Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Locutus]

No, this material world flies away at the judgement of the souls.

Then the heavenly Jerusalem is revealed, not before then.

(don't twist my words)

I haven't twisted anything, this is what you posted

Rev 20:11, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven flew away; and there was found no place for them."

The fire from heaven v 9, is the last event that takes place on this planet before the last judgement of souls.

Then this heaven and earth "fly away", into the endless void of space.

Then the new heavens and the new earth are seen, the old have passed away.



2 Cor 4:18, "....For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

The old earth that we see now flies away, the new heaven and earth which are not seen now, are eternal.

You contradicted yourself.

I said:

"Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Notice he says "we have", not "will have"

Paul claims it is in the heavens when he wrote "eternal", you have it fleeing and being destroyed.

But then you are misunderstanding what the "new heaven and earth" under the two covenants represent.

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

"Ye heavens" and "O earth" do not have ears - did you ever look through a telescope and notice than none of the planets have ears?



When you flit around all over the place it's hard to even bother answering.

 

[abcdef]

I assume that you a thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament.

If so, then read through Revelation 17 and 18 - notice how it repeatedly points to Jerusalem.

I can not read through it without seeing multiple references to Jerusalem...and I am quite sure that I am missing some.

Kings and Nations throughout the OT are made wealthy from Israel (until Israel/Judah return to God - then they tend to be punished on Israel's behalf).

The most of the cargoes are things that were to be used according to the Law of Moses.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” matches quite nicely with Luke 11:49-51 49 For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’

I am not sure exactly how this plays out and when (though I believe that it was during the 1st century), I am quite certain that this is Jerusalem.

Do you think the Revelation was written before or after the dest of Jeru ?

 

[GaryA]

As one who always tries to pay attention to the 'grammar of the language' ( as I like to call it ), I find it rather interesting that:


Revelation 11:

[SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:

[SUP]8[/SUP] And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:

[SUP]18[/SUP] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18:

[SUP]10[/SUP] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

[SUP]16[/SUP] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

[SUP]18[/SUP] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! [SUP]19[/SUP] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

[SUP]21[/SUP] And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 21:

[SUP]10[/SUP] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


~ The two places where 'the' is used, it is indisputable that it is referring to old Jerusalem.

~ The places where 'that' or 'this' is used is what y'all are debating.

~ One of the 'that' places is indisputably referring to new Jerusalem.

"That right there 'breaks' the idea that all 'great city' references are of the same city."

You cannot say that that does not matter because the name of the city is the same. That would be dumb. It is in fact a different city - albeit, with the same name - that we would not dare compare to the 'evil' city in question.

~ The word 'this' is used for grammatical reasons.

It "sort of" counts as a 'that', and can be "lumped in" with those. Besides, it is used along with four 'that' words also in the same context-of-passage.

So - what does that leave us with?

The possibility that 'the' "great city" is [ old ] Jerusalem, and the other references could possibly be [ simply ] another city also thought of as a "great city"...

Keep in mind that, in Revelation 16:19 - because of the phrase "and the cities of the nations fell" - and the colon after it - "great Babylon" is not necessarily the "great city" referenced in that verse.

( I say all of this with specific regard to the 'grammar of the language'. )

 

[abcdef]

I haven't twisted anything, this is what you posted



You contradicted yourself.

I said:

"Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Notice he says "we have", not "will have"

Paul claims it is in the heavens when he wrote "eternal", you have it fleeing and being destroyed.

The material world is destroyed, Gen 8:22.

But then you are misunderstanding what the "new heaven and earth" under the two covenants represent.

Well why don't you tell me all about it?

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

"Ye heavens" and "O earth" do not have ears - did you ever look through a telescope and notice than none of the planets have ears?



When you flit around all over the place it's hard to even bother answering.

I'm sure that you will help me get it right, right?

 

[GaryA]

~ The two places where 'the' is used, it is indisputable that it is referring to old Jerusalem.

By 'old' Jerusalem, I mean the one John knew of in his day - that we know of today - i.e. - the "current" Jerusalem, in End Times prophetic terms.

