REVELATION

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...and this thread stands as a shining example of why I don't even bother trying to learn about this stuff. You folks, who call yourselves believers, can't agree on what you believe, and while you make the case for your own side of the argument, you also resort to childish techniques of mocking the other side's argument. The way it reads, none of you who have participated in this latest debate thread (and there will be another one in a week that will be a dumpster fire as well...there always is), you are NOT interested in sharing your views or in educating people, but you ARE interested in being right. That's it. You want to be right. You want to be right and everyone else to be wrong. It's purely an ego-driven endeavor, and it's unfortunate that you spell god as S-E-L-F.
****you are correct---if we debate this subject in an un-Christlike way it is dung---but bringing forth a Scriptural position can be of a great benefit to those who are hungry for the truth---it is a shame there is so much confusion at time on the threads---many will be forced to do their own study and find the truth----I am not against those who hold other views than Pre-Trib.----some are wonderful teachers in the Body of Christ---believing in Pre-Trib., Mid-Trib., or Post Trib. ect. does not make you unorthodox (heretical)----the only reason I post my personal Pre-Trib. views is because after 40 years of studying the end times this seems to be the best supported position in the Word---if you disagree that is o.k., that is why I tell people to be Sweet----hopefully all viewing this thread will get something Wonderful out of it and not be discouraged by the disagreements...
 
****you are correct---if we debate this subject in an un-Christlike way it is dung---but bringing forth a Scriptural position can be of a great benefit to those who are hungry for the truth---it is a shame there is so much confusion at time on the threads---many will be forced to do their own study and find the truth----I am not against those who hold other views than Pre-Trib.----some are wonderful teachers in the Body of Christ---believing in Pre-Trib., Mid-Trib., or Post Trib. ect. does not make you unorthodox (heretical)----the only reason I post my personal Pre-Trib. views is because after 40 years of studying the end times this seems to be the best supported position in the Word---if you disagree that is o.k., that is why I tell people to be Sweet----hopefully all viewing this thread will get something Wonderful out of it and not be discouraged by the disagreements...

I hope you realize that you completely invalidated everything you said in your reply to me by slipping in a "pre-trib is the right view to hold" comment. You helped to make my previous point for me, so thank you for that.
 
I have said the same thing myself. Let it be according to their faith. The difference between those of a pre-trib gathering of the church who are looking for the imminent blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to remove us prior to his wrath being poured out, are in opposition, to those who believe that the Lord is going to gather the church after his wrath. They are looking for God's wrath to take place before he can gather them. Not much of a blessed hope, nor would it be anything to comfort one another about. For the church to go through God's wrath would also be a dishonor to Christ, because He already experienced God's wrath for all believers.

My hope is in the second and only coming of Christ. Another hope I have is that Pre Tribbers will not fall away when they find themselves caught up in the tribulation and realise that everything they believed about it is a Satanic delusion.
 
My hope is in the second and only coming of Christ. Another hope I have is that Pre Tribbers will not fall away when they find themselves caught up in the tribulation and realise that everything they believed about it is a Satanic delusion.
****don't think that will happen---but if the Pre-Trib. people are wrong we should be praying they will be Prepared----many of the Lord's Parables were about being Prepared----being faithful, and having extra oil ect.----a person can be prepared to go into the Tribulation if they are already Prepared for the Rapture---there will be enough persecution before the Rapture takes place when the Church starts to reap the Harvest---this will prepare the Church for the Rapture or the Tribulation---if people teach the Rapture the wrong way---just as a good time waiting around for Jesus and not seeking Him this will be a problem...
 
I hope you realize that you completely invalidated everything you said in your reply to me by slipping in a "pre-trib is the right view to hold" comment. You helped to make my previous point for me, so thank you for that.
****holding a orthodox view of Scripture and defending it in a Christlike way is a sign of maturity in my book---if you see this as negative it was not intended to be contentious...
 
