly to buy things and spend money,and there is more money in circulation,which this concerns the last generation before Jesus comes back.
12.The Bible tells us of cars and jets,and nuclear bombs,weapons that were not around the time of 70 A.D.,and have not been around that long.
There is prophesy in the Bible that there is no way it could of happened in the past,but some people believe that all things are fulfilled but the resurrection,but the Bible says the whole world will come together and rebel against God,and make war against the saints,they are resurrected,the wrath of God will be poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is when the whole world attacks Jerusalem and the Jews,and God comes back with His saints and fights the world and puts them down,then there is peace for a 1000 years,then the saints go to the New Jerusalem.
Why would Jesus be warning the saints about spiritual deception if it is a physical overthrow of Jerusalem,and how can there be so much deception when Christianity is young,but today we see the deception,and how can the saints back then see what the world is doing to see what Jesus told them would happen in different places on earth,but today we can see what the world is doing,and the saints asked Jesus to tell them of the end time and of His coming back,so Jesus told them,and how is the resurrection of the saints happening immediately after the tribulation of the saints if it happened back then,when the resurrection has not even happened yet.
If I got in my car and drove for a time of 32 hours to reach my destination,how did I immediately arrive there when I left.
The disciples did not ask about the "end of the world" - this is an unfortunate and wrong rendition in the KJV:
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The Greek word aion which means "age" it is not "world":
Mat 24:3 (Young's Literal) And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The Greek word aion which means "age" it is not "world":
Mat 24:3 (Young's Literal) And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
Locutus,
I agree 100% that most prophesy is fulfilled and that many of our brothers and sisters have wrongly missed it by failing to understand the events of AD 66-70. There are other verses besides those quoted which lend to a return of Messiah in vengeance back in AD 70.
In Matthew 10:23, Messiah declared to His disciples that they would not have gone through the cities of Israel before He came in power:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
In Matthew 16:28, Messiah declared that some of His disciples would see Him come into His kingdom:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
After berating the Jewish leaders and casting woes on them in Matthew 23, He said in verses 33-36, that they would be killed in their generation.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
No doubt within a Biblical generation of 40 years, history proves that in fact that the disciples and the High Priest, did see Him come in power and glory; when He caused the Roman army to desolate Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish leadership system.
Also, the symbol of ‘clouds‘ can represent judgment. In this case the judgment of the Jewish nation, which had rejected Him and delivered Him up to be killed. In Jeremiah 4:13 the word clouds is referring to the Babylonians whose army was coming against the Jews, as the Father’s judgment against them.
“Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!”
The father didn't actually return, but His judgment came like clouds.
Let's not forget that many of the zealots hid in caves once the Romans broke through the third wall.
So, let's assume for sake of argument this has all be fulfilled, again, what's next??
I agree 100% that most prophesy is fulfilled and that many of our brothers and sisters have wrongly missed it by failing to understand the events of AD 66-70. There are other verses besides those quoted which lend to a return of Messiah in vengeance back in AD 70.
In Matthew 10:23, Messiah declared to His disciples that they would not have gone through the cities of Israel before He came in power:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
In Matthew 16:28, Messiah declared that some of His disciples would see Him come into His kingdom:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
After berating the Jewish leaders and casting woes on them in Matthew 23, He said in verses 33-36, that they would be killed in their generation.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
No doubt within a Biblical generation of 40 years, history proves that in fact that the disciples and the High Priest, did see Him come in power and glory; when He caused the Roman army to desolate Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish leadership system.
Also, the symbol of ‘clouds‘ can represent judgment. In this case the judgment of the Jewish nation, which had rejected Him and delivered Him up to be killed. In Jeremiah 4:13 the word clouds is referring to the Babylonians whose army was coming against the Jews, as the Father’s judgment against them.
“Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!”
The father didn't actually return, but His judgment came like clouds.
Let's not forget that many of the zealots hid in caves once the Romans broke through the third wall.
So, let's assume for sake of argument this has all be fulfilled, again, what's next??
lol,it's just like reading the letters of the second century speaking of the very same events things are always narrowed down to this and this paragraph is fulfilled but this paragraph and this one is future. That's why no one likes the letters from the second century Church first Barnabas says something that seems preterite and then in the very next paragraph he speaks as a dispensationist. In A.H. book 5,chapters 25-onward Irenaeus is a Dispensationist but if you read from book one to the end of book 5 he said some things as if they are fulfilled. So who would want to use them as support for their theology as quick as you quote them in one place the other camp will quote from another.
There is no end of the world we've agreed on that, I don't know whether you understand that the Christian age has no end, whereas dispensationlism has it ending to be replaced by a physical Jewish theocracy:
What's next according to Paul:
Eph 3:14 (Young's Literal) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Eph 3:16 that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
Eph 3:17 that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
Eph 3:18 that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
Eph 3:19 to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled -- to all the fulness of God;
Eph 3:20 and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us
Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
Christ's reign and glory is to be throughout "all the generations of the age of the ages".
According to Greek scholar A.T. Robertson:
"The word aionios...means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word.
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Let me ask you a question - what do you think happens to Christians when they die?
What's next according to Paul:
Eph 3:14 (Young's Literal) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Eph 3:16 that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
Eph 3:17 that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
Eph 3:18 that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
Eph 3:19 to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled -- to all the fulness of God;
Eph 3:20 and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us
Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
Christ's reign and glory is to be throughout "all the generations of the age of the ages".
