Have you believed the false grace message?

[Roughsoul1991]

You think God throws his children into the fire?

Nice try.

Israel was branches, they were cut off, why? Unbelief.. Now are you telling me that the people of isreal who crucified Christ was saved, and LOST salvation because they did not abide?

Many times the Israelites in the same generation would see miracles and praise God but then after awhile they started to think it was better to had stayed in slavery. And some were killed by God.

[FONT=&quot]4 Then they set out from Mount Hor by way of the Red Sea to bypass the land of Edom, but the people[b] became impatient because of the journey. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 The people spoke against God and Moses: “Why have you led us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread or water, and we detest this wretched food!” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 Then the Lord sent poisonous[c][d]snakes among the people, and they bit them so that many Israelites died.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 The people then came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you. Intercede with the Lord so that He will take the snakes away from us.” And Moses interceded for the people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake image and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will recover.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. Whenever someone was bitten, and he looked at the bronze snake, he recovered.[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Many times the Israelites in the same generation would see miracles and praise God but then after awhile they started to think it was better to had stayed in slavery. And some were killed by God.

4 Then they set out from Mount Hor by way of the Red Sea to bypass the land of Edom, but the people[b] became impatient because of the journey. 5 The people spoke against God and Moses: “Why have you led us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread or water, and we detest this wretched food!” 6 Then the Lord sent poisonous[c][d]snakes among the people, and they bit them so that many Israelites died.7 The people then came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you. Intercede with the Lord so that He will take the snakes away from us.” And Moses interceded for the people.
8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake image and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will recover.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. Whenever someone was bitten, and he looked at the bronze snake, he recovered.

yep.. They never had faith, Thats why they did not enter the promised land. Because all they did was complian and want to go back to what they really trusted,, Hence the golden calf.. They trusted the man made Gods more than they trusted the creator of the universe

 

[Ariel82]

I don't remember reading that Stunnedbygrace believes salvation can be lost.

She had stressed the importance of abiding in Christ, which everyone agrees is a good thing.

Perhaps you are mixing up posters, EG?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving faith in Christ. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone Jesus (v. 59).

Hebrews 4:2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest.

Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (NASB); ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV).

Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (NASB); ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV).

Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (NASB); ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV).

"Any failing from the grace of God" is how its worded in greek to english.

[QUOTEJust because the author was speaking to Jewish Christians does not mean that everyone in this very large group of professing believers must be a genuine Christian. If the Pastor of a church (particular a very large church) on Sunday morning greets the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the message that morning is specifically addressed to believers, does that mean that EVERYONE in attendance that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer/Christian?][/QUOTE]

This would be true if the author was giving a sermon. But he was sending a letter to the believers in the church. And warning them about what deliberate sin could do to who is living in the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

Many times the Israelites in the same generation would see miracles and praise God but then after awhile they started to think it was better to had stayed in slavery. And some were killed by God.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Ariel82]

And it comes down to once a person invites Jesus in. Does he delay? Or does he say nope this persons faith is not quite right. If so then I could see a believer thinking they are saved but then when hard times hit they fall away and you could say well he wasnt genuinely saved. So he wasnt considered rightious even though they start strong but their roots are not deep.

I just do not believe this. I person is counted rightious if he being led by the Spirit listens and does what the Spirit is guiding. This is what the seal means that who is in the Spirit will 100% be in Heaven.



I also do not agree with this because the author was speaking the verse to Jewish Christians as the recipient of the letter. He was just giving them reassurance that they was living in the Spirit.

Okay let me see if I understand your beliefs correctly...

1. You believe that once you have faith and confess Jesus, He comes immediately.

You don't have to have a certain "level" of faith to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, like some Charismatic or Pentecostal churches preach?

2. Your believe the seal is the Holy Spirit leading people and that ensures that they will 100% be lead to heaven?

3. You believe Paul wrote a letter to genuine believers that they can fall away and end up in hell?


You see I don't get how 2 and 3 can co-exist. If the Holy Spirit leads, then how do you end up in hell?

 

[garee]

And it comes down to once a person invites Jesus in. Does he delay? Or does he say nope this persons faith is not quite right.

Invite? Doe he not do the first work?

The word invite can be very deceptive. It can be a way of putting the cart before the house.

He does the first work of freely giving a person His faith so that then after we have received His work of faith, called the hearing of faith we can believe. We don’t invite Him, He is the bride groom.

So then it would seem that you are saying we do the first work of faith by drawing Jesus according to our invitation. Faith without works is dead.

It would seem he does the first work of calling the elect. Where do you find that we invite Him?
Invite Jesus or believe him according to his work of faith that works in us drawing us towards him?

 

[mailmandan]

"Any failing from the grace of God" is how its worded in greek to english.

Which means to come short of the grace of God/fails to obtain the grace of God.

This would be true if the author was giving a sermon. But he was sending a letter to the believers in the church. And warning them about what deliberate sin could do to who is living in the Spirit.

And it's not difficult to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with a very large group of genuine believers. Whether giving a sermon or not, the principle is the same.

1 John is written to believers, yet in 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

*I already explained the deliberate/willful sin in post #543.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree. And always remember that there are tares in the wheat. People acting humble and they are not. People acting saved and they are not. And God is NOT working on them.

And I am absolutely NOT saying anyone here is a tare. Just don't forget that this will happen. They will look like wheat, but inwardly........

Yes...but I can't tell the difference between them and someone who is my brother but just on a lower or earlier rung of the ladder of virtue. Occasionally, I suspect it, but I still find I can't attack them because I just...hope for them.

