Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[Skinski7]

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

Righteousness cannot be transferred. That is patent nonsense. One cannot recieve the literal righteousness or iniquity of another. To believe that one has to throw reason out the window.

A Christian is literally made into the righteousness of God through abiding in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel message pertains to literal heart/character transformation. Thus a Child of God is a new creation in the context of having a renovated and reformed character. The Bible uses the term "heart purity" to describe it.

The idea of some abstract position in Christ absent purity of heart is simply the dame old lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" redressed.

When people believe that lie they think somehow that Jesus cloaks the manifest wickedness of their heart for they reject a salvation whereby one is actually saved from sin. Thus they truly believe intrinsically evil souls are going to enter Heaven because they have some kind of Jesus cloak.

 

[PeterJens]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3:17-18

So we are being made holy, pure, loving, blameless people, to ever increasing
degrees, Amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him?

I can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.


Works-based salvationists live by their own righteousness by what they do - this is anti-Christ and anti-gospel of the finished work of Christ.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith - NOT by our own works of righteousness.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe on Christ's work - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness because we are one with Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ" - NOT by our own self-righteousness.

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation is righteousness because of union with Christ.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

 

[Skinski7]

This absurd positionsl righteousness transfer doctrine is pretty similar to the Pharisees false religion. Their hearts remained wicked yet they thought they were in good standing with God, their confidence was in a bloodline and law keeping. They utterly rejected love out of a pure heart which works no ill and thus fulfills righteousness.

Same with the modern religionists and their stupid irrational doctrines. They put their confidence in silly dogmatic positions and also utterly reject love out of a pure heart which works no ill and thus fulfills righteousness.

That people actually believe that kind of nonsense just goes to dhow the depths of depravity into which the human mind can descend. The obvious is rejected and the utterly absurd is embraced.

 

[Grace777x70]

We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ. It was fore-told in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 45:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

Isaiah 54:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

We can live from our own self-righteousness or believe in what Christ has done on the cross and resurrection. Right believing will result in His life bearing goof fruit in and through us to reveal the love and grace for ourselves and for those around us that need to know the true nature of our loving Father towards all of us.

Repent and believe the gospel - just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

 

[PeterJens]

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Rom 5:17

Through Christ we are empowered to walk righteously, the gift of righteousness,
in reality to reign in life through one man, Jesus Christ.

It is easy to start saying this is not actually the ability to be righteous, it is just
a covering. But that is a fake impression, it is purely a masking of sin beneath,
of things not cleansed or purified, of a life still bound in failure and sin.

When you look at the apostles do you see failure and sin, or holiness, purity, love
encouragement to walk in Gods ways day in and day out.

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:18

Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Tim 4:12

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Eph 4:29

And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Heb 13:16

 

[PeterJens]

Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:24

Only by being in the Lord and following His ways have I righteousness and strength.
My righteousness and my strength come from the Lord.

Now this is not imputed righteousness and strength, because what use is strength
that God has if I am weak, because then I am still weak. No my strength is strong
because it comes from God, so equally my righteousness is strong because it comes
from God.

This imputed overlay is addictive but it missuses the obvious meaning.
I ate this food and it made me strong. This does not mean the food imputed to
me strength, it means it actually made me strong in my body.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Since when is doing good, and sharing with others, "sacrifices"? You don't have to sacrifice anything to do good things for others.. Just saying..

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Rom 5:17

Through Christ we are empowered to walk righteously, the gift of righteousness,
in reality to reign in life through one man, Jesus Christ.

It is easy to start saying this is not actually the ability to be righteous, it is just
a covering. But that is a fake impression, it is purely a masking of sin beneath,
of things not cleansed or purified, of a life still bound in failure and sin.

When you look at the apostles do you see failure and sin, or holiness, purity, love
encouragement to walk in Gods ways day in and day out.

