The Rapture of the Church
- Thread starter MessageOfTheCross
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G
1 Thessalonians 4:
[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This passage - along with 1 Corinthians 15 - tells me that:
~ the souls of the dead-in-Christ will be brought from Heaven.
~ the bodies of the dead-in-Christ will be raised from the dead -- "by definition" - this means that the souls will 'rejoin" with their bodies; the end of this will be that they will receive their "incorruptible" / "glorified" bodies.
~ the living will receive their "incorruptible" / "glorified" bodies.
~ All of them will be 'raptured' / "gathered" together to meet Jesus in the air.
The phrase "the dead in Christ shall rise first" tells us that the [ actual ] bodies of the dead-in-Christ will be [ physically ] raised from the dead.
I think you may be misunderstanding what 1 Corinthians 15 is saying -- it actually indicates that the physical body will be "raised" and "changed" at that same time... ( verses 42-44 )
[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This passage - along with 1 Corinthians 15 - tells me that:
~ the souls of the dead-in-Christ will be brought from Heaven.
~ the bodies of the dead-in-Christ will be raised from the dead -- "by definition" - this means that the souls will 'rejoin" with their bodies; the end of this will be that they will receive their "incorruptible" / "glorified" bodies.
~ the living will receive their "incorruptible" / "glorified" bodies.
~ All of them will be 'raptured' / "gathered" together to meet Jesus in the air.
The phrase "the dead in Christ shall rise first" tells us that the [ actual ] bodies of the dead-in-Christ will be [ physically ] raised from the dead.
I think you may be misunderstanding what 1 Corinthians 15 is saying -- it actually indicates that the physical body will be "raised" and "changed" at that same time... ( verses 42-44 )
Samuel,,,,Think he says it pretty good in 1 Co 15:50-57...." Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (<--)
(<-a comma enhances verse 51 with 52 )
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:(<--) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised (Bodies of both OT Saints and NT Saints) incorruptible, (<--)
and we shall be changed.(here the living are changed.) "
Because the Dead are already raised incorruptible, those that are living ("We shall not all sleep) which leads into verse 53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Samuel..... God gives us this victory over death. There are other passages that are a little more descriptive. Keep in mind that all of these passages are GOD's words..
How do you doubt??????
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (<--)
(<-a comma enhances verse 51 with 52 )
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:(<--) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised (Bodies of both OT Saints and NT Saints) incorruptible, (<--)
and we shall be changed.(here the living are changed.) "
Because the Dead are already raised incorruptible, those that are living ("We shall not all sleep) which leads into verse 53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Samuel..... God gives us this victory over death. There are other passages that are a little more descriptive. Keep in mind that all of these passages are GOD's words..
How do you doubt??????
Let me suggest that God knows the location - of every electron, neutron, and proton - of every atom - of a person's body - that they had at or before the time of their death...
( And, is able to "reassemble" a person's body with those very same particles if He so wishes to do so. )
So -- whether a person may be eaten by a shark - or burn up in a fresh bed of molten lava - it makes no difference.
If every last single atom of a person's body gets separated from all of the rest - it does not matter.
God is able.
And, what God says that He will do --- He will do --- you can count on it!
Believe it!
( And, is able to "reassemble" a person's body with those very same particles if He so wishes to do so. )
So -- whether a person may be eaten by a shark - or burn up in a fresh bed of molten lava - it makes no difference.
If every last single atom of a person's body gets separated from all of the rest - it does not matter.
God is able.
And, what God says that He will do --- He will do --- you can count on it!
Believe it!
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
i hear what you are saying, but you can't negate verses which teach otherwise.
Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Every soul, that would include Christians too, brother. The Hour of Temptation will be a time that the tribulation will come upon the Saints as well as everyone in the World. Saints can either embrace it knowing they deserve it because it is written you reap what you sow, and for all the evil that they have done after accepting Christ as their Savior and Lord. OR they can deny Christ and fall away because of the sorrows that has come upon them.
Nowhere does it say we will not suffer. JOB suffered tribulation. Jesus suffered tribulation. the Apostles all suffered tribulations. We are not promised to not suffer. It is written we will go through much tribulation to enter into the Kingdom of God. If you do evil, you will suffer for it.
Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
So is it any wonder that when Tribulation starts that many people, yes even Christians will be greatly suffering in their flesh? This is what causes the Great Falling away. Scriptures can't be broken. if you as a Christian are sowing to your flesh, you will reap corruption. Most people do not suffer this corruption immediately. they are storing up for themselves this corruption that MUST come upon them,for the Great Tribulations, because the Word of God is not broken, this suffering will come upon most people during the first 3 1/2 years prior to the Rapture, as indicated in the Timeline.
Jesus nor any Apostle excludes us from suffering from part of the Tribulation Period, but for the Saints sakes, Jesus shortens that time for the Saints, and they are Raptured in the middle of the Tribulation Period and not at the end of it.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Every soul, that would include Christians too, brother. The Hour of Temptation will be a time that the tribulation will come upon the Saints as well as everyone in the World. Saints can either embrace it knowing they deserve it because it is written you reap what you sow, and for all the evil that they have done after accepting Christ as their Savior and Lord. OR they can deny Christ and fall away because of the sorrows that has come upon them.
Nowhere does it say we will not suffer. JOB suffered tribulation. Jesus suffered tribulation. the Apostles all suffered tribulations. We are not promised to not suffer. It is written we will go through much tribulation to enter into the Kingdom of God. If you do evil, you will suffer for it.
Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
So is it any wonder that when Tribulation starts that many people, yes even Christians will be greatly suffering in their flesh? This is what causes the Great Falling away. Scriptures can't be broken. if you as a Christian are sowing to your flesh, you will reap corruption. Most people do not suffer this corruption immediately. they are storing up for themselves this corruption that MUST come upon them,for the Great Tribulations, because the Word of God is not broken, this suffering will come upon most people during the first 3 1/2 years prior to the Rapture, as indicated in the Timeline.
Jesus nor any Apostle excludes us from suffering from part of the Tribulation Period, but for the Saints sakes, Jesus shortens that time for the Saints, and they are Raptured in the middle of the Tribulation Period and not at the end of it.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
The rapture takes place at Jesus final coming at the end of time when He introduces His eternal kingdom.
We may go through a period of wrath, indeed we are in one now (Rom 1.18) but we will not have suffered His wrath.
There will be no millennial kingdom, it is a myth based on misinterpretation of Rev 20
We may go through a period of wrath, indeed we are in one now (Rom 1.18) but we will not have suffered His wrath.
There will be no millennial kingdom, it is a myth based on misinterpretation of Rev 20
Can someone answer this for me, the part where Jesus mentions Noah and Lot, speaking of the judgement that came to the wicked, the stories are about how the Lord rescued them out of the judgement. If the great tribulation is the judgement or wrath on the wicked, with Noah the flood didn't come until the day that he entered the ark, with Lot it didn't rain down fire and brimstone until he left the city. So both were taken out before the judgement/warth happened, Luke 17:26-30. Why would Jesus add them to the details of His coming, here's something else that I don't totally understand either, Jesus mentions the sign of His coming in Matthew 24:30, help me out here? I made the letters bold, italics and underlined, on the parts I have questions on, thanks. Oh yeah what's up with Lot's wife?
Luke 17:22-37 “Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Mathew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Luke 17:22-37 “Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Mathew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Not sure what you meant, yes the same body that He lived in, but not the same body as to it's glory.
I Corinthians 15:39-49 “All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”
I Corinthians 15:39-49 “All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”
M
Which, by the way, is yet another refutation of PreTrib doctrine...which claims we are all ("whoosh!") zapped away in a split second. There would be no time to observe the Lord for several moments and/or over the period of a minute or two "descending in a cloud".
But that is precisely what is described in the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:30 -- "...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."...a clear echoing of Acts 1:10-11.
In the concocted PreTrib scenario...you "see" nothing. You're just zapped away.
NOW...I would be careful to add that there is indeed a split second physical transformation - "we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15:52)...but that miraculous 'split second' physical transformation does not prevent you from observing Jesus slowly descending in the clouds.
Therefore, it is counter-biblical to say we are zapped away. Numerous places in