When you have apposing views on a particular subject it seems like a good idea to keep this in mind. Either one side is wrong and the other side is right or else both sides are wrong. Try not to get caught up in the personalities, often times the articulate arrogant acting person is totally wrong...they are just good at making it look like they should be right.
 
My hope is in the second and only coming of Christ. Another hope I have is that Pre Tribbers will not fall away when they find themselves caught up in the tribulation and realise that everything they believed about it is a Satanic delusion.

Good evening Tanakh,

The coming wrath of God, is for those who will have rejected Jesus Christ, for haughty and proud, the sexually immoral, all those who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. Anyone who is here in between the time that the church is gathered and the time when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, is because they continued to reject Christ. It is not an honorable thing to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Suffering for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God is honorable. But those suffering the wrath of God during that time will because they deserve it.

As far as falling away, my faith and the faith of other true believers, is not based on when the church is gathered. It is based on Christ's payment for my sins. Being one who studies end-time events, I would know immediately if I was in that time period and that because I have studied everything regarding the antichrist. Therefore, I would not be surprised or lead astray, because I would know exactly what is happening and who he is. If that were to happen, I would then pray to God to give me strength to go through what I knew was coming.

Not longing for the appearing of the Lord, the blessed hope, would be the delusion. I truly believe that this is exactly why there is such animosity towards Christ gathering his church prior to his wrath. And Satan, unfortunately, has found an awful lot of foot soldiers to preach the message that we have salvation through faith in Christ, but God is going to first send us through his wrath anyway. The problem is that, you people treat the coming wrath of God as being the same as the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said that all believers would have. But this coming wrath will be like nothing the world has ever seen.

Those who believe that they are going to be gathered after the wrath of God has taken place, are not truly trusting in Christ. If they were, then they would understand that Jesus experienced God's wrath on our behalf and because of that, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. So in reality, you dishonor Christ, because instead of believing his promise to come back and take the Father's house, instead, you look forward to the wrath of God. Jesus said that for those who overcome that he would keep out "out of" the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the face of the earth. But you're not believing that either.

For those with a post-trib view, it is like they have Jesus is saying, I have good news and I have bad news. The good news is, if you believe that I paid the penalty for your sins and that I took upon myself the wrath that you deserve, you will be saved and have eternal life. The bad news is that I have to put you through my wrath first, even though I already suffered it for on your behalf. They don't understand the underlying principle here. It's like the wrath that Jesus suffered didn't matter and that believers still have to suffer it.


No my friend, the delusion is not trusting in the Lord's promise to come back and get us before God's wrath begins. Jesus is not going to put his bride through his wrath and then gather her later for the wedding.
 
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****don't think that will happen---but if the Pre-Trib. people are wrong we should be praying they will be Prepared----many of the Lord's Parables were about being Prepared----being faithful, and having extra oil ect.----a person can be prepared to go into the Tribulation if they are already Prepared for the Rapture---there will be enough persecution before the Rapture takes place when the Church starts to reap the Harvest---this will prepare the Church for the Rapture or the Tribulation---if people teach the Rapture the wrong way---just as a good time waiting around for Jesus and not seeking Him this will be a problem...

I agree about being prepared but one major flaw in the Pre Trib position is that it does lead people to have the attitude that you describe.
 
We are in the tribulation or wrath of God that is being revealed daily from heaven .(Rom 1:18)

It the time of Jacobs trouble began when Christ said it is finished .The veil was rent indicating Christ the Holy Spirit had come in the flesh ...signaling the tribulation we are in . The final tribulation will be on the last day, the same day as the second and final resurrection called the rapture. On that day anyone whose name is not found in the lambs book of life slain from the foundation of the world as His elect will be cast into the lake of fire and never again raise to new spirit life.

The born again elect receive their new spirits that will never die. On the last day Christ will sound the wake up call (the seventh trump) Those who have their new spirits that are asleep and those who have the Spirit of Christ that remain alive reigning with Christ who live in them will both be changed forever more into their promised incorruptible bodies.The former things of this earth will be not remembered . Today if any man hears his voice they enter that rest in Christ.