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:18

Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Tim 4:12

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Eph 4:29

And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Heb 13:16

 

[Grace777x70]

If we could stop sinning or start loving others from a sheer act of our will there would be no need for Christ to come because all we would have to do is keep all the commandments that Moses put down for us by our own will-power.

In the natural the fruit of our own self-will and the fruit of our righteousness in Christ and His life in us effecting the change look alike outwardly. ( the same as Abrahams self-effort in his flesh produced a son outwardly )

Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God from his own self-effort but God only recognizes what comes from His work in us - no flesh shall glory in His presence.

When Abraham gave up and just believed that God would fulfill His promise - then God gave him and Sarah the ability to have a son. So, they just went about living naturally...had sex and God's promise came into being...a natural outflow of them just living....the son of promise came then. God's fruit in them being produced.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root..which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine.....His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people.."produce" this fruit..or else.

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something. It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak. I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

 

[PeterJens]

Since when is doing good, and sharing with others, "sacrifices"? You don't have to sacrifice anything to do good things for others.. Just saying..

It is a good point. How is doing something for someone else a sacrifice?
In scripture sacrifices are anything given to God as an offering. These things cost, and
are counted holy.

So anything can become a sacrifice, if it costs, and is given to another and is worthy before
the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

If we could stop sinning or start loving others from a sheer act of our will there would be no need for Christ to come because all we would have to do is keep all the commandments that Moses put down for us by our own will-power.

Here is the unbelief in Christ demonstrating itself.

In communion with God we are made a NEW CREATION capable of things not otherwise
possible. This changes the whole ball game.

It means we now can walk in love, grace and power. We are victorious and overcomers.

So many testimonies of people walking away from drugs, alcohol, sexual addictions, never
to turn back. This is not self, but the power of God in action in the believers life.

Yet the argument is if you mention this victory and overcoming it must be legalism and not
victory through Christ. It is like an automatic translation mechanism is in place.

But if one is this blind to the power of God in His people, there is not a lot one can do.

 

[Grace777x70]

The sky is blue....

 

[Sirk]

Here is the unbelief in Christ demonstrating itself.

In communion with God we are made a NEW CREATION capable of things not otherwise
possible. This changes the whole ball game.

It means we now can walk in love, grace and power. We are victorious and overcomers.

So many testimonies of people walking away from drugs, alcohol, sexual addictions, never
to turn back. This is not self, but the power of God in action in the believers life.

Yet the argument is if you mention this victory and overcoming it must be legalism and not
victory through Christ. It is like an automatic translation mechanism is in place.

But if one is this blind to the power of God in His people, there is not a lot one can do.

Jesus walked on water. Can you? If you can't your faith is weak.

 

[wsblind]

Here is the unbelief in Christ demonstrating itself.

In communion with God we are made a NEW CREATION capable of things not otherwise
possible. This changes the whole ball game.

It means we now can walk in love, grace and power. We are victorious and overcomers.

So many testimonies of people walking away from drugs, alcohol, sexual addictions, never
to turn back. This is not self, but the power of God in action in the believers life.

Yet the argument is if you mention this victory and overcoming it must be legalism and not
victory through Christ. It is like an automatic translation mechanism is in place.

But if one is this blind to the power of God in His people, there is not a lot one can do.

Yet, it is you that teach we can lose salvation. You don't believe in His victory and overcoming, but you are sure of yours.

 

[Skinski7]

You can quote the Bible till the cows come home Grace Guy but it is just as vain as the Pharisees. They quoted the Scriptures and twisted them to.

The elephant in the living room of your theological construct is that ignores the fundamental of genuine heart purity.

It's a subject you and your ilk will always skip over.

There is no love out of a pure heart in your religion and due to that all your quoting of scripture is as sounding brass, meaningless.

You argue from a position of dogma not that of a transformed heart.

The power of the Gospel is in the renovation of human character by the power of God. A real renovation that leaves one pure. Your religion is devoid of that.

All you do is fall back upon talking points that utterly ignore heart purity.