 

[iamsoandso]

John is not speaking about the physical earth and heaven - he speaking of the "heaven and earth" created when God gave his words to Israel at Mount Sinai:

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

How can God plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth twice?

He already created the physical heavens in Genesis. He never gave the Israelites his word when creating the physical heavens and earth.

lol,I wondered about how we would see it, either physical or spiritual and if we would see it physical in one place and spiritual in another back on pg.13 post 256-259.

 

[Timeline]

First, I would like to remind everyone on this post of this:

2 Timothy 2:24 (ESV)
24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

1 Corinthians 16:14 (ESV)
14 Let all that you do be done in love.

1 John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Second, if Christ already returned and there is no second coming, these verses become false, making God a liar (1 Jn. 5:10). Additionally, how did the entire world miss an event such as that describing Christ’s return?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (ESV)
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 (ESV)
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.


Third, seeking man’s wisdom, which is foolishness (1 Cor. 3:19) by following teachings such as those described in this post is the definition of seeking to establish one’s own righteousness and not that which comes from God (Rom. 10:3), as well as going to man rather than God as in Isaiah 30/31.

John 16:13 (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

I don't know...how did the Jews miss the first?

 

[GaryA]

Oh, and:

~ Both words 'the' and 'that' are not found together in the same context being used to describe the same 'great city'.





"Food for thought" ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I assume that you a thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament.

If so, then read through Revelation 17 and 18 - notice how it repeatedly points to Jerusalem.

I can not read through it without seeing multiple references to Jerusalem...and I am quite sure that I am missing some.

Kings and Nations throughout the OT are made wealthy from Israel (until Israel/Judah return to God - then they tend to be punished on Israel's behalf).

The most of the cargoes are things that were to be used according to the Law of Moses.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” matches quite nicely with Luke 11:49-51 49 For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’

I am not sure exactly how this plays out and when (though I believe that it was during the 1st century), I am quite certain that this is Jerusalem.

Good day Timeline,

There is nothing in Rev.17 & 18 that is pointing to Israel. The angel told John that the woman who rides the beast "is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth" and that city sits on seven hills. At the time that John was receiving that information, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth, which is meant to point us to Rome's pagan religious system, Roman Catholicism. There are many other scriptural proofs, but I'll present the following:


The woman who rides the beast, Mystery, Babylon the great ,that great city:

"And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."

The Result of the beast and the ten kings

With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again.

The city of Jerusalem:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

According to the scripture above, the camp of God's people, the city that he loves (Jerusalem) will be inhabited during the millennial period. In opposition, the woman who rides the beast, that great city who rules over the kings of the earth and that sits on seven hills, is destroyed during the great tribulation period, which is before the thousand years begins. According to the scripture above, it's destruction will leave it never to be inhabited ever again. Yet, Jerusalem is seen to be inhabited during the millennial period.

 

[Locutus]

Lets look at this:

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This is a somewhat misleading rendition of the Greek text, this how 17:18 should be literally translated:

"the great city, the one having a kingdom over the kings (or kings of the land)"

How does this city have a kingdom that is "over" the other kings/kingdoms:

In God's scheme of things the kingdom of Israel had preeminence over all other kingdoms - they were not "reigning" over the other kings/kingdoms.

No other nation was held in a position "over" the nations and kingdoms as Israel had:

(Exo 19:6 KJV) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The same motif occurs in Ezekiel:


(Ezek 5:5 KJV) Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

In the "midst" is more correctly translated "centre" - Israel was in the centre and "over" the other nations and kingdom.

Therefore the claim "when has Jerusalem ever "reigned" over the kings of the earth?" is based on a really poor translation of the Greek text.

Therefore Rev 17:18 is correctly ascribed as the great city of Israel/Jerusalem.


Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

 

[Timeline]

Do you think the Revelation was written before or after the dest of Jeru ?

I lean toward before, but I mainly use the Bible, as I am reluctant to completely believe "man's" record of history.

I have read some speculations by scholars, and such, but that is what they are - speculations.

