REVELATION

[tanakh]

Question: Why would Jesus tell Peter, James, John, and Andrew, that He would return AFTER the great tribulation to gather the chosen? Why is the word chosen used throughout the NT to describe the church both Jew and gentile? Why did Jesus tell the apostles to teach to the church everything that he had taught them(that would include His return). What return of Christ to gather the believers did the church believe in BEFORE Paul was converted and wrote the Thess letters(there was only the return described by Jesus). None of these questions can be answered by the pre-trib crowd because to answer them would be to prove pre-trib to be false.

Debating with a Pre -Tribber is like trying to hold down a live Eel. Or discussing doctrine with a JW, which is not suprising because John Nelson Darby the main originator of the teaching led his own cult known as the Exclusive Brethren after the Main Plymouth Brethren movement rejected his dispensation theology.

 

[PrynceNY]

Some people are so eager to go through the tribulation... If the Lord does come for the church before it begins im sure he will let you stay if you want to that badly.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Some people are so eager to go through the tribulation... If the Lord does come for the church before it begins im sure he will let you stay if you want to that badly.

I have said the same thing myself. Let it be according to their faith. The difference between those of a pre-trib gathering of the church who are looking for the imminent blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to remove us prior to his wrath being poured out, are in opposition, to those who believe that the Lord is going to gather the church after his wrath. They are looking for God's wrath to take place before he can gather them. Not much of a blessed hope, nor would it be anything to comfort one another about. For the church to go through God's wrath would also be a dishonor to Christ, because He already experienced God's wrath for all believers.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Debating with a Pre -Tribber is like trying to hold down a live Eel. Or discussing doctrine with a JW, which is not suprising because John Nelson Darby the main originator of the teaching led his own cult known as the Exclusive Brethren after the Main Plymouth Brethren movement rejected his dispensation theology.

That is because we know what we are talking about tanakh. We are simply contending for the truth in the midst of a myriad of false teachings regarding this subject. We chose to believe--according to scripture--that God is going to remove believers prior to his wrath being poured out, opposed to being gathered after his wrath.

The key here is understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath and who the scriptures proclaim that his wrath is going to be direct at. His wrath is certainly not going to be directed towards those who have already repented and have believed in His Son. That would make no sense. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will affect the entire earth, the church will be removed, just as scripture states for all who overcome:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

The coming wrath of God, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowls, are going to decimate the majority of the population of the earth and will dismantle all human government. The church will be removed prior to that 1st seal being opened, which initiates that time of wrath.

 

[PrynceNY]

I have said the same thing myself. Let it be according to their faith. The difference between those of a pre-trib gathering of the church who are looking for the imminent blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to remove us prior to his wrath being poured out, are in opposition, to those who believe that the Lord is going to gather the church after his wrath. They are looking for God's wrath to take place before he can gather them. Not much of a blessed hope, nor would it be anything to comfort one another about. For the church to go through God's wrath would also be a dishonor to Christ, because He already experienced God's wrath for all believers.

Yea, I bet you those same people who regularly argue about how the pre-trib is false would the same ones complaining about seeing the lord gather people & how they were left behind. According to them the church is suppose to go through the most horrific time on earth then go to the wedding feast of the lamb. Which is the equivalent of a husband beating his wife before they get married... Makes no sense to me but if that's what they want to believe that's their choice.

 

[tanakh]

That is because we know what we are talking about tanakh. We are simply contending for the truth in the midst of a myriad of false teachings regarding this subject. We chose to believe--according to scripture--that God is going to remove believers prior to his wrath being poured out, opposed to being gathered after his wrath.

The key here is understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath and who the scriptures proclaim that his wrath is going to be direct at. His wrath is certainly not going to be directed towards those who have already repented and have believed in His Son. That would make no sense. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will affect the entire earth, the church will be removed, just as scripture states for all who overcome:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

The coming wrath of God, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowls, are going to decimate the majority of the population of the earth and will dismantle all human government. The church will be removed prior to that 1st seal being opened, which initiates that time of wrath.

