Jesus or Paul?
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I went through that too, actually. First I adored Paul. Then I said okay, he has still been of the greatest help to my understanding but he was a man of his times and a bit sexist, then I said, wait...there is now no more male or female, all one in Christ, yet women must be silent and must cover their heads because some women in the past did something with angels and we must always be under some laws still because of sin we did not commit. So our own sins are completely forgiven but we must bear those of other women. Then I decided that I would almost SWEAR that there are a few places where it cannot be my Paul speaking and someone must have slipped something in because could Paul not SEE his own contradictions?? Then I went to it being the churches fault for declaring "I give my opinion" and I THINK I have the mind of God on this" to be thus sayeth the Lord. So these are struggles for many and one of the stages we go through is this "throwing Paul under the bus" which I would state differently. I think it's all more the fault of other men and what they have done than of Paul. So that's where I eventually landed and I adore Paul, but I don't believe I must cover my head with a hat or scarf because of the sin of some women thousands of years ago. I don't even believe PAUL thought that. Could be wrong, but that's where I ended.
I've never attended one. I tried off and on at times, but didn't have any luck. In one the preacher said some of the miracles didn't actually happen, no joke. At another, I really enjoyed the sermon but was accosted by a large group of women who told me if I wanted to come back I'd need to wear a dress. At another, some women got into a brawl of sorts over someone not being sent flowers and whether they could afford to send flowers to people not on the "roll?" And the pastor just let it play out, nastiness, without getting up and saying a word and then he preached on how to grow your money in a godly way when I thought for sure he would be led by the Spirit to talk about love or forgiveness or talk about how all should visit the sick and take flowers if they could do so but that there were a lot of better uses for donated money, but no, he spoke about how to grow your money.
We are all settled on the stage we are in. It takes the Spirit to get us to move on. This is where he is and what he's struggling with. Give him and the Spirit some space and have a discussion with him in love, without bitterness and rancor. It's more our job to watch our own tongue and not start forest fires than it is to teach others. We have need of one Teacher.
Actually, he was kind of reminding me of Tolstoy and his Gospel In Brief...Tolstoy pared down the gospel, removing any part he had seen someone misuse, either by misunderstanding, or by guile, to prove their unbiblical point. You get the feeling he thought he was making the gospel stronger by taking away anything anyone had abused...but he just proved that he himself didn't understand those parts either.
Acts 17:30 "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"
Romans 2:4-5 "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."
[SUB]2 Corinthians 7:10[/SUB] "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."
These are Paul, words on repentance or to repent. Here's where the problem is. The Gospels are the Lord dealing with Israel's perversion of the Law and following the tradition of men over the Law. This is what the sermon on the mount is about. Jesus is not or didn't come to do away with the Law and the Prophets, Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth passaway, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do thesame will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Then Jesus goes on the personalize or spiritualize the Law, by getting to the root of sin the inward man, our thoughts. As He said, if you look at a women with lust, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Then He goes on to say if your right hand offers yo cut it off. Does Jesus literally mean this, yes if you want to live under the Law for your righteousness. Why do I say that because look at how Jesus starts ends what He is saying about the Law. Your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you says what? Jesus clarifies this in verse 48 "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." If you are going to live by the Law you'll need to be perfect from birth.
Jesus is the Savior and we need to be in fellowship with Him, because He is the Head of the Church. Here's what Paul said, Romans 15:8-9 "For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy."
I've seen the follow Paul only people use verse 8 to prove their point that Jesus came for Israel only, when the very next verse adds the Gentiles, they twist Scripture. The Gospels deal with Israel and the Law, Jesus is trying to bring them to the weightiermattersofthelaw. Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others."
Jesus commanded them for their tithing down to the smallest seed and the Law was supposed to bring you to this. Luke 18:10-14 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” The Pharisee was self righteous, he really thought that he kept the Law. While the tax collector realized that he needed God's mercy or he came to the knowledge of sin by the Law.
Here's what Paul says about the Law and it reflects this story, so if you see it in the Gospels, then again in the epistles you know it's something that needs to be followed or it's a doctrine. Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that whatever the Law says it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be accountable to God. For by works of the Law no human being will be justified in His sight, since through the Law comes knowledge of sin."
So the whole world is under the Law, so while we are in sin we were under the Law, so we did need to repent. Once you've repented you are not under that Law anymore but under grace. This whole thing of I follow Paul, you follow Jesus was a problem in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 "What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" 3:1-4 "But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,”are you not being merely human?"
This whole thing only brings division by immature people, I hope this helps you.
Romans 2:4-5 "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."
