Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Locutus]

In the links I gave research who the Ebionites,Nazorenes mentioned in the "flight to Pella" link and see what they believed and taught. in the one reference "Eutychius of Alexandria" is quoted,in his Quote James the brother of Jesus is killed before the war(ad66-70) but by Church tradition he lives to be an old man around 100.

The problem is that there is so much speculation around the Ebionites and Nazarenes that historians can't agree:

Eusebius relates a tradition, probably based on Aristo of Pella, that the early Christians left Jerusalem just prior to the war and fled to Pella beyond the Jordan River, but does not connect this with Ebionites.[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] They were led by Simeon of Jerusalem (d. 107) and during the Second Jewish-Roman War of 115–117, they were persecuted by the Jewish followers of Bar Kochba for refusing to recognize his messianic claims.[SUP][28]

[/SUP]Like I said I don't put much stock in that - and really my understanding of the "end times" is based on what the scriptures say and how best to understand them.

If an historical reference can add a piece that seems to fit in the jigsaw puzzle I'l use it to fill in the "blanks" a little.

 

[Ahwatukee]

iamsoandso,


The great time of trouble that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24 etc,

Was from 70 ad until 1967, when Israel was restored to control of Jerusalem.

Hello John,

NO, the great tribulation was not from70 AD until 1967! Here's the scripture:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."


The great tribulation begins when the abomination has been set up, which will be 3 1/2 years after the antichrist establishes his covenant with Israel, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age at the end of that time. This coming time of great tribulation will be the worst time that the world has ever seen. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are those events that will make up that entire seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation.

All of that said, the world has seen nothing like what is described in the events of wrath. The result being the decimation of the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. The earth will be in shambles! The oceans and fresh water will have all been turned to literal blood, the cities of the nations will have all collapsed due to the greatest earthquake to ever hit since mankind has been on the earth, etc., etc.

No, we have not yet seen those days of tribulation/great tribulation, but they are coming quickly. Jesus said that he would build his church and the church age is quickly coming to an end where the Lord will soon be appearing and removing his church prior to his wrath being poured out. Regarding this coming wrath, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities will be approximately 50% of the population with in the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities that result from trumpets 1,2 & 3 nor of the seven bowl judgments. Needless to say, the world has not seen that magnitude of world-wide death. Nor has the world seen the likes of any of those events of plagues.

 

[abcdef]

The "man of sin" is often misunderstood, elements that would give a time indicator for the "man of sin" are glossed over:

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Obviously Paul is adding to what he already told them about this character "when I was yet with you"

Even though we are not privy to the conversations Paul had with them we can draw some very positive conclusions:

The "man of sin" is a man - as a man we know that the iniquity that he was "involved" in "doth already work".

This means the "man of sin" was alive during Paul's writing - no man alive then is alive today.

The "man of sin" was something that the Thessalonian's and Paul were concerned with, if "the man of sin" is hundreds of years into the future then they would have no real interest in this as it had no practical effect on their daily lives.

Something was "withholding" him - it can hardly be said that he's been withheld/restrained for 1900 years and counting.

That there was a "falling away" in the 1st century prior to Jerusalem's destruction is well attested in the new testament letters.

Conclusion - the man of sin was a 1st century AD phenomena.

Locutus,

I agree with this, 1st century.

--

Please explain v8 in that passage,

2 Thess 2:8, And then that wicked shall be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

 

[abcdef]

Hello John,

NO, the great tribulation was not from70 AD until 1967! Here's the scripture:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."


The great tribulation begins when the abomination has been set up, which will be 3 1/2 years after the antichrist establishes his covenant with Israel, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age at the end of that time. This coming time of great tribulation will be the worst time that the world has ever seen. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are those events that will make up that entire seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation.

All of that said, the world has seen nothing like what is described in the events of wrath. The result being the decimation of the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. The earth will be in shambles! The oceans and fresh water will have all been turned to literal blood, the cities of the nations will have all collapsed due to the greatest earthquake to ever hit since mankind has been on the earth, etc., etc.