It is difficult to put together much of a timeline based on the New Testament alone.


I have thought of the possibility that Revelation refers to OT prophecy as opposed to introducing a new prophecy. As you probably know, there are hundreds of references to OT prophecy in the book of Revelation. I have heard that there are over 500 hundred references to the OT in Revelation; I am not sure that there are that many, but they are there. What if John just laid out previous prophecies in a different way and order.

I do not pretend to understand the whole book, but I do believe that "soon" means "soon".

 

[Timeline]

Good day Timeline,

There is nothing in Rev.17 & 18 that is pointing to Israel. The angel told John that the woman who rides the beast "is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth" and that city sits on seven hills.

John also said that "Five have fallen" - but they are all still there!

I will read more later tonight, but I have to go for now.

 

[Locutus]

lol,I wondered about how we would see it, either physical or spiritual and if we would see it physical in one place and spiritual in another back on pg.13 post 256-259.

It depends on context:

(Mat 5:13 KJV) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Is Jesus speaking about the physical earth needing a pinch of salt to make the dirt taste better?

Stick that on yer tongue....

 

[Locutus]

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Obviously warfare is being described in the above

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts (Greek G3313 meros)......

Here is one of the other definitions of "parts" or the Greek "meros"


IV.a part, as opp. to the whole, ἡμέρας μ. Aesch.: a division of an army


Here is what Josephus had to say about the war of 66-70 AD:

In Wars 5.1.1 and Wars 5.1.4 Josephus described the conditions in Jerusalem in December 69 AD:


...sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other… one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.


" And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations (Greek - ethnos - G1484) - fell.

Strongs

G1484 ethnos eth'-nos

probably from G1486;

a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish)
one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

John in the Greek is distinguishing between the Jewish "great city" and the cities of the ethnos which are non-Jewish

This is another proof establishing that the great city is not an "ethnos" city, as John already stated "where also our Lord was crucified."

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Really, everything you see in this chart would indicate people would know the very day? Please reveal to me that day and hour according to the Chart?

What? You can't. Why? Because the chart does NOT reveal no day nor hour when He will return as you are suggesting. Neither have i done such a thing in the diagram.

Have you found anything in the diagram that is incorrect according to Scriptures, or is this the only thing you are going to reply about?

According to your chart, the Lord returns exactly 1260 days after the mid point of the 7 year period.

You do error in saying that it shows 1260 days. There is merely a line in the middle. This has NOTHING to do with an actual day. Nor do i know if it is EXACTLY in the middle of the 7 year Tribulation period. Had to put the line somewhere. i know that at some time DURING the Middle of the Tribulation period is when that LINE will indeed happen. There could be 1258 days before the line and 1262 days after the line. i know not the day or the hour of His return. What i do know for a FACT is it will happen some time in the MIDDLE of the Tribulation Period, which is what the diagram reflects. But the diagram does not reflect any actual days at all, like you are assuming.

If you don't recognize that the "gathering of the elect" happens at an unspecified point sometime during the second 1260-day period when there appear these huge cosmic events (the darkening of the sun and the moon, starts falling from the sky, etc)...you are thus placing the "return" of the Lord at exactly the 1260th day.

The Diagram shows the Return of Christ during the MIDDLE of the 7 year Tribulation Period, it does not show, reflect, or even indicate it is EXACTLY on the 1260th day, like you are assuming.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[GaryA]

Obviously warfare is being described in the above

Well, no --- no, it is not...


Revelation 16:

[SUP]16[/SUP] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. [SUP]17[/SUP] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. [SUP]18[/SUP] And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. [SUP]20[/SUP] And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SUP]21[/SUP] And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


The armies may have been ready to fight ( verse 16 ), but these verses describe 'miraculous' physical upheaval on the Earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Obviously warfare is being described in the above

Good day Locutus,

"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

Though I believe that the beast and ten kings are initially going to nuke the woman who rides the beast, that great city. However, the reason as described in the scripture above as to why the city splits into three parts, as well as the cities of the nations collapsing, will be due to that greatest earthquake to ever hit since mankind has been on the earth. Ergo, "so tremendous was the quake that the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't think I ever said the beast was Israel - you tend to conflate things.

