Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Ahwatukee]

However many people he was speaking to the fact remains that he was quoting from Daniel and the passage when read correctly shows that the Son of Man was going into the presence of God not coming back to earth

Tanakh, just because a specific detail is not mentioned, does not mean that it does not take place. For example, Matt.24:30-31 which is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, mentions the Lord coming with the angels and arriving on the clouds of heaven. Where Rev.19:11-21 mentions the Lord riding on a white horse with his army--the church--following him out of heaven also riding on white horses. Matt.24:30-31 mentions nothing about the beast and the false prophet being captured and thrown into the lake of fire, where the Revelation account does. Matt.24:30-31 mentions nothing about birds eating the flesh of those whom the Lord kills with that double-edged sword, where Revelation does.

This is why we have all of these scriptures because they provide different details of the same events. This goes the same for the gospels, which confirm what others wrote and also revels other details. As another example, you will find Jesus' first miracle in Cana in the gospel of John, but is not mentioned in any of the other gospels. Yet, because this event is not mentioned in any of the others, it does not mean that it did not take place. Likewise, just because Daniel mentions the Son of Man being led into the presence of God the Father, does not mean that Jesus does not gather his church prior to that event.

 

[iamsoandso]

Acts 3:21 ,"until"

 

[Locutus]

Acts 3:21 ,"until"

Not gonna help:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:19 is explained in Hebrews:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

His appearing to blot out sins and the restitution of "all things" were said to be:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

A "little while and "will not tarry" can't be stretched 1900 years past the 1st century.

 

[iamsoandso]

yep,yep that's what it seems everyone is discussing, just how on earth can the millennial begin in ad70 and this be 2017,yep just how does it stretch for over 1900 years.

 

[Locutus]

yep,yep that's what it seems everyone is discussing, just how on earth can the millennial begin in ad70 and this be 2017,yep just how does it stretch for over 1900 years.

The great tribulation was the 66-70 AD - the millennium was from Pentecost till the end of the war - there was no rapture as future "theologies" claim - the church came through the GT by escaping from Judea.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

First fruits can only be 1st century Christians from the the 12 tribes, including the gentiles.

 

[JesusRules1]

yep,yep that's what it seems everyone is discussing, just how on earth can the millennial begin in ad70 and this be 2017,yep just how does it stretch for over 1900 years.

The millennial reign of Christ is a physical reign on earth,in which Jesus and the saints in glorified bodies,rule over some of the heathen that God put down when He fought the world,the battle of Armageddon.

Jesus has been reigning ever since He ascended to heaven,which is more than a thousand years,and also if He were ruling there would be peace on earth,so the millennial reign is a future event.

1.God will gather all nations together against Jerusalem,which the whole earth shall be gathered together against Israel,and anybody that burdens themselves with Jerusalem shall be cut in pieces.

2.The LORD will come with His saint and fight the world,and put them down,and the plague upon them shall be their flesh shall melt off their bones from the glory of the LORD.

3.The LORD shall be king over all the earth,and in that day there shall be one LORD,and His name one,which people will only recognize Jesus,and the God of Israel.

4.The people that God spared of the nations have to go up year after year to worship the LORD at Jerusalem,and keep the feast of tabernacles.

5.There will be peace for 1000 years,people will not war with people,and animals and people will not fear each other,and animals will no fight with each other,and not eat meat.

 

[iamsoandso]

Yea man that’s the crazy part of it in that you in 2017 believe it was back then and the bishops of the second century Church didn’t seem to grasp it and spoke of it as though it had not taken place. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[Locutus]

Ol' Irene is not the final authority on scripture, he claimed Jesus lived into his 50's..

 

[Locutus]

Yer better off reading Locutus: Against Idiocies...

 

[iamsoandso]

Yer better off reading Locutus: Against Idiocies...

lets see if you read the link is Irenaeus pre-trib. or post-trib.?

 

[iamsoandso]

Just from curiosity I wonder how everyone sees something, If the outer court is left out of the measurement of the temple because it's given to the gentiles to trod under foot for 42 months did the trodding begin in ad70 or end? think about it didn’t the gentiles begin trodding it under foot in ad70 or did they trod it under foot before ad70,where to begin the 42 months?

 

[Locutus]

lets see if you read the link is Irenaeus pre-trib. or post-trib.?

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Could be either, he's not clear in my mind. If I read the church as entering the "last contest" that would be post.., but then he says "the church shall be suddenly caught up from this."

Either the translation of his writing is poor or he ain't got a clue. I figure the last...

 

[Locutus]

Just from curiosity I wonder how everyone sees something, If the outer court is left out of the measurement of the temple because it's given to the gentiles to trod under foot for 42 months did the trodding begin in ad70 or end? think about it didn’t the gentiles begin trodding it under foot in ad70 or did they trod it under foot before ad70,where to begin the 42 months?

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I read it as the last part of the war.

 

[iamsoandso]

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Could be either, he's not clear in my mind. If I read the church as entering the "last contest" that would be post.., but then he says "the church shall be suddenly caught up from this."

Either the translation of his writing is poor or he ain't got a clue. I figure the last...

That's the thing about it in that we all think the second and third century church didn't have a clue but I suppose it's all based on the fact that today is 2017 and the things they say don’t line up with the things we all think about theology. Irenaeus seems to be a post trib so since he's not pre-trib he must be wrong. Or Irenaeus speaks about the great tribulation didn’t just happen in ad66-70 and thinks it's all future.