Six times in the book of John Christ uses the last day of this present corrupted earth and universe as well as judgement day, the final wrath for the unbeliever, which also coincides with the last trump

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

No literal reign with Christ in His flesh for a literal thousand years. He has come in the flesh and will not come again in that way.There simply is no promise he would put on flesh typified as sinful corrupted twice. That would indicate double jeopardy as if one demonstration in flesh that aged to show it was corruptible.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now "henceforth" know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2Co 5:16

Looking for a fleshly Jesus is simply a repeat of the garden of Eve. God remains without a beginingg of days or end of Spirit life. He is not a man as us.

The word Thousand is used as it is usually a metaphor to indicate a unknown as to what ever is in view. Whether it is time, animals, peoples, or mercy. thousand simply indicates "all" that is in view

1Chronicles 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

Psalms 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Allowing approximately for a 40-year generation (2000 divided by 40), we have only reached an additional 50 generations today. We have consequently only approximately exhausted 126 generations roughly 874 short of the precise 1000 generations mark, which the literalists would have us believe.
 
Blessings Clee622,

I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive.

I have noticed that you interpret scripture with scripture, which is the way we should be arriving at our conclusions. That said, and regarding the woman, below is the reason why the woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel:

=====================================
"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
====================================

God used the same symbols in Joseph's dream to identify the woman of Revelation 12.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife or wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel, with Joseph being number twelve

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is representing Israel.

The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation.

Though you are correct in that Satan caused a third of the angels to rebel in their original fall, the reference is to that event that will take place in the middle of the seven years, when that war takes place between Michael and his angels, who fight against Satan and his. Satan and his angels still currently have access to heaven. But when that war takes place, they will be cast out and restricted to the earth, which is the 7th trumpet and the 3rd woe.

"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

That Satan knows that his time is short, is in referring to the fact that when he is cast out in the middle of that seven years, he then knows that there will be only 3 1/2 years before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time he is thrown into and restricted to the Abyss during the thousand years reign of Christ - Rev.20:1-3

The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)

I believe that I can help you understand the meaning of the flood that the dragon/Satan sends out after the woman. Please consider the following scriptures:

Floods, raging waters, torrents, Rivers, as symbolic representing armies:

"If the Lord had not been on our side—let Israel say—if the Lord had not been on our side when people attacked us,
they would have swallowed us alive when their anger flared against us; the flood would have engulfed us, the torrent would have swept over us, the raging waters would have swept us away." - Psalms 124:1-6

"Reach down your hand from on high; deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners whose mouths are full of lies, whose right hands are deceitful." - Psalms 144:7

"His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress." - Dan.11:10

"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. " - Dan.11:40

"Who is this that rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters? Egypt rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters. She says, ‘I will rise and cover the earth; I will destroy cities and their people.’ Charge, you horses! Drive furiously, you charioteers!" - Jeramiah 46:7

"This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza:

This is what the Lord says: “See how the waters are rising in the north; they will become an overflowing torrent. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them. The people will cry out; all who dwell in the land will wail at the sound of the hooves of galloping steeds, at the noise of enemy chariots and the rumble of their wheels. Parents will not turn to help their children; their hands will hang limp." - Jeramiah 47:1-3

Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth." - Rev.12:15-16

As you can see, scripture over and over again, uses attacking armies or attacking people symbolically as torrents, raging waters, floods, etc.


That said, it should now be clear as to what the dragon/Satan is spewing out of his mouth after the woman/Israel.

I hope that this was beneficial to you
 
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Blessings Clee622,



I have noticed that you interpret scripture with scripture, which is the way we should be arriving at our conclusions. That said, and regarding the woman, below is the reason why the woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel:

=====================================
"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
====================================

God used the same symbols in Joseph's dream to identify the woman of Revelation 12.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife or wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel, with Joseph being number twelve

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is representing Israel.