According to Greek scholar A.T. Robertson:
"The word aionios...means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word.
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Let me ask you a question - what do you think happens to Christians when they die?
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
John 18:36
Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
I am a preterist, but I don't think we have enough scriptural evidence to say that the earth will last forever- with God it is possible, but hardly conclusive.
Based on my own imagination, I would assume that God has created worlds before and that he will do it again, but scripturally I don't believe that we can get there.
Based on my own imagination, I would assume that God has created worlds before and that he will do it again, but scripturally I don't believe that we can get there.
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Young's Literal:
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Couple of questions this brings, who is being harvested, and what "end of the age" are we speaking of?
1 Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come
Paul is stating that they the Corinthians are living at the end of the previous ages.
Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested
So the harvest is at the time of the full end of the age which according to Hebrews he also was manifested in.
Let's look at this from another perspective. this time with the NIV:
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
John is saying the winnowing fork is already in His hand - the farmer only picks up the fork when the harvest is due or under way - which points to the 1st century AD.
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the harvest was in the 1st century AD.
Do you draw a different conclusion?
Young's Literal:
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Couple of questions this brings, who is being harvested, and what "end of the age" are we speaking of?
1 Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come
Paul is stating that they the Corinthians are living at the end of the previous ages.
Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested
So the harvest is at the time of the full end of the age which according to Hebrews he also was manifested in.
Let's look at this from another perspective. this time with the NIV:
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
John is saying the winnowing fork is already in His hand - the farmer only picks up the fork when the harvest is due or under way - which points to the 1st century AD.
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the harvest was in the 1st century AD.
Do you draw a different conclusion?
The issue I see is that the dispensational camp regularly directly contradict plain statements in the bible - I've rarely seen any in the preterist "camp" do that.
Jesus - "John the B is Elijah."
Dispensationlist - "he's not."
Let's get real here.
Jesus - "John the B is Elijah."
Dispensationlist - "he's not."
Let's get real here.
lol,I enjoy the answers they come up with when I ask them about the mark there's no end to what they’ll say. It's something I learned to expect that they would just come up with any answer. The preterist are completely different when I ask them about the mark they most time change the subject,ignore it but if they try to answer it it's like watching them walk past a fun-house mirror. I was in a think tank type email group a few years ago where we discussed the very issue and we came up with 20-30 questions to ask.lol,but no ones ever got past the first so I don’t see any reason to complicate it any further.
Hello iamsoandso,
So, what exactly do you think the mark is? The only answer that one can come up with, is the one that is in scripture. And I have already told Locutus that I am a dispensationalist, i.e. one who believes that Israel and the church are two different entities and believe in the literal interpretation of scripture, making exceptions for symbolisms, metaphors and figures of speech. and I believe and understand that John the Baptist was that Elijah that was to come, for it is stated right in scripture.
So, what exactly do you think the mark is? The only answer that one can come up with, is the one that is in scripture. And I have already told Locutus that I am a dispensationalist, i.e. one who believes that Israel and the church are two different entities and believe in the literal interpretation of scripture, making exceptions for symbolisms, metaphors and figures of speech. and I believe and understand that John the Baptist was that Elijah that was to come, for it is stated right in scripture.
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G
I explain it this way:
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. ~ Revelation 22:6
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. ~ Revelation 22:7
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. ~ Revelation 22:10
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ~ Revelation 22:12
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. ~ Revelation 22:20
O.K. - let me see if I have this...
'shortly' means "shortly"...
'quickly' means "quickly"...
Everything in Revelation is past...
Jesus has already returned...
Babylon has fallen...
The Wrath of God has been poured out onto the earth...
The Great White Throne Judgment Day is over...
The rewards have all been passed out...
Hell has been cast into the lake of fire...
We are now living in the new heaven and new earth...
New Jerusalem has come down from heaven...
There is no more sun or moon...
The Lamb has married His wife...
Consider:
Strong's G1096 for "come to pass" in Revelation 1:1
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
When I cannot find a specific definition tied to a particular usage - I generally use the first one, which is usually the most common usage. And, since most of these definitions carry with it the idea of "beginning and continuing" anyway -- I am going to suggest that the true "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Must Shortly Come To Pass' actually means "Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"...
And - yes - the phrase "shortly come to pass" in Revelation 1:1 and the phrase "shortly be done" in Revelation 22:6 are the same in the Greek.
"Something to think about..."
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. ~ Revelation 22:7
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. ~ Revelation 22:10
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ~ Revelation 22:12
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. ~ Revelation 22:20
O.K. - let me see if I have this...
'shortly' means "shortly"...
'quickly' means "quickly"...
Everything in Revelation is past...
Jesus has already returned...
Babylon has fallen...
The Wrath of God has been poured out onto the earth...
The Great White Throne Judgment Day is over...
The rewards have all been passed out...
Hell has been cast into the lake of fire...
We are now living in the new heaven and new earth...
New Jerusalem has come down from heaven...
There is no more sun or moon...
The Lamb has married His wife...
Consider:
Strong's G1096 for "come to pass" in Revelation 1:1
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
When I cannot find a specific definition tied to a particular usage - I generally use the first one, which is usually the most common usage. And, since most of these definitions carry with it the idea of "beginning and continuing" anyway -- I am going to suggest that the true "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Must Shortly Come To Pass' actually means "Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"...
And - yes - the phrase "shortly come to pass" in Revelation 1:1 and the phrase "shortly be done" in Revelation 22:6 are the same in the Greek.
"Something to think about..."
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