Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
[I think some of you folks haven't read very carefully through the Olivet Discourse. I'm not talking about a so-called "gathering of the church" right now. Nor am I talking about Rev. 7. Good grief - do you ever go far afield in a split second![/quote]
Hello MattTooFor,
First of all, it is because I have read very carefully and gone beyond far afield, comparing and cross-referencing scriptures inside and out, which is the reason why I am proclaiming this information to you.
OK so...the problem for PreTrib is that it claims this "gathering" (described here in the Olivet Discourse) comes on exactly the 1260th day of the second half of Daniel's 70th Week.
Once again, and as I said in my previous post, your error is not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
That said, Matt.24:29-31 is not regarding the gathering of the church, but is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and to establish his millennial kingdom.
The gathering that takes place in Matt.24:30, is synonymous with the parable of the weeds and the wheat in Matt.13. When Jesus returns to the earth, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up will be with, as will the angels. The angels will go throughout the earth and will "first" collect the weeds (one taken) and will bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, which is the word of God (Rev.19:21)
After that, the angels will collect the great tribulation saints and Israel (wheat) and who will have made it through the time of God's wrath, which is what is represented in Matt.24:30. That event is not the gathering of the church. The angels will be gathering living people in Matt.24:30. To be clear, Matt.24:30 is not the rapture.
When the Lord appears to gather the church, he will come like a thief in the night. And just like a thief, he will come unnoticed by the world and will remove the church. In opposition, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him - Matt.24:30, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21
At the gathering of the church, we are leaving the earth and being taken back to the Father's house. At the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the church is returning to the earth, following the Lord out of heaven - Rev.19:11-21
Your on-going error is not recognizing that these are two different events. The other problem that you have is that, prior to the Lord's return to the earth in Matt.24:29-31, is that before He returns, the wrath of God must be fulfilled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, if you have the church being gathered at Matt.24:29-31, then you have them going through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. We can't be here for God's wrath.
By the way, the reference to "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" is referring to when that time of wrath begins, not when it ends. In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives a detailed account of the gathering of the church. Then continuing in 1 Thes.5:1 Paul refers back to his detailed account of the gathering of the church stating the following:
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."
The "times and dates" that he mentions, would have to refer back to what he previously wrote, which is his detailed account of the gathering of the church and which he also refers to as "the day of the Lord." In fact, it is the gathering of the church which initiates the day of the Lord
The day of the Lord = The gathering of the church, which is followed by the wrath of God.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."
Now, brothers and sisters, about
times and dates (of the event above) we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that
the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
After the gathering of the church, then the wrath part of the day of the Lord follows, as demonstrated below:
While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
The unbelievers will not escape, but the believers that make up the church will, as demonstrated in very next verse:
"But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief"
The words "But you, brothers" in verse 4 automatically infers the opposite of not escaping, i.e. But brothers you will escape. How will they escape? In the detailed account of what Paul just described in 1 Thes.4:13-18.
By the way, at the end of Paul's detailed account of the dead being raised and the living being changed, he then says, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." That is, comfort one another with the fact that you are going to be changed and caught up before God's wrath. Consequently, if the church was to be gathered in Matt.24:29-31, which would put them through the entire wrath of God, there would be no reason to comfort one another with the promise of the gathering and that because believers would also suffer through the entire wrath of God and there would be no comfort in that. Neither would it be a blessed hope if believers were to go through God's wrath.
Keep in mind that God's coming wrath is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that all believers would have. Scripture states that God's wrath during that time is going to be upon the arrogant, the prideful, the exalted, the sexually immoral, liars, thieves and everyone who has rejected the salvation provided through the sacrifice of His Son. Believers within the church already have a repentant heart and will have been continuing in faith and longing for the Lord's appearing to gather them. Therefore, there would be absolutely no reason for the church to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And since God's wrath will come upon the whole world, with no where to hide, the church must be removed.
I am not against you, but I am contending for the truth that God has revealed to me through much study. I truly hope that you will look at every aspect of what I am proclaiming and perform a thorough exegesis.
What makes more sense to you, for the Lord to gather His church prior to his wrath or after? Would it be a blessed hope to be removed prior to God's wrath or after God's wrath?
Have a blessed evening!