So what your saying is that Christ allowed his Church to be mislead for the past 2000 plus years and that it was only from around 1830 onwards that people heard that he was returning twice. Even Martin Luther and the other Reformers were kept in the dark. Paul wrote and talked about the resurrection of the dead and the living being transformed to the Churches of Thessalonica and Corinth. It seems he never explained to them about there being another two comings. Either that or they forgot to pass the information on to anyone else and we had to wait until John Darby turned up before anyone else heard about it.

 

[tanakh]

Ahwatukee

Just adding something to my reply. Where does it say that being rescued from the coming wrath requires being Raptured before it happens. God can protect anyone from it without a pre wrath Rapture. In this end time scene how come the Jews and the so called tribulation saints go through it all and not the Church. If those countless numbers of people who appear in Revelation seven come out of the great tribulation who led them to Christ when the Church/Bride left before the Great Trib started? If your answer is the 144000 who led them?, bearing in mind that the Holy Spirit we are told left with the Church at the rapture

 

[Adstar]

Ahwatukee

Just adding something to my reply. Where does it say that being rescued from the coming wrath requires being Raptured before it happens. God can protect anyone from it without a pre wrath Rapture. In this end time scene how come the Jews and the so called tribulation saints go through it all and not the Church. If those countless numbers of people who appear in Revelation seven come out of the tribulation who led them to Christ when the Church/Bride left before the Trib started? If your answer is the 144000 who led them, bearing in mind that the Holy Spirit we are told left with the Church at the rapture

Just some scripture to support the nin pre-tribulation rapture stance..

Psalms 91: KJV
1 "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. {2} I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

I want to continue Chapter 5 with the song the 24 elders sing and its significance, but here are a few questions to consider********* 1. Who are the 24 elders...? 2. Why are there 24 of them...? 3. What us the significance of the New Song...?

Here is a great video on the 24 elders that goes over them in a manner that I am pretty confident you haven't heard before. One thing to take note of in the video is the 12 tribes on earth. The 24 elders are a referrence of governmenatl positions in the ages to come. There will be 12 thrones in heaven where the body of Christ will be seated. 12 thrones on earth where the Jesus's disciples will sit. 12 in heaven. 12 on earth. = 24 thrones. 24 elders.

Col 1.16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 4.10-11
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Deut 32.7-8
Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Each tribe elder will have their own corresponding area divided by God. Just like currently Satan posses the kingdoms. Prince of Persia, Prince of Grecia etc...Michael, the arch angel didn't rebel corresponds to Israel.

Dan 10.20
Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


[video=youtube;E2GbrZ9ThpA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2GbrZ9ThpA[/video]

Also note, as he states in the video, this is what he has gathered through studying the world rightly divided and isn't dogmatic about the issue. But, if anything, I think he is a lot closer to being correct than any other person I have ever heard. And I have heard it all.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

So what your saying is that Christ allowed his Church to be mislead for the past 2000 plus years and that it was only from around 1830 onwards that people heard that he was returning twice. Even Martin Luther and the other Reformers were kept in the dark. Paul wrote and talked about the resurrection of the dead and the living being transformed to the Churches of Thessalonica and Corinth. It seems he never explained to them about there being another two comings. Either that or they forgot to pass the information on to anyone else and we had to wait until John Darby turned up before anyone else heard about it.

No one was mislead for 2000 years. Paul was teaching the mystery of the rapture in his day and it's in the scriptures. And there's great evidence in historical writings that people understood the pretrib rapture as early as 120 AD!

 

[garee]

Some people are so eager to go through the tribulation... If the Lord does come for the church before it begins im sure he will let you stay if you want to that badly.

The tribulation is here it began when the veil was rent marking the beginning of the last days we are in.

The time of refomation has come.

The question becomes to what time period was it restored to as the new restored form of government. No more high priests or Kings like the pagan religions.

I would think the period of Judges.

