Sinners?

[Grace777x70]

Malice, deceit, causing strife and the slandering of others in the body of Christ are just as vile and destructive as living the homosexual lifestyle. They are in the same lists together.

It's just that us "religious good Christians" like to categorize sin. We are especially against those sins that we don't do and we love to look down and condemn those that are still learning to walk by the spirit so that the lusts of the flesh aren't done.

This is of course another sin called hypocrisy.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

 

[stonesoffire]

I thought surely there has been a misunderstanding about Luther, so I googled what you posted, willybob.

I pulled up an article by Walid Shoebat, someone I trust and found out even more blasphemies of the scriptures that Luther believed.


Plus, he was an anti-Semite. Shoebat questions why theologians believe Luther. Now I do too.

 

[willybob]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells. All of this is from God and not ourselves and we receive Christ's righteousness by grace through faith.

There is only one kind of righteousness - Christ's - which He has given to us who believe.

Faith (“ie” faithfulness to God) IS a WORK. The 2 can’t be separated. Abraham DID THE WORKS OF FAITH and it was accounted/imputed/reckoned to him as righteousness. The first ACT of faith is obedience to the truth form the heart having no guile.. God searches the heart to see if any guile is left therein that hasn’t been purged out in repentance..

faith is manifest not positional..

 

[stonesoffire]

The grace of God is so great when understood we don't want to sin against God.

The problem then is not what we do but we are...if we think according to the world, or our human nature, we are carnal.

Spiritual thinking according to what is in heaven...we bring to earth. This won't lead us astray.

 

[stonesoffire]

Salvation is both positional and manifested in our life. By grace through faith.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Faith (“ie” faithfulness to God) IS a WORK. The 2 can’t be separated. Abraham DID THE WORKS OF FAITH and it was accounted/imputed/reckoned to him as righteousness. The first ACT of faith is obedience to the truth form the heart having no guile.. God searches the heart to see if any guile is left therein that hasn’t been purged out in repentance..

faith is manifest not positional..

Ummmmm, no.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9

 

[Grace777x70]

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work". Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

 

[willybob]

righteousness is manifest in the heart of the believer by yielding to the empowerment of the Spirit (receiving grace) through the conduit of faith….the virtue of righteousness is NEVER transferred anywhere in the text…Its something that you do being under the influence of grace…

 

[Grace777x70]

True Christians are the righteousness of God in Christ because of what Christ has done - not what we do. That's called works-righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

There are deeds of righteousness which stem from His life being manifested in and through us as He bears His fruit but it all comes from being the righteousness of God in Christ from Christ's work on the cross alone.

 

[willybob]

Ummmmm, no.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9

For those who have ears to hear "ie" hearken

Philippians 2-12,13

It’s the influencing power of grace combined with man’s faith, for we are workers together with God.

The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.

2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)

13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”

These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power (“energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to live godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...

The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, and not that He did everything/obeyed for you.

 

[PeterJens]

What changed, why did it change?

Firstly when I realised that I was secure in God, accepted by God and was his precious child this allowed me to ask him to open my straight jacket.

He walked with me (and it was hard and painful) and turned hate and unforgiving Spirit into forgiveness. He healed my psychological issues which helped my spiritual state but that could only happen after he revealed my spiritual state in him.

I have loved you with an everlasting love, never will I leave you or forsake you, I will work good in your circumstances, I have removed your sins as far as the East is from the West, I do not condem you, come as you are.

Oh and the clincher was when Jesus said "Father may your son Bill (me) know that you love him as much as you love me"

Your brother in Christ

Bill

Amen. Faith can be an intellectual assent but the true emotional framework within
is forcing us down a different road.

This is where the truth of who we are meets the love God brings.
It is why the cross changed me forever. Halleluyah. God was not joking.

He is our eternal Father and He really does care with everything He can put
on the table.

 

[FreeNChrist]

For those who have ears to hear "ie" hearken

Philippians 2-12,13

It’s the influencing power of grace combined with man’s faith, for we are workers together with God.

The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.

2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)

13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”

These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power (“energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to live godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...

The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, and not that He did everything/obeyed for you.

And faith is still not a work. So......

 

[PeterJens]

I do not understand. If a man walks righteously in love, given Him by Christ, are you
going to test his theology and try and find out if he is the right type of christian, or praise
God for the fruit of His word in a believers life.

How many loving, giving, caring people do you know?
Do you want more or less?

