Have you believed the false grace message?

[PeterJens]

yep.. They never had faith, Thats why they did not enter the promised land. Because all they did was complian and want to go back to what they really trusted,, Hence the golden calf.. They trusted the man made Gods more than they trusted the creator of the universe

Here is a nice clear cut description. But Korahs rebellion was from people who thought
they had faith, and could stand for the truth, against the current leadership.

250 people stood with unholy offerings before the Lord and were burnt to death.

Now, if people want to ignore Gods ways and truths that is their affair, but to simply
miss-represent clear scripture will always be refuted.

As a people we are no different than Israel, and pride and our own dispositions will
always drive us in various directions. We do not want to though end up in the place
Korah found himself, before the King, claiming His will, and being totally wrong.

 

[garee]

Trusting IS abiding.
SO you can see how someone would not be able to admit what you want them to admit - that eternal life is apart from abiding.

Abiding is the result of Christ's work of faith , we enter His rest from our own works. Its the faith of Christ we do abide in as he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.apart from that there is no salvation.

It would seem that some would believe God does not need faith to work out His will?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

so its all about you, and what you do, it is all of your own power. And not about the good work that Jesus begun in you the moment he made you alive in him.

Thanks.

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

there is no confidence given in your gospel.. Thus there can be no hope. No wonder you defend certain people the way you do. it all makes sense now.

I truly believe there will not ever be a coming together on this, EG. I just don't see how it is possible. It seems to me that you are so intent on the doctrine of OSAS that you remove the only thing that saves a man, because OSAS is the only important thing to you and everything must be wiped out to keep the doctrine.

I'm not saying all OSAS believers do this, but you have done it. You say,"eternal life by faith alone", but then you snatch faith back away and say, okay, done deal, now it's no longer by faith, abiding isn't necessary, whether you abide or not, you have eternal life.

I will respectfully bow out of conversation with you on this because I don't know what else to do with a man who has not thought through what he says completely. That doesn't mean I'm calling you stupid, by the way. But it's like you have built an airplane without testing and checking all the components and then you just jump in it to fly and don't realize it will crash because something's wrong.

 

[garee]

Here is a nice clear cut description. But Korahs rebellion was from people who thought they had faith, and could stand for the truth, against the current leadership.

250 people stood with unholy offerings before the Lord and were burnt to death.

They had faith in respect to their own selves and not the faith of Christ.The righteousness of God by faith.

Now, if people want to ignore Gods ways and truths that is their affair, but to simplymiss-represent clear scripture will always be refuted.

As a people we are no different than Israel, and pride and our own dispositions will always drive us in various directions.

Israel like your own self required a sign as a work they could perform before they would believe? They ignored the faith of Christ, of God.

We do not want to though end up in the place
Korah found himself, before the King, claiming His will, and being totally wrong.

Yes we must have the faith of Christ in respect to Christ, the Holy Spirit of God and not of our own selves as did those who followed after the faith of Korah rather than the faith of God..

Whose faith as a work are you trusting in?

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Abiding in Christ cannot be separated from expressing the life of Christ. Any grape which abides in the vine is both experiencing and expressing the life of the vine. Many want to produce an expression of Christian ministry without abiding in him. The result is empty religious ritual which produces a ministry of death. When the "Christian religion" is lacking the life of Christ, it has no more power or status than any other religion. Don't miss the point. When the "Christian religion" is lacking the life of Christ, it ceases to be Christianity and becomes nothing more than a moral religion which teaches people how they should behave. Biblical Christianity is an expression of the life of Christ through his church in this world."

"Living in Grace means that we express his life as a natural and normal part of our daily experience. We live trusting him to express himself through us every day. We don't have to overanalyze our actions and attitudes. Life isn't a test, it's a rest. The test has already been given and we received a perfect score because Jesus took the test for us. It's time now to celebrate! We don't need to live under a list of things we believe we ought to do. When we are living each day abiding in Christ we can do whatever we want to. As we abide in him, his desire will be our desire."

- Steve McVey

 

[FreeNChrist]

Trusting IS abiding.
SO you can see how someone would not be able to admit what you want them to admit - that eternal life is apart from abiding.

If any part of our "assurance" depends on us, then there is no real assurance. We are simply expressing confidence in ourselves, not assurance in Christ. Spiritual maturity is the outgrowth of spiritual security, not vise versa. Only when we understand, embrace, and begin to live in the awareness of our absolute security in Christ will we begin to bear real good fruit. That is essentially what Christ was saying when He taught His disciples the importance of "abiding" in Him.