The beast "supported" the harlot - this is precisely the thing we see in the 1st century - Rome is the ruling power over the leaders of Israel - that they were in league with Rome to keep their authority and the peace from the malcontents can't be disputed.

The descriptions John gives about the whore fit 1st century Israel precisely:

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.


Shimon Applebaum in his "The Jewish People in the First Century" has this to say:

"the participation of Jews in Mediterranean trade is well attested. Jewish sailors and traders traveled as far as Spain and Alexandria. The Jews engaged in Maritime enterprise so sufficiently that they organized "guilds" of shipowners to protect themselves from maritime loses."


Jeremias in his book "Jerusalem in the time of Jesus" stated "The national capitol influenced commerce in two ways. It drew trade towards Jerusalem by promoting business transactions, and it provided a ready market for trade because of the heavy demand for luxury clothing, jewelry etc., a demand met by foreign trade"...which consisted of "food supples, precious metals, luxury goods and clothing materials.


Israel's importance as a world trader was the reason that Herod the Great built the artificial sea port city of Caesarea.

It is well known that Syrian and Jewish traders had a large share of foreign commerce under the Roman Empire.

So the description of 1st Century Israel fits well with the description of the harlot with the loss of such a great market.

A couple of comments. The beast John describes in Rev 13, the lion, leopard, bear, corresponds to the first three beasts of Dan 7, the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks. The fourth beast was Rome but he didn't use the "Terrible" beast as his description.

The Harlot "rides" the Beast. This indicates that the false religion controls the Beast. How did 1st century Israel control Nero?

Nero died in 68 AD. As Rev 19 tells us, the Beast of the Earth is the False Prophet to the Beast of the Sea. If Nero was the Beast of the Sea, who was his false prophet who worked signs calling fire down to earth etc?

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The above also indicates that the two beasts were captured, then cast into the lake of fire alive. Nero was never captured. He was about to be captured but ordered his aid to kill him first.

Although the items mentioned and the merchants who were sad appear to fit first century Israel, they also fit today's trade with Mecca. If you research what the Kings of Arabia import, you will see many of these same luxury items.

Jerusalem is likely too far from the Sea for the first century conventional fire to be seen by sailors. I know Jerusalem is situated on a hill but there are lower hills below it so that it is nestled in there and the distance as a crow flies is about 33 miles. The sailors were said to be standing afar off for fear of sharing in the harlot's torment making the fire even further away and less visible. Whereas a nuclear blast of even the smallest size at Mecca would be visible all the way across the Red Sea.

The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment...

What beef would Rome have against these merchants? Why should these sailors fear that Titus would send his troops to the Mediterranean to attack them, assuming he even had ships at the ready?

Lastly, one of the items being sold to the Harlot was this:

"...and bodies and souls of men."

Was first century Israel engaged in slavery? I know Rome was. I honestly don't know. But we do know the Saudis today are the number one country engaged in slavery with over 1 million sex and labor slaves.

There is no doubt that Jerusalem was being referred to as a Harlot in the Bible but I'm just not sure it applies here.

 

[PlainWord]

You should add a few years to your 70 A.D. time frame ( i.e. - 66-73 ).

Even though I imagine the things mentioned in verses 9-13 did happen before this time frame, I place the "bulk" of it as beginning during this time frame - especially in the 70 A.D. aftermath...

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that the verses associated with rows 8,10,11,12,16,17 in my chart are describing "great tribulation" events occurring during this timeframe? Yes or No?

Gary,

Yes, we can go from 66 to 73 AD if you like but Jerusalem was literally wiped clean from the face of the earth by the end of 70 AD. Masada, which is where some of the zealots who escaped fled, I do not believe has any relevance to the events of the Olivet.

Row 8: The killing of the disciples. This happens during the "Beginnings of Sorrows." All but John (including Paul) were martyred prior to 70 AD. I believe Jesus was speaking specifically about them and not future Christians in general.