Though you are correct in that Satan caused a third of the angels to rebel in their original fall, the reference is to that event that will take place in the middle of the seven years, when that war takes place between Michael and his angels, who fight against Satan and his. Satan and his angels still currently have access to heaven. But when that war takes place, they will be cast out and restricted to the earth, which is the 7th trumpet and the 3rd woe.

"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

That Satan knows that his time is short, is in referring to the fact that when he is cast out in the middle of that seven years, he then knows that there will be only 3 1/2 years before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time he is thrown into and restricted to the Abyss during the thousand years reign of Christ - Rev.20:1-3



I believe that I can help you understand the meaning of the flood that the dragon/Satan sends out after the woman. Please consider the following scriptures:

Floods, raging waters, torrents, Rivers, as symbolic representing armies:

"If the Lord had not been on our side—let Israel say—if the Lord had not been on our side when people attacked us,
they would have swallowed us alive when their anger flared against us; the flood would have engulfed us, the torrent would have swept over us, the raging waters would have swept us away." - Psalms 124:1-6

"Reach down your hand from on high; deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners whose mouths are full of lies, whose right hands are deceitful." - Psalms 144:7

"His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress." - Dan.11:10

"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. " - Dan.11:40

"Who is this that rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters? Egypt rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters. She says, ‘I will rise and cover the earth; I will destroy cities and their people.’ Charge, you horses! Drive furiously, you charioteers!" - Jeramiah 46:7

"This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza:

This is what the Lord says: “See how the waters are rising in the north; they will become an overflowing torrent. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them. The people will cry out; all who dwell in the land will wail at the sound of the hooves of galloping steeds, at the noise of enemy chariots and the rumble of their wheels. Parents will not turn to help their children; their hands will hang limp." - Jeramiah 47:1-3

Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth." - Rev.12:15-16

As you can see, scripture over and over again, uses attacking armies or attacking people symbolically as torrents, raging waters, floods, etc.


That said, it should now be clear as to what the dragon/Satan is spewing out of his mouth after the woman/Israel.

I hope that this was beneficial to you

I agree with your interpretation of the woman and the flood. But it occurred following the resurrection of Christ. not at some future tme
 
This thread has been so active and interesting. I really want to read it all and take it to heart and pray for understanding. I just began work in children's ministry 3 weeks ago ... this week was more full than the rest. And my house is a mess now!!!! I hope I can get it all in order and take "spring break" (not mine, America's) to catch up on the home and you, my brethren's input.

Bless you all!!!
 
My hope is in the second and only coming of Christ. Another hope I have is that Pre Tribbers will not fall away when they find themselves caught up in the tribulation and realise that everything they believed about it is a Satanic delusion.
he comes in rev 14.

that is during the trib

that is before what you are referring to.

there is not only one coming.
 
Time to look a little at Chapter 6 of Revelation-----the Lamb opens the first seal during the Tribulation---- the Church has already been Raptures and all Hell is about to break loose----the First Seal is the white horse whose rider is the Anti-Christ--- he goes forth to conquer through peace--- he has a bow but no arrows---- the 2nd Seal is the red horse of war to take peace from the Earth*** the 3rd Seal is the black horse of famine----- the 4th horse was pale with Death as the rider given power to kill about 2 billion people ( one fourth of the Earth's population)-----this will be a terrible time iof judgment and destruction--- Hell on Earth--- worse than any time ever on Earth....
****continuing on in Chapter 6 of Revelation with the 6th Seal which show those martyred for the Word and their testimony--- this is not the Church for they have already been Raptured---- these are the remnant left after the Harvest of the Church ( the gleanings)--- some say I will wait for the Rapture and if it is true I will get island set but this may not be possible because those who were exposed to truth and rejected it could be deceived in the Tribulation based on 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12----the sixth Seal reveals a great earthquake which probably has volcanic activity with it for the sun is darkened and the moon becomes tinted red---and there will be atomic warfare with the mountains andGracends all being moved ---- the sky rolling up like a scroll and people hiding in the Earth as when their is atomic war and people sense God's judgments and are doomed having followed Satan... A terrible time to be on Earth--- Christ's Wrath being revealed---- we are not in the Day of Grace---- no Church as salt and light---- the preservative is gone and all is rotten--- Hell on Earth---- be Ready for the Rapture---- don' t be a foolish virgin--- get and keep extra oil ---- Revelation 3:18 " I counsel thee to buy if me gold tried in the fire, (extra oil) that thou mayest be rich...". ---- don't settle for half hearted Christian living where we are far from the Lord--- extra oil comes from the Lord--- obtain gold that you may be rich---- some out there may be getting drunk and beating the servants--- go to the Lord and repent and be restored---- if you are struggling keep going to the Lord in sincerity so He can restore you...
 