 

[garee]

I truly believe there will not ever be a coming together on this, EG. I just don't see how it is possible. It seems to me that you are so intent on the doctrine of OSAS that you remove the only thing that saves a man, because OSAS is the only important thing to you and everything must be wiped out to keep the doctrine.

The only thing that saves a man is Christ’s work of faith or called a labor of love. Christ wiped out the whole sin debt, not in part. Are you removing it by having it (the faith of God) in respect to your own self?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Abiding is the result of Christ's work of faith , we enter His rest from our own works. Its the faith of Christ we do abide in as he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.apart from that there is no salvation.

It would seem that some would believe God does not need faith to work out His will?

Abiding IS faith. If you would go back over the posts very intently, you will see that I do NOT believe that faith/abiding is unnecessary. The entire discussion with EG has been had BECAUSE I object to teaching anyone that to continue in faith is unnecessary.

I'm not telling you that you may not keep your doctrine of OSAS. I am saying though that you might want to put it down for a brief while to examine what someone is saying they see as a problem. If you are defending saved by faith alone, how can you then remove that faith and abiding as necessary?

I don't know what else to say other than, read the discussion intently, to see what exactly is occurring and what the objection is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I keep telling you how. I keep answering. I keep saying: by not abiding. I keep saying it's not about works and that abiding does not mean works. How can abiding mean works when abiding means trusting? But you keep insisting the only answer could be to condemn someone with my mouth by pronouncing them unsaved. It seems to me like you want to make me say we have eternal life apart from, or irrespective of, abiding. And I can't say that because I believe it is not true. I'm not basing it on the doctrines of a church or denomination. I am basing it on scripture and what He has shown me and led me through in my own life and experience.

1. I did not tell you to condemn a person. I asked you a situation, and what would you believe about that situation. But like some others, You stray away from those questions. (why? I do not know)

2. Abide is a work, It is something you claim one must do. If they do they have eternal life, If they do not, they lose eternal life (meaning it was never eternal to begin with, which is another subject)

3. You said if we abide we do not sin, If we do not abide we sin.

There is no saved status apart from abiding. If we abide we don't sin. When we don't abide, we sin.
I can be as nice as pie, but if I don't abide in Him, I don't have eternal life. And if I abide in Him, I'm not going to be nasty and selfish because that is not what He is like. So I will grow more and more like Him as I abide. I will improve and grow in the virtues.

so if we abide, we do works, if we do not abide, we do not do works.

abide = no sin = works

not abide = sin = no works.

Get the point?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Trusting IS abiding.
SO you can see how someone would not be able to admit what you want them to admit - that eternal life is apart from abiding.

No, That is not true..

God holds us, God seals us God promised to never let us go.

Faith is in his promise of these things..

Eternal life is given to those who have faith, and ask God to give them his gift, John says we can now we have it, Not that we may have it, but might lose it,, But we HAVE IT, so that we can continue to believe (believe in Christ is based on the hope of his promise, if we do not have assurance in that hope. our belief will fail)

eternal life is Not in abiding. That is where you we have issues.. It is no different than the issues i have with peter saying the cross is not enough.. You are claiming the cross is not enough also.. You are saying we need the cross. PLUS my power. my ability my willingness to do that hard work of abiding..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why must a doctrine of OSAS teach men that even faith is now no longer necessary, (except for a little while until they are "saved?")

who is arguing the doctrine of OSAS?

I am discussing the security we have in Christ and eternal life. not some doctrine.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

1. I did not tell you to condemn a person. I asked you a situation, and what would you believe about that situation. But like some others, You stray away from those questions. (why? I do not know)

2. Abide is a work, It is something you claim one must do. If they do they have eternal life, If they do not, they lose eternal life (meaning it was never eternal to begin with, which is another subject)

3. You said if we abide we do not sin, If we do not abide we sin.




so if we abide, we do works, if we do not abide, we do not do works.

abide = no sin = works

not abide = sin = no works.

Get the point?

As I said, I do not know how this can avail either of us to continue the discussion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I just can't even understand what your thought is here. It IS faith that saves me. It is by faith I am saved. And I strenuously disagree that a faith that wavers is not faith at all. This IS the entire race you are now trying to remove.

sorry,, Faith means a full assurance.

You can not claim you have faith when you are not fully assured.. if you were fully assured, You would not be saying it could be lost based on something you did..

all that shows is that your faith is in your ability to abide, not in the promises of God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I prefer the doctrine of blessed assurance, which is similar but not exactly the same.

Philippians 1:6 ►
New International Version

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This is faith.

This is our hope (the evidence of things not seen)

this is the promise of God, in which our hope is based.. and our faith is empowered.