 

[garee]

That is because we know what we are talking about tanakh. We are simply contending for the truth in the midst of a myriad of false teachings regarding this subject. We chose to believe--according to scripture--that God is going to remove believers prior to his wrath being poured out, opposed to being gathered after his wrath.

The final pouring out of His wrath will be on judgement day, the last day the same day (the final resurrection)In the twinkling of an eye both the saints that are asleep and therefore not part of this realm under the sun and the saints that are still here reigning with Christ in Spirit will both receive thier new bodies in the new heavens and earth .We are in the last days.

The thousand years in Revelation 20 represent this time period we are in . Thousand as a metphor used in parables represents a number no man could could in respect to whatever is in view .

Six times in the book of John the Holy Spirit informs us the last resurrection and judgment day will both occur in the twinkling of the eye on the last day . The end will come just as it was in h the time of Noah. Things will be moving on just as they are today .Then will come sudden destruction of the earth and heavens as we know them from this side of glory. Like a thief in the night.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[samuel23]

Hi 88: it can be proven in a few minutes to the one who is actually seeking the truth that there is no such thing in the NT as a pre tribulation gathering of the church, just a post tribulation gathering of the church. Think, the very first church(before Paul) HAD to be post tribulation because that was the ONLY GATHERING OF THE CHURCH that they knew of. The first church before Paul existed for years with thousands of members all waiting for Christ to return and gather them AFTER the tribulation because that is what Jesus taught them through the apostles. If you once grasp this reality, the very first church before Paul was a post tribulation gathering church because that was the only return of Christ and gathering that they knew of, then the truth will dawn on you...Paul, who wrote of the return of Christ, had to have written of a post tribulation gathering because he joined a post tribulation believing church. That is why Paul described the return of Christ in the same way Jesus described His return.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi 88: it can be proven in a few minutes to the one who is actually seeking the truth that there is no such thing in the NT as a pre tribulation gathering of the church, just a post tribulation gathering of the church. Think, the very first church(before Paul) HAD to be post tribulation because that was the ONLY GATHERING OF THE CHURCH that they knew of. The first church before Paul existed for years with thousands of members all waiting for Christ to return and gather them AFTER the tribulation because that is what Jesus taught them through the apostles. If you once grasp this reality, the very first church before Paul was a post tribulation gathering church because that was the only return of Christ and gathering that they knew of, then the truth will dawn on you...Paul, who wrote of the return of Christ, had to have written of a post tribulation gathering because he joined a post tribulation believing church. That is why Paul described the return of Christ in the same way Jesus described His return.

It is truly sad that we have those who believe that the Lord is going to put the body of Christ, his bride, who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ, that God is going to first put them through his wrath before gathering them.

Furthermore, that they don't have enough knowledge of scripture to see that the event of the gathering of the church as being a completely separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. In addition, that they don't recognize the underlying principle in that, Christ already experienced the wrath of God on behalf of all believers and thereby satisfying it.

Those who don't believe in the promise to remove the church prior to God's wrath, let the outcome be according to your faith or lack thereof. As for those of us who understand the promise and what the Lord has done for us, we long for and watch for the Lord's imminent appearing to resurrect the dead and transform the living into those immortal and glorified bodies prior to the day of the Lord, the time of his unprecedented wrath.

Those who continue to reject the promise--that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath--remember all of these conversations here on CC when you find yourselves watching the news reporting the millions of world-wide disappearances, followed by that political leader establishisg his seven year agreement with Israel. At that time you will know that you have received what you believed, which is to go through God's wrath instead of trusting in him to deliver you out of it.

 

[garee]

It is truly sad that we have those who believe that the Lord is going to put the body of Christ, his bride, who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ, that God is going to first put them through his wrath before gathering them.