No, we have not yet seen those days of tribulation/great tribulation, but they are coming quickly. Jesus said that he would build his church and the church age is quickly coming to an end where the Lord will soon be appearing and removing his church prior to his wrath being poured out. Regarding this coming wrath, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities will be approximately 50% of the population with in the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities that result from trumpets 1,2 & 3 nor of the seven bowl judgments. Needless to say, the world has not seen that magnitude of world-wide death. Nor has the world seen the likes of any of those events of plagues.

My Brother,

The 7 times are not literal years. The numbers are symbolic of a time period of God's choosing.

The texts never say 7 years, because they are not years.

---

The 1st, 3 1/2 t's is shown by the angel in Dan. 12 to be,

From the statement of the angel in Babylon, until 70 ad, when the power of the holy people is scattered.

This is a time period way longer than 3 1/2 years.

---

The 2nd, 3 1/2t's is from 70 ad until Israel was restored to Jerusalem, 1967.

This 2nd time period is also known as "the times of the gentiles" and the "great trib" when Israel was persecuted by Rome the 4th beast.
-
This last 3 1/2ts, has lasted for over 1900 years.

This time period is totally unaccounted for in pre trib..

The persecution of Rome on Israel has caused millions to die and suffer.

(Don't you see that under pre trib, you deny this 1900 year time period and the crimes of Caesar and the Bishop of Rome?)


---

These 2 periods together are the same as the statue of the nations in Dan. 2,

Which is the time that Israel and Jerusalem are under the control of the gentile nations.

---

Now that Israel is restored to Jerusalem, the building of the statue is finished and the 7 times are complete.

The stone is about to strike.

The statue is still alive, for now.

---

 

[Locutus]

Locutus,

I agree with this, 1st century.

--

Please explain v8 in that passage,

2 Thess 2:8, And then that wicked shall be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

"that wicked" is the man of sin. What else could it be?

 

[abcdef]

"that wicked" is the man of sin. What else could it be?

Who is the man of sin?

How is it, that the man of sin is consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed with the brightness of His coming?

 

[Locutus]

Who is the man of sin?

How is it, that the man of sin is consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed with the brightness of His coming?

Must be an echo in here..



Who are you claiming the man of sin is?

How?

Just the regular method of consuming..

 

[abcdef]

Must be an echo in here..



Who are you claiming the man of sin is?

How?

Just the regular method of consuming..

So sad,

You can't answer a simple question.

 

[Locutus]

So sad,

You can't answer a simple question.

I'm waiting on you - then I can see where you are coming from.

 

[abcdef]

I'm waiting on you - then I can see where you are coming from.

I asked you first, ha ha.

 

[Locutus]

To be honest I don't have a candidate for the man of sin.

So I'm all "ears"........

 

[abcdef]

To be honest I don't have a candidate for the man of sin.

So I'm all "ears"........

The man of sin is,

The little horn of Dan. 7:8, 24-25.

And he is the prince whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary Dan 9:26.

He is Caesar.

--

The identity of the 4th beast nation, and the iron legs nation, as being Rome and Caesar, was "confirmed" by the dest of Jeru, 70 ad.

Fulfilling the prophecies.

--

The "consuming" is the conversion of people into the Pentecost Kingdom (church).

The statue in Dan. 2, with the iron Roman legs, is being consumed by the kingdom Dan. 2:44, which is conversion of souls to Christianity.

The 4th beast of Dan. 7:26, is being consumed, as the iron legs are.

The beast of Rome is fighting, but the people of the beast nation are being converted to the Pentecost Kingdom.

--

The destroying of the man of sin, Caesar, happens at the 2nd resurrection, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

And then it is the end 1 Cor 15:23-28,23-24.

Which hasn't happened yet.

--

The beast nation/Caesar that is destroyed "at the brightness His coming",

Is not the Original Roman Empire beast nation,

But the Roman beast nation that comes out of the abyss.

---

Remember, that the beast nation must enter the abyss and come out again.

That the 7 heads die, and yet there is an 8th, that lasts until perdition (spiritual destruction).

That the sea beast dies, and the earth beast makes an image.

All these things happen,

And yet the iron legs etc., are shown as one solid piece, .... nation.