Row 10: Yes, goes with Row 8.

Row 11: Hated, betrayed, false prophets: This should be taken in two. The disciples were indeed hated by many of the Jews and Gentiles in and outside of Israel. Paul was almost lynched in Ephesus. They were routinely jailed and beaten. The betrayals and false prophets before and during the Roman siege of Jerusalem was written about extensively by Josephus.

Betrayals: Tyrants John and Simon who came from the north to Jerusalem after Rome captured their cities were constantly fighting each other and killing each other all over the temple mount, both inside and outside the temple. The murdering of their own countrymen inside the temple Josephus referred to as "polluting the temple." Both of these tyrants were brutal to the people. They would rob and kill their own citizens by the thousands. They would send spies among the priests and those who opposed them to learn their plans and would kill anyone they thought a threat. They would also kill anyone they thought were a danger to flee to the Romans knowing those fleeing would exchange information for their lives. They would break into houses to steal food and demand to be told where it was hidden. Children would rat out the parents and vice versa to be spared. The common people feared Simon and John more than the Romans.

False prophets: Numerous false prophets rose up between 66-70 AD. They claimed to be the Messiah and offered to lead people out of the city to freedom under their divine protection. The Romans would catch them and slaughter them. After the Romans broke through one false Messiah organized 10,000 people to follow him to fight the Romans, all were killed. This is why Jesus warned, "not to go with them, because when He comes it will be fast like lightening." He isn't going to walk up to you claiming to be Messiah.

12. Enduring to the end. Over 1.1 million Jews were killed during the fall of Jerusalem. Most were killed by their own people. The Romans were actually trying to get John and Simon to surrender so that they could spare the temple and city but they made life so difficult with their lies and treachery that by the time the Roman's broke through the troops went on a killing spree. They didn't stop until their arms were too tired to thrust their swords into any more bodies. The people who were still alive were so weak from starvation that they couldn't put up much of a fight. Those who survived to the end of the war were spared. They were fed and used to dismantle the entire city, stone by stone including the foundation of each building. They were then lead to Caesaria and eventually Rome to take part in Titus' triumphant parade.

16. The Great Tribulation. If you read War of the Jews it will leave you with no doubt that this was the worst tribulation any nation on earth EVER experienced. They were starved to death to the point of eating their own babies. They were tortured and killed by their own people. They were robbed, raped and murdered by the thousands. Because they were surrounded by Romans they couldn't get the bodies out of the city so they either stacked the dead in houses or left them to rot in the streets. Early on they would try to sneak the dead out of the gate and pile them up between the city and the Roman embankments by the tens of thousands. Some bodies they would throw over the wall. It was a real horror show.

The Romans would usually pursue anyone who tried to escape as they did in the outlying cities and would usually kill those they caught. But the Christian Jews who fled to Pella, Rome did not chase and all made it through alive.

17. False Christs: Already addressed above.

So you see, everything Jesus foretells leading up to the Great Tribulation happened back then. Luke 21 tells us that the Abomination of Desolation was indeed the Roman troops. They were the trigger for the Christians to flee. They had a short window when Vespasian suddenly withdrew and before Titus came. There was a massive Christian church on Mount Zion where the Christian Jews huddled together. According to Josephus, they heard a voice from heaven telling them it was time to leave. All who listened made it out alive.

 

[iamsoandso]

This is the very point I spoke of at the beginning of the thread in that something took place in ad70(DoJ) but what? Each and every time it is narrowed down to the Beast the AoD,the mark,the harlot ect. it will fall all apart and become indefensible because the events of 66-70 do not match the prophecies concerning ad66-70.

It is always narrowed down, to oop's the stone cut out is not being cast at the ten toes/horns of Rome the thing taking place in ad66-70 is being done to Jerusalem and the Jews and even if it's considered in light of the "harlot" and compared to Daniel in Daniel there is no mention of an "woman" riding any of the beast in Daniel,it all unravels here (no offence it just does).