[SUB]2 Corinthians 7:10[/SUB] "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."
These are Paul, words on repentance or to repent. Here's where the problem is. The Gospels are the Lord dealing with Israel's perversion of the Law and following the tradition of men over the Law. This is what the sermon on the mount is about. Jesus is not or didn't come to do away with the Law and the Prophets, Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth passaway, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do thesame will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Then Jesus goes on the personalize or spiritualize the Law, by getting to the root of sin the inward man, our thoughts. As He said, if you look at a women with lust, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Then He goes on to say if your right hand offers yo cut it off. Does Jesus literally mean this, yes if you want to live under the Law for your righteousness. Why do I say that because look at how Jesus starts ends what He is saying about the Law. Your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you says what? Jesus clarifies this in verse 48 "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." If you are going to live by the Law you'll need to be perfect from birth.
Jesus is the Savior and we need to be in fellowship with Him, because He is the Head of the Church. Here's what Paul said, Romans 15:8-9 "For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy."
I've seen the follow Paul only people use verse 8 to prove their point that Jesus came for Israel only, when the very next verse adds the Gentiles, they twist Scripture. The Gospels deal with Israel and the Law, Jesus is trying to bring them to the weightiermattersofthelaw. Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others."
Jesus commanded them for their tithing down to the smallest seed and the Law was supposed to bring you to this. Luke 18:10-14 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” The Pharisee was self righteous, he really thought that he kept the Law. While the tax collector realized that he needed God's mercy or he came to the knowledge of sin by the Law.
Here's what Paul says about the Law and it reflects this story, so if you see it in the Gospels, then again in the epistles you know it's something that needs to be followed or it's a doctrine. Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that whatever the Law says it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be accountable to God. For by works of the Law no human being will be justified in His sight, since through the Law comes knowledge of sin."
So the whole world is under the Law, so while we are in sin we were under the Law, so we did need to repent. Once you've repented you are not under that Law anymore but under grace. This whole thing of I follow Paul, you follow Jesus was a problem in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 "What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" 3:1-4 "But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,”are you not being merely human?"
This whole thing only brings division by immature people, I hope this helps you.
It, the word of God, as the law of God. It, as the same spirit of faith according as it is written Ii how we can believe God (not see)It alone gives us the spiritual understanding hid from those who do not know Christ. It as that not seen coming from that seen (scripture) as the letter of the law interpreted is called the law of faith.(no seen) Why would you even try to make His law just another philosophical theory of men?.
It’s never about the culture but is about the spiritual conditions that God has revealed through the letter of His word, as that seen (the letter), you could say written by the finger of God. Fingers, hands and feet speak of the will of God
Again it’s not what Paul thought any more than it would be about what Balaam’s Ass thought .They are words God has put on the lips of the creature... but are what God reveals of His thoughts as to what He means .His interpretation
It is not of Paul's private interpretation as if it came by the will of man.
Again it would seem you are confused as to what the "letter of the law" means.By the letter of the law (God’s law and not Paul’s law) by comparing the spiritual words as understandings to the spiritual word we can know the thoughts of God .The word of God is after not man.
First things first.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were movedby the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
It has always been by the Spirit. God is Spirit.
If His laws (not theories) were not by the letter as that seen how would you get under the law of God so that you can do what it says? It would seem you are mixing scripture (the letter of the law) with the spiritual interpretation that comes from the letter.
It’s never about the culture but is about the spiritual conditions that God has revealed through the letter of His word, as that seen (the letter), you could say written by the finger of God. Fingers, hands and feet speak of the will of God
Again it’s not what Paul thought any more than it would be about what Balaam’s Ass thought .They are words God has put on the lips of the creature... but are what God reveals of His thoughts as to what He means .His interpretation
It is not of Paul's private interpretation as if it came by the will of man.
Again it would seem you are confused as to what the "letter of the law" means.By the letter of the law (God’s law and not Paul’s law) by comparing the spiritual words as understandings to the spiritual word we can know the thoughts of God .The word of God is after not man.
First things first.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were movedby the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
It has always been by the Spirit. God is Spirit.
If His laws (not theories) were not by the letter as that seen how would you get under the law of God so that you can do what it says? It would seem you are mixing scripture (the letter of the law) with the spiritual interpretation that comes from the letter.
There is definitely a disconnect here between you and I. I do not think it is a law of God that women not speak or ask questions in a gathering. And I do not think it is a law of God that women must cover their heads with a hat or scarf in a gathering. And I think if Paul was here he'd have a little bit of a fit at us for claiming it to be law.
Just like another member said,repent means to turn,not to say I'm sorry.