So Rome and Caesar in some form (RCC), must last until they are destroyed at the 2nd/last resurrection, the brightness of His coming, when Jesus comes for the Pentecost Kingdom.

 

[Locutus]

Man, there's so much wrong in your post there it'll take me till Pentecost to correct it...

"The "consuming" is the conversion of people into the Pentecost Kingdom (church)."

I haven't got a clue what the above means - there is no "Pentecost" kingdom.

There is a kingdom of God and a kingdom of his Son - these are one and the same:

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.


The rest will I set in order when I return......

 

[tanakh]

One of the main reasons for so much confusion with regard to the last days is the mixing of Spiritual and Physical realities.
Many passages have more than one meaning with regard to timing and events. This leads people to misapply scripture and distort the true meaning of a passage. Words used by Jesus and in Revelation are forced to mean something other than that intended such as ''This generation'' and ''soon''. Its like taking pieces of a jigsaw and forcing them into the wrong place. Another mistake is the failure to understand is that the Jewish way of using language and thought in Scripture is different from ours.

I saw in the night visions and behold one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came to the Ancient of days and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people
nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away and his kingdom shall not be destroyed

Dan 7:13-14

And the high priest answered and said unto him I adjure you thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven

Matt 26:63-64

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said Ye man of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:10-11

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Matt 24:30

In these verses there are two different but similar descriptions of Jesus coming with clouds. The first two are about
him ascending to heaven and ruling from heaven. He says that those living including the high priest will see (Perceive)
this. Clouds are a symbol for Gods Judgement which happened to Israel in 70Ad The second is about his actual return to earth.
in judgement.

 

[GaryA]

One of the main reasons for so much confusion with regard to the last days is the mixing of Spiritual and Physical realities. { Yes - and that is exaclty what you have done here... }
Many passages have more than one meaning with regard to timing and events. This leads people to misapply scripture and distort the true meaning of a passage. Words used by Jesus and in Revelation are forced to mean something other than that intended such as ''This generation'' and ''soon''. Its like taking pieces of a jigsaw and forcing them into the wrong place. Another mistake is the failure to understand is that the Jewish way of using language and thought in Scripture is different from ours. { Exactly. And that is why people refuse to believe that the "sense and tense" of the wording of the passages that include "this generation" and "soon" is such that the meaning is "very soon these things will begin to come to pass" -- which clears up all confusion in a heartbeat - IF people would simply believe it. }

I saw in the night visions and behold one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came to the Ancient of days and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people
nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away and his kingdom shall not be destroyed

Dan 7:13-14

And the high priest answered and said unto him I adjure you thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven

Matt 26:63-64

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said Ye man of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:10-11

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Matt 24:30

In these verses there are two different but similar descriptions of Jesus coming with clouds. The first two are about
him ascending to heaven and ruling from heaven. He says that those living including the high priest will see (Perceive)
this. Clouds are a symbol for Gods Judgement which happened to Israel in 70Ad The second is about his actual return to earth.
in judgement.

With sufficient Bible study, you can discover that every place in scripture that depicts Jesus "coming with clouds" is referring to His literal return as the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'Ancient of days' is the Father. The scene depicted in Danial 7:13-14 is a future one occuring above the Earth at the Second Coming before the [ literal, physical ] 1000-year reign of Christ. It is that simple. Believe what it [ actually ] says...

One of the worse things people do is to 'spiritualize' a passage that is describing something that is [ physically ] 'literal'.

All of the verses you quoted are talking about the same thing - the [ literal, physical ] Second Coming of Christ - not two different things as you suggest.

People need to stop 'spiritualizing' the events of scripture that they do not wish to believe are or can be literal.

( Because, then --- it would make a whole lot more sense to them... )

 

[tanakh]

With sufficient Bible study, you can discover that every place in scripture that depicts Jesus "coming with clouds" is referring to His literal return as the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'Ancient of days' is the Father. The scene depicted in Danial 7:13-14 is a future one occuring above the Earth at the Second Coming before the [ literal, physical ] 1000-year reign of Christ. It is that simple. Believe what it [ actually ]

says...