Let's continue on in Chapter 7 of Revelation which is a parenthetical Chapter which means: Sixth Seal (Chapter 7) Seventh Seal--- it is a pause between Chapter 6 & 7----four angels are holding the 4 winds which represent the evil throughout the whole Earth being held back for a purpose---- to seal the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists---- ( more to come...)
 
****continuing on in Chapter 6 of Revelation with the 6th Seal which show those martyred for the Word and their testimony--- this is not the Church for they have already been Raptured---- these are the remnant left after the Harvest of the Church ( the gleanings)--- some say I will wait for the Rapture and if it is true I will get island set but this may not be possible because those who were exposed to truth and rejected it could be deceived in the Tribulation based on 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12----the sixth Seal reveals a great earthquake which probably has volcanic activity with it for the sun is darkened and the moon becomes tinted red---and there will be atomic warfare with the mountains andGracends all being moved ---- the sky rolling up like a scroll and people hiding in the Earth as when their is atomic war and people sense God's judgments and are doomed having followed Satan... A terrible time to be on Earth--- Christ's Wrath being revealed---- we are not in the Day of Grace---- no Church as salt and light---- the preservative is gone and all is rotten--- Hell on Earth---- be Ready for the Rapture---- don' t be a foolish virgin--- get and keep extra oil ---- Revelation 3:18 " I counsel thee to buy if me gold tried in the fire, (extra oil) that thou mayest be rich...". ---- don't settle for half hearted Christian living where we are far from the Lord--- extra oil comes from the Lord--- obtain gold that you may be rich---- some out there may be getting drunk and beating the servants--- go to the Lord and repent and be restored---- if you are struggling keep going to the Lord in sincerity so He can restore you...

Hello88 and those reading,

If I may jump in. I would like to point out a common mistake made by many. At the opening of the 6th seal, there are those who consider the wrath of God to begin after the verse which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it." And so they put the wrath of God as taking place after the opening of the 6th seal and they exclude the previous seals as belonging to God's wrath.

The words "has come" in the verse above, are in the Aorist. So the meaning is that, the great day of their wrath has begun and will continue, which includes what will have previously taken place via seals 1 thru 4. Another thing to take into consideration is that, Jesus is the one who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, with the bowl judgments completing God's wrath. Therefore, He is the One who is initiating the wrath of God and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalities.

Also, regarding the sky being rolled up like a scroll and the kings, princes, generals, etc., calling to the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of him who sits on the throne. I believe that the sky rolling up may be that heaven is opening up and the inhabitants of the earth are able to see God sitting on his throne, which is why they are calling to the mountains and rocks to hide/kill them to get them out of God's line of sight and that because they are terrified. If it was a nuclear impact, the kings, the princes, and the generals would not be making reference to God sitting on His throne and that because they would know what a nuclear impact is. It wouldn't be the right response.

I would also like to point out another misconception regarding the below verse:

"The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth,"

The above verse is erroneously equated as being synonymous with the events of the sun, moon and stars in Matt.24:29. The verse above takes place at the 6th bowl judgment, which means following that seal would be the opening of the 7th seal, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. In contrast, the events of the sun, moon and stars in Matt.24:29, immediately precedes the Lord's return to the earth as a sign of his return to the earth, which would leave no time for the 7th seal to be opened nor the trumpet plagues and the bowl judgments to take place. Also, there is no earthquake mentioned in relation with the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29, as there is at the 6th seal. And in Matt.24:29, the verse states that the sun, moon and stars are darkened, where at the 6th seal the moon is said to turn blood red. So there are some differences.