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, Who can not lie, promised before time began"


If i do not have ETERNAL life. I have no hope.. If i have no hope. I have no faith, If i have no faith, I have no salvation.

Our hope is based on our assurance, our faith is based on our hope.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, That is not true..

God holds us, God seals us God promised to never let us go.

Faith is in his promise of these things..

Eternal life is given to those who have faith, and ask God to give them his gift, John says we can now we have it, Not that we may have it, but might lose it,, But we HAVE IT, so that we can continue to believe (believe in Christ is based on the hope of his promise, if we do not have assurance in that hope. our belief will fail)

eternal life is Not in abiding. That is where you we have issues.. It is no different than the issues i have with peter saying the cross is not enough.. You are claiming the cross is not enough also.. You are saying we need the cross. PLUS my power. my ability my willingness to do that hard work of abiding..

I am not saying the cross is not enough. By shedding His blood (the cross) He made payment for my sin.
I am saying the cross does not effect the cutting away of perseverance in faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I truly believe there will not ever be a coming together on this, EG. I just don't see how it is possible. It seems to me that you are so intent on the doctrine of OSAS that you remove the only thing that saves a man, because OSAS is the only important thing to you and everything must be wiped out to keep the doctrine.

I'm not saying all OSAS believers do this, but you have done it. You say,"eternal life by faith alone", but then you snatch faith back away and say, okay, done deal, now it's no longer by faith, abiding isn't necessary, whether you abide or not, you have eternal life.

I will respectfully bow out of conversation with you on this because I don't know what else to do with a man who has not thought through what he says completely. That doesn't mean I'm calling you stupid, by the way. But it's like you have built an airplane without testing and checking all the components and then you just jump in it to fly and don't realize it will crash because something's wrong.

As someone said earlier.. People are to busy trying to argue doctrines, and not trying to discuss the word. and thats why people never seem to understand what the other is saying, they are too busy promoting, or attacking doctrines. and not what the people are actually saying.

I am not arguing OSAS.. I am not even mentioning it, You are..

Your right, we can not come together, Your trying to attack a doctrine no one is even discussing, and not trying to figure out what I believe, Just like Peter..

You want to bow out feel free.

I will still from time to time confront peter when I see something others post (i have him on ignore..) and I will do the same for you if I see something I disagree with.

it is ok to disagree.. its not the end of the world like some like to make it (peter)

but I do pray some day we can discuss the word, And not some doctrine.. I do not care to discuss doctrines unless the doctrine is being discussed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

sorry,, Faith means a full assurance.

You can not claim you have faith when you are not fully assured.. if you were fully assured, You would not be saying it could be lost based on something you did..

all that shows is that your faith is in your ability to abide, not in the promises of God..

This is like saying: your trust is in your ability to keep trusting. But trusting in Him is not trusting in my own ability. It is trusting in Him...this makes no sense to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abiding IS faith. If you would go back over the posts very intently, you will see that I do NOT believe that faith/abiding is unnecessary. The entire discussion with EG has been had BECAUSE I object to teaching anyone that to continue in faith is unnecessary.

And EG has not stated this is true.. But you can not see this, because you do not listen to what EG says, You listen to him through the OSAS glasses you have put on any time you discuss anything with him or anyone else..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is like saying: your trust is in your ability to keep trusting.

Nope. I am saying my faith is in God and his ability, not my own.

But trusting in Him is not trusting in my own ability.

If your not trusitng in his promise and his mercy of saving you, You have nothing left but to trust in yourself.

It is trusting in Him...this makes no sense to me.

Do you trust him when he says that the work he began with you on the day he saved you, he will continue to do that work until the day of Jesus?

or only as long as you abide in him (your ability)?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

As someone said earlier.. People are to busy trying to argue doctrines, and not trying to discuss the word. and thats why people never seem to understand what the other is saying, they are too busy promoting, or attacking doctrines. and not what the people are actually saying.

I am not arguing OSAS.. I am not even mentioning it, You are..

Your right, we can not come together, Your trying to attack a doctrine no one is even discussing, and not trying to figure out what I believe, Just like Peter..

You want to bow out feel free.

I will still from time to time confront peter when I see something others post (i have him on ignore..) and I will do the same for you if I see something I disagree with.

it is ok to disagree.. its not the end of the world like some like to make it (peter)

but I do pray some day we can discuss the word, And not some doctrine.. I do not care to discuss doctrines unless the doctrine is being discussed.

I'm not attacking anything. I am saying that you cannot say you have eternal life through trust in Christ and then say to continue in that trust is not necessary. It is unbiblical. It is like grabbing a life raft and then letting go of a life raft.