One of the worse things people do is to 'spiritualize' a passage that is describing something that is [ physically ] 'literal'.

All of the verses you quoted are talking about the same thing - the [ literal, physical ] Second Coming of Christ - not two different things as you suggest.

People need to stop 'spiritualizing' the events of scripture that they do not wish to believe are or can be literal.

( Because, then --- it would make a whole lot more sense to them... )

Its obvious to me that you havn't considered the scriptures I gave in the post. far from spiritualising them I used a perfectly Biblical method of interpreting them by comparing scripture with scripture., At his trial Jesus replies to the high priests question by quoting Daniels Son of Man passage.In that passage there is no mention of the Son of man being above the earth but of him being brought before the Father(Ancient of days) and being given dominion. The Father is in Heaven
Jesus ascended into Heaven in a cloud. He told the High Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven. Clouds represent Gods Judgement in many places in the Bible. Unless Caiphas repented he is hardly likely to be raptured at Christs return so how else could he see him but by perceiving him through the judgement experienced by Jerusalem and its Temple within his lifetime? The kingdom of God
is a spiritual kingdom. Christ reigns now in that kingdom. The Millennial Kingdom is temporary. The New Heavens and New Earth are eternal.

 

[Locutus]

Matt 26:63-64 And the high priest answered and said unto him I adjure you thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said Ye man of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory


I don't see any "argument" to say they are not all speaking of the same event - 70AD.

Why would Acts 1:10,11 not just be a repetition of what the disciples had already heard in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem?


Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The above parallel sayings point to the events in revelation as belonging to the same time frame, the 1st century AD.

 

[Ahwatukee]

He told the High Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven. Clouds represent Gods Judgement in many places in the Bible. Unless Caiphas repented he is hardly likely to be raptured at Christs return so how else could he see him but by perceiving him through the judgement experienced by Jerusalem and its Temple within his lifetime? The kingdom of God

Good day Tanakh,

The reference to "you" in Mark 14:62 may be referring to those of Israel who would be living at the time when the second coming takes place. If it is referring specifically to the high priest and those gathered with him, then it would be referring to God allowing them to see Jesus returning to the earth from the location of Sheol/Hades. What Jesus says in verse 62 is synonymous with Rev.1:7.

 

[abcdef]

One of the main reasons for so much confusion with regard to the last days is the mixing of Spiritual and Physical realities.
Many passages have more than one meaning with regard to timing and events. This leads people to misapply scripture and distort the true meaning of a passage. Words used by Jesus and in Revelation are forced to mean something other than that intended such as ''This generation'' and ''soon''. Its like taking pieces of a jigsaw and forcing them into the wrong place. Another mistake is the failure to understand is that the Jewish way of using language and thought in Scripture is different from ours.

I saw in the night visions and behold one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came to the Ancient of days and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people
nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away and his kingdom shall not be destroyed

Dan 7:13-14

And the high priest answered and said unto him I adjure you thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven

Matt 26:63-64

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said Ye man of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:10-11

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Matt 24:30

In these verses there are two different but similar descriptions of Jesus coming with clouds. The first two are about
him ascending to heaven and ruling from heaven. He says that those living including the high priest will see (Perceive)
this. Clouds are a symbol for Gods Judgement which happened to Israel in 70Ad The second is about his actual return to earth.
in judgement.

Brother tanakh,

I agree.

Jesus came with "clouds" of armies, at the dest of Jeru.

Scriptures showing the Lord bringing clouds of armies,

Isa 19:1, "..., The Lord rideth upon a swift cloud,..."

Jer 4 13, "Behold he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind:..."

Ez 38:9, "Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land,..."

 

[abcdef]

Matt 26:63-64 And the high priest answered and said unto him I adjure you thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said Ye man of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory


I don't see any "argument" to say they are not all speaking of the same event - 70AD.

Why would Acts 1:10,11 not just be a repetition of what the disciples had already heard in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem?


Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The above parallel sayings point to the events in revelation as belonging to the same time frame, the 1st century AD.

So the 6th seal is the dest of Jeru? I agree.

What are the 7 trumpets that follow?

How's that "man of sin" thing coming?