Are you interested in saving sinners from Hell, or just condemning people who believe
but not quite in the same way you do?

If you knew the hell people live through inside and the suicides many attempt to get
away, you would care less about doctrinal niceties and more about saving those in
desperate need, and starting to bring healing to eternity to fractured lives.

Jesus is offering real communion and heal through the cross, a meeting and fellowship
that will last into eternity, and a family that will never fail or cease. This is worth more
than gold, more than anything this world can offer.

I get the feeling many who call themselves believers have not experienced this or know
what the words mean. And we will always be their enemies, and sinners stay lost in
their loneliness and pain, wondering why nothing really changed.

 

[dcontroversal]

righteousness is manifest in the heart of the believer by yielding to the empowerment of the Spirit (receiving grace) through the conduit of faith….the virtue of righteousness is NEVER transferred anywhere in the text…Its something that you do being under the influence of grace…

Your working for false theology misses much......


Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[zone]

I do not understand. If a man walks righteously in love, given Him by Christ, are you
going to test his theology and try and find out if he is the right type of christian, or praise
God for the fruit of His word in a believers life.

How many loving, giving, caring people do you know?
Do you want more or less?

Are you interested in saving sinners from Hell, or just condemning people who believe
but not quite in the same way you do?

If you knew the hell people live through inside and the suicides many attempt to get
away, you would care less about doctrinal niceties and more about saving those in
desperate need, and starting to bring healing to eternity to fractured lives.

Jesus is offering real communion and heal through the cross, a meeting and fellowship
that will last into eternity, and a family that will never fail or cease. This is worth more
than gold, more than anything this world can offer.

I get the feeling many who call themselves believers have not experienced this or know
what the words mean. And we will always be their enemies, and sinners stay lost in
their loneliness and pain, wondering why nothing really changed.

and your words have no ability to heal or save.
it's too bad that nearly all your posts end with snarky condemnations.
i'll say again, you could be a pretty effective preacher if you just learn the gospel, peter.

 

[willybob]

And faith is still not a work. So......

Abraham DID the WORKS OF FAITH said the apostles James & Paul and it was accounted to him as righteousness...Faith and works CANNOT be seperated lest it be a dead faith saieth James...Those that argue continualy in favour of sin surly do ware out the saints. The first work of faith is obedeince to the truth... as long as guile still remains in the heart faith CANNOT work and receive the empowerment of grace..

 

[PeterJens]

and your words have no ability to heal or save.
it's too bad that nearly all your posts end with snarky condemnations.
i'll say again, you could be a pretty effective preacher if you just learn the gospel, peter.

zone - now let us get real. I know too many people who need to be shaken up.
We are not in the crowd pleasing game, and following Jesus is not about being
nice but about being disciplined and testing where we really are.

I know 100% the heart deceives many. It does not mean they are lost, just
need to go deeper. Jesus said to Peter, you will deny me 3 times.
That was hard, to be measured and understood and then taken.

Nothing with the Lord is easy, and we always need the best help we can
get. So I am not trying to get revenge, I am being honest.

Pain within hurts, and you will react saying back off.
But I am saying, friends, let the Lord in to heal you, restore you, build
you up. Stop being defensive and reach out in faith, and admit the need.

This is where faith makes a difference, when we admit we are vulnerable,
when we shake in fear, when something says, close down, but Jesus says,
believe and reach out. The time for healing is here with Christ. Reach out
and let Him minister to you.

 

[willybob]

why do so many despise doing what is righteous? I saw this same self-righteous attitude on another thread, and it seem to despise some that Daniel and Job were actually called righteous by God because of what they did...In Jeremiahs day they all hated him and his righteousness. They said dont tell us we have to obey God, but rather send to us false prophets that tell us fables that sooth over our conscience, but please dont tell us the truth............................so long for today, perhaps another day...Contending with those who arguing in favour of unrighteousness vexes my spirit and wares me out...

 

[NotmebutHim]

Wow, some lively discussion going on................

 

[FreeNChrist]

Abraham DID the WORKS OF FAITH said the apostles James & Paul and it was accounted to him as righteousness...Faith and works CANNOT be seperated lest it be a dead faith saieth James...Those that argue continualy in favour of sin surly do ware out the saints. The first work of faith is obedeince to the truth... as long as guile still remains in the heart faith CANNOT work and receive the empowerment of grace..

Still no.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9