The strange part of it is that Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp and Polycarp was taught by the apostle John. So John taught Polycarp and made him bishop in Smyrna and Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp which means Irenaeus didn’t have a clue because Polycarp didn’t have a clue because John didn’t have a clue? Or is it that John thought Polycarp had a clue and left him in charge and Polycarp thought Irenaeus had a clue and left him in charge and we are the ones who don’t have a clue?

 

[iamsoandso]

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I read it as the last part of the war.

And see that's what made me ask is because I thought some would see it that way but the decree when it went forth to restore Jerusalem(the city) was not standing and it wasn’t tread under foot by the gentiles until after the revolt in ad70 was over because until that very last day in ad70 there was an armed resistance referred to as the "Jewish revolt" holding them out from treading it under foot.

 

[Locutus]

And see that's what made me ask is because I thought some would see it that way but the decree when it went forth to restore Jerusalem(the city) was not standing and it wasn’t tread under foot by the gentiles until after the revolt in ad70 was over because until that very last day in ad70 there was an armed resistance referred to as the "Jewish revolt" holding them out from treading it under foot.

You are conflating here with what looks like something from Daniel.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There is no "gap" in the 70 weeks as some "theologies" propose. The 70 weeks ended by 70 AD or thereabouts.


John says it was the holy city they were to trample.

(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[iamsoandso]

You are conflating here with what looks like something from Daniel.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There is no "gap" in the 70 weeks as some "theologies" propose. The 70 weeks ended by 70 AD or thereabouts.


John says it was the holy city they were to trample.

(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Well unless all of the theologians mathematics are incorrect as to the ending point of the 70 weeks but if that was so then the apostles would have said the same things that Jeremiah had about building houses and accept the fact that they are appointed over them for an allocated amount of time.

Now if that were so then Romans 13:1,Ephesians 6:5,1 Timothy 6:2, Hebrews 13:17, 2Peter 2 would be telling us(the Christians) that we are to obey the authorities over us as if we were still living in the days awaiting the seventh head to come and the eight and the little horn and so the ten before it ect. If though Rome the forth beast is in that day in the midst of the time it is given,but not in the end of the days it is given then if we were/are still under the authority of the forth beast then it is proper that we obey the authority over us as if by God .

Again if the Jews in ad66-70 not recognizing the time of their visitation and assuming it was the end of the weeks and that they would cast off the authority of the fourth beast before it had fulfilled it's days,then if there remained days that were given to the fourth beast to rule over them they were fighting against God.

If there was still days/time given to the fourth beast that had not yet come to pass then it(the fourth beast) was in the middle of fulfilling the things written of it. So Revelation 17, 5 were(past tense),one is(present tense) and then the 7th(future tense) and the he says that the ten horns/kings have received no kingdom (as yet). So all of the scriptures state something inconsistent with most modern theology in that it speaks of these things as if the Lord came in the midst of the days appointed to this forth beast and not the end.

Now if the forth beast is still in the midst of the time given authority to rule and the 7th head had not yet come,nor the eighth,little horn,ten horns ect. then the two horned beast had not yet come either(at that time). And so if the two horned beast had not yet come then the image had not been set up so if the apostles said to the Christians to render tithes to Rome, Romans 13:6-7, or to see it as ordained of God,Romans 13:1, then if they did believe and obey then they did not recieve the mark of the beast because the forth beast had not yet divided into the ten.

At the same time if the Jews in the siege minted their own coins and revolted against the authority of Rome and it was still in the midst of it's days over Daniels people then if Rome had not fulfilled all of the time it was given over Daniels people and the image had not yet been set up then they(the Jews in the siege) did not have the mark of the beast either. If the mark of the beast is Rome’s money the Jews minted their own. If to bow down to Rome or it's image is to bow down and worship Caesar the Jews refused to do so and revolted.


So the apostles tell us to obey the authority over us as "ordained by God"(Romans 13:1) ,then in Revelation 17 the angel explains the mystery of the harlot and the beast and points out that they were in Johns days midstream in the days and not at the end("one is" and the others were going to come) so if the 7th,eighth, the ten horns ect. rose and the image was set up before ad70 why did none of the second century church not recognize it,especially the apostle John who was alive after ad70.

 

[Locutus]

That's one helluva stir fry you got cooking there soandso....

 

[iamsoandso]

That's one helluva stir fry you got cooking there soandso....

Acts 1:6,Luke 21:24,Ephesians 1:10,Romans 11:25, all speak as though the times of the gentiles were not yet fulfilled.

 

[Locutus]

Acts 1:6,Luke 21:24,Ephesians 1:10,Romans 11:25, all speak as though the times of the gentiles were not yet fulfilled.

How could they have been - they were written before the 66-70 AD war.

This is an often misunderstood and abused couple of passages:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is tied to Paul's specific ministry given by Christ:

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

"the fullness" is not a numerical value - it is related to the completion of Paul's ministry.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The preaching to every creature were precisely the conditions Jesus gave for the end to come and Paul was the major player in that.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul when in Rome stated he had "finished" his course, the mission to the Gentiles was just about complete:

2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

This applied to the same time frame as written in Hebrews:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is the turning away of sin from Jacob - and when does Hebrews state this would happen:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Not long after Paul's "departure" all "hell" broke loose in the 66-70 AD war.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are written may be fulfilled.

The turning away of sin from Jacob and the return of the deliverer out of Sion were all part of the ALL that was written to be fulfilled in the compassing of Jerusalem in the 66-70 AD war.