The wrath is being revealed, it marked Cain as a restless wanderer (no rest in Christ our husband)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God "revealed from faith to faith: as it is written", The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

The wrath of God in respect to men that live in a body of death. It began in the garden and has increased in these last days (the days... following the time of reformation) the time of Jacobs trouble .God is no longer using the flesh of a Jew in ceremonial laws.This sent the apostate Jews into confusion seeing they thought his flesh would profit for something. .

The bride of Christ the church is made off many lively stones that makes up the one spiritual house of God . She is typified as his chaste virgin bride in respect to a number that no man knows in respect to the metaphor thousand. (144,000 chaste virgins who have not fornicated with other gods. ) in that parable found in Revelation.

She is shown in a vision used as a parable in Revelation 12 as his wife, clothed with the righteous of Christ , travailing as in birth, and pained to be delivered..

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.. Rev 12:1

No literal thousand years. The bride as the mother of us all is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15 . Christ, crushes the head of the father of lies to protect her.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.Gen 3:15

 

[88]

So what your saying is that Christ allowed his Church to be mislead for the past 2000 plus years and that it was only from around 1830 onwards that people heard that he was returning twice. Even Martin Luther and the other Reformers were kept in the dark. Paul wrote and talked about the resurrection of the dead and the living being transformed to the Churches of Thessalonica and Corinth. It seems he never explained to them about there being another two comings. Either that or they forgot to pass the information on to anyone else and we had to wait until John Darby turned up before anyone else heard about it.

**** many early Church Fathers taught the Rapture--- being removed before the Tribulation-----Cyprian, Tertullian, and Irenanaeus---- also---- Ephraem the Syrian (306-373 a leading Byzantine theologian) " ...all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation..."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is sad, A possible thread which could have caused some discussion of Gods word. and all it did was turn into another pre-trib attack thread.

People should be ashamed.

to the Op. I am sorry your thread was hijacked..

 

[samuel23]

I have read the ancient writings and they do not say there is a pre-trib rapture and they are not scripture. Let me say this as plain as humanly possible, there is no pre-trib rapture in the bible and never has been, in order to use the bible to promote a pre-trib rapture that is not in the bible one MUST RESORT TO BEING DISHONEST. It is the same as trying to prove the earth is flat, one must resort to dishonesty because there is no real evidence. Pre-trib is an end time deception designed to blow people away when Christ does not return pre-trib and they find them selves in the tribulation. Here is a pre-trib lie, the tribulation Jesus described is the wrath of God, not so it is the wrath of satan against the church.

 

[88]

I have read the ancient writings and they do not say there is a pre-trib rapture and they are not scripture. Let me say this as plain as humanly possible, there is no pre-trib rapture in the bible and never has been, in order to use the bible to promote a pre-trib rapture that is not in the bible one MUST RESORT TO BEING DISHONEST. It is the same as trying to prove the earth is flat, one must resort to dishonesty because there is no real evidence. Pre-trib is an end time deception designed to blow people away when Christ does not return pre-trib and they find them selves in the tribulation. Here is a pre-trib lie, the tribulation Jesus described is the wrath of God, not so it is the wrath of satan against the church.

*** the Church is not in the Tribulation ( after chapter 4)**** the 24 elders represent the Church and are there before the Tribulation ----their is no purpose for the Church to be on Earth--- she will finish her job--- bringing in the harvest---- everything changes at the Rapture--- angels are preaching---- 144,000 Jewish evangelist proclaim the Gospel--- 2 Witnesses are bringing Judgment--- this period has nothing to do with Grace and the Church...

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

...and this thread stands as a shining example of why I don't even bother trying to learn about this stuff. You folks, who call yourselves believers, can't agree on what you believe, and while you make the case for your own side of the argument, you also resort to childish techniques of mocking the other side's argument. The way it reads, none of you who have participated in this latest debate thread (and there will be another one in a week that will be a dumpster fire as well...there always is), you are NOT interested in sharing your views or in educating people, but you ARE interested in being right. That's it. You want to be right. You want to be right and everyone else to be wrong. It's purely an ego-driven endeavor, and it's unfortunate that you spell god as S-E-L-F.