 

[PeterJens]

God is not going to intervene in this discussion, it is up to the contributors to recognise
His ways.

I thought yesterday about something I had written and anothers response. I had on purpose
made something black and white, extreme and generalised, so it could not be found fault with.
And that was the point, it was too extreme and too faultless it did not describe life and its
compromises and tensions, the choice somewhere between the two, that brings about love
yet at not too high a price.

But the legalist mind stuck to it like glue. And it gave me an insight to peoples insecurities.
Relationships are fluid, with no certain outcome, bounded by care and love, working things
through, rejoicing with success and mourning loss and defeat.

Christ is always in this place between the two, cost and blessing, love and justice, judgement
and reward. To trust the cross is to reach out and declare I need your love in my life, I need
your knowledge in my soul, I need to be like you, Jesus. Amen

I hope all who come here come with this cry, so let us walk together to learn more about our King.
For the cross is certain, it says, I know you, I am here for you, you are known and loved by me.
I will help you walk in my ways, heal you and protect you from the evil one. Amen

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

thats what I thought,, You will not back up your own words.

You claim salvation can be lost. But then how? I gave you situations, and you refuse to do it.. trying to say I am asking you to judge a person, when I am asking you to judge a situation, not a person.

How can we then know what you believe? Or do you even know what you believe?

See that is the cause of confusion between people.. People make claims, then refuse to back them up.

I have no fear. That person (if he was saved) is still saved. period. Because he could never save himself to begin with, so there is nothing he could do to KEEP his salvation to end with (meaning nothing he could do to lose it either)

there, was that so hard?

I keep telling you how. I keep answering. I keep saying: by not abiding. I keep saying it's not about works and that abiding does not mean works. How can abiding mean works when abiding means trusting? But you keep insisting the only answer could be to condemn someone with my mouth by pronouncing them unsaved. It seems to me like you want to make me say we have eternal life apart from, or irrespective of, abiding. And I can't say that because I believe it is not true. I'm not basing it on the doctrines of a church or denomination. I am basing it on scripture and what He has shown me and led me through in my own life and experience.

 

[garee]

This would be true if the author was giving a sermon. But he was sending a letter to the believers in the church. And warning them about what deliberate sin could do to who is living in the Spirit.

Deliberate contrasted with accidental? What would happen to a believer that sins deliberately by denying Christ, in unbelief?

Would it make the faith of God without effect?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thanks bro.. It is those who trust him who abide, Not those who are sinless. or doing all these great works..

faith of a mustard seed!

Trusting IS abiding.
SO you can see how someone would not be able to admit what you want them to admit - that eternal life is apart from abiding.

 

[garee]

I thought yesterday about something I had written and anothers response. I had on purpose
made something black and white, extreme and generalised, so it could not be found fault with.
And that was the point, it was too extreme and too faultless it did not describe life and its
compromises and tensions, the choice somewhere between the two, that brings about love
yet at not too high a price.

Christ paid the full eternal wage of sin. High enough, or Limbo the in-between?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Why must a doctrine of OSAS teach men that even faith is now no longer necessary, (except for a little while until they are "saved?")

 

[Ariel82]

God is not going to intervene in this discussion, it is up to the contributors to recognise
His ways.

I thought yesterday about something I had written and anothers response. I had on purpose
made something black and white, extreme and generalised, so it could not be found fault with.
And that was the point, it was too extreme and too faultless it did not describe life and its
compromises and tensions, the choice somewhere between the two, that brings about love
yet at not too high a price.

But the legalist mind stuck to it like glue. And it gave me an insight to peoples insecurities.
Relationships are fluid, with no certain outcome, bounded by care and love, working things
through, rejoicing with success and mourning loss and defeat.

Christ is always in this place between the two, cost and blessing, love and justice, judgement
and reward. To trust the cross is to reach out and declare I need your love in my life, I need
your knowledge in my soul, I need to be like you, Jesus. Amen

I hope all who come here come with this cry, so let us walk together to learn more about our King.
For the cross is certain, it says, I know you, I am here for you, you are known and loved by me.
I will help you walk in my ways, heal you and protect you from the evil one. Amen

I like some of what you say, but it is mixed with salt and lies.

God does intervene, even in this conversation. Therefore it is not up to us alone, for those who have Christ can pray and seek His counsel.

Drop your "legalist" diatribe. If you could learn to pray and reread your posts, take out the barbs and arrows, Before posting. There would be less bristling when you speak.

Folks do not offer a hand in friendship to those who in the breathe before have insulted them by implying they are legalist or that they are engaging in a conversation that Christ is not present in.

I know that if two or more are gathered in His name, God is present. Therefore God should be present in this and every conversation between believers. If he is present, then why do you say He will not intervene?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It would be even more foolish to think your pseudo faith (a faith that wavers which is not really faith at all) could save you..

I just can't even understand what your thought is here. It IS faith that saves me. It is by faith I am saved. And I strenuously disagree that a faith that wavers is not faith at all. This IS the entire race you are now trying to remove.

 

[tourist]

Why must a doctrine of OSAS teach men that even faith is now no longer necessary, (except for a little while until they are "saved?")

I believe that faith is always necessary regardless of one's doctrine that is practiced.

 

[Ariel82]

Why must a doctrine of OSAS teach men that even faith is now no longer necessary, (except for a little while until they are "saved?")

I prefer the doctrine of blessed assurance, which is similar but not exactly the same.

Philippians 1:6 ►
New International Version

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[tourist]

I prefer the doctrine of blessed assurance, which is similar but not exactly the same.

Blessed assured hope is a wonderful thing to have.