Conclusion: Though Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal appear to be the same event, they are in fact two different events with some of the same similarities and which take place at different times during that last seven years.
 
Let's continue on in Chapter 7 of Revelation which is a parenthetical Chapter which means: Sixth Seal (Chapter 7) Seventh Seal--- it is a pause between Chapter 6 & 7----four angels are holding the 4 winds which represent the evil throughout the whole Earth being held back for a purpose---- to seal the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists---- ( more to come...)

True, there is a parenthetical pause between the 6th and 7th seal, which is the introduction of two new groups: The 144,000 who are 12,000 from each of the literal twelve tribes of Israel, minus Dan and replaced with Manessah. And the great tribulation saints who are that group which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers.

John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and here in chapter 7, the elder is asking John who these are in white robes and where they came from, which John replies that he doesn't know. This would demonstrate that this group is not the church.

I have information other information on the 144,000, but I will wait and share it when you get to Revelation 12.
 
followjesus:: Revelation 4:7 "And the first beast was like a LION, and the second beast like a CALF, and the third beast had a face as a MAN, and the fourth beast was like a flying EAGLE."


Ezekiel 1:10 "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the FACE OF a MAN, and the FACE OF a LION, on the right side: and they four had THE FACE OF of an OX on the left side; they four also had the FACE OF an EAGLE."
Ezekiel 10 : 12 "And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were FULL OF EYES round about, even the wheels that they four had. 13As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel. 14And every one had FOUR FACES: the first face was the face of a CHERUB, and the second face was the face of a MAN, and the third the face of a LION, and the fourth the face of an EAGLE."

I have heard these these beasts signify the four gospels. I since understand this was written before the gospels were brought together (while
that doesn't matter because God knows all, here you display ancient writings with far "younger" ones that intertwine)

What do you (and anyone else) find you know or "hear" about the beasts? I am trying to discuss this book as it is written, working my way through.

Hello CLee622,

I would also add that, these cherubim are also written about in Isaiah 6:1-6

"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

Holy, holy, holy is the same thing that John records them saying in Rev.4:8

 
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He is Alpha and Omega...

Hello 88,

Speaking of "Alpha and Omega," for anyone interested this is a good tool in witnessing to JW's. They don't believe that Jesus is God. So they will tell you that the reference to "the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last is referring to Jehovah God and not to Jesus. Then once you pin them down to agree to that, then you have them read the following:

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

"These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

"The designation of "the First and the Last" reveals Jesus as being God. For when did Jehovah ever die?
 
The only reason I entertained the idea of the child being born as someone other than Christ is because the number it gives is 1260 days. I do not think when God's Word says "days" that it means anything else.

Hello again CLee622,

Regarding the Male Child being someone other than Christ, you are on the right track. If you can except it, the male child is a collective name representing the 144,000. They are 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who will come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to), who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. These are the first fruits to God out of Israel and according to Rev.14:4, they will not have defiled themselves with woman, which would make this group all males, ergo, male child.

In addition to this, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child. The dragon/Satan is standing before the woman/Israel ready to devour/kill her child as soon as it is born. She gives birth to a male child and they are caught up to God and his throne before the dragon/Satan can kill it. In opposition, Jesus was devoured/killed and was not caught up, but was resurrected. The word "Harpazo" translated "caught up" is the same word used when paul was "caught up " to the 3rd heaven. It is the same word used when the two witnesses are caught up. That said, I believe that the male child/144,000 will be caught up in the same manner as the living church will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up.

Regarding the days, you are correct in that, 1260 days are 1260 days. The seven years is divided up in two 3 1/2 year periods, which are described as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, as you already mentioned.To make them anything but 1260 days, it would mess up the seven year period.