It's that simple.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Nope.. In scripture, most often sacrifices were burnt offerings such as a lamb or goat.. It costs us NOTHING to do something good for others.. Otherwise we wouldn't want to do it, if we had to sacrifice every time.. We should do things for others because we WANT to, not so that we can say to God, "look at all the good things I've done today". God says he loves a CHEERFUL giver, not one who sacrifices what he has, in order to look good in God's eyes.

It is a good point. How is doing something for someone else a sacrifice?
In scripture sacrifices are anything given to God as an offering. These things cost, and
are counted holy.

So anything can become a sacrifice, if it costs, and is given to another and is worthy before
the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

It costs us NOTHING to do something good for others

blue - I do not know which planet you live on, but doing anything costs time, energy, money,
effort.

I have helped clean up a garden for an elderly member of the church.
It took two of us a whole afternoon, and we had a good conversation,
enjoyed the sunshine, used quite a lot of effort.

So it cost me all those things, which I freely gave not expecting anything
in return. And the reason it is precious is because it does cost, but out
of love we give.

So this was a sacrifice of time, effort and love. I think you have a limited
view of sacrifices.

And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord.
Psalm 27:6

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Heb 13:15

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:1

But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.
Phil 2:17

I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.
Phil 4:18

 

[Grace777x70]

You can quote the Bible till the cows come home Grace Guy but it is just as vain as the Pharisees. They quoted the Scriptures and twisted them to.

The elephant in the living room of your theological construct is that ignores the fundamental of genuine heart purity.

It's a subject you and your ilk will always skip over.

There is no love out of a pure heart in your religion and due to that all your quoting of scripture is as sounding brass, meaningless.

You argue from a position of dogma not that of a transformed heart.

The power of the Gospel is in the renovation of human character by the power of God. A real renovation that leaves one pure. Your religion is devoid of that.

All you do is fall back upon talking points that utterly ignore heart purity.

It's that simple.

Nonsense. I say that it is the grace of God that teaches us how to live godly in this present world. I have quoted Titus 2:11-12 over 100x times and have stated that it is by grace through faith that we walk by the Spirit of God and that as we behold Christ as in a mirror - the glory/goodness of the Lord - the Holy Spirit transforms us outwardly to reflect the work of Christ in our new creation. .

I have also said this about 10x times or more too.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root..which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine.....His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Grace believers rely on Christ and His life by grace through faith to bring us life and for living godly as His fruit is manifested in our lives.

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people.."produce" this fruit..or else.

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something.

It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak and our own will-power will fail us. I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

Unfortunately works-based salvationists and sinless perfection in the flesh believers find the grace of God offensive and I understand why - it dis-qualifies their "work". The righteousness of God in Christ offends the works-based believers and thus they fight against the grace and work of Christ and replace what Christ has already done for what they "do".

 

[Skinski7]

Grace Guy,

You are just dancing again and repeating your circular talking points.

The elephant is obvious. You deny manifest heart purity in the genuine believer.

You'll refer to this or that but the one thing you will NEVER do is advocate that a genuine child God has a truly pure heart having been truly cleansed in redemption.

You'll dance around that point because you uphold a positional salvation in which a defiled heart remains, which is why people like you can never advocate that all the sins of the flesh must stop.

You uphold a sinning religion with Jesus being a cloak for iniquity.

 

[Magenta]

Grace Guy,

You are just dancing again and repeating your circular talking points.

The elephant is obvious. You deny manifest heart purity in the genuine believer.

You'll refer to this or that but the one thing you will NEVER do is advocate that a genuine child God has a truly pure heart having been truly cleansed in redemption.

You'll dance around that point because you uphold a positional salvation in which a defiled heart remains, which is why people like you can never advocate that all the sins of the flesh must stop.

You uphold a sinning religion with Jesus being a cloak for iniquity.

We are corruptible until after the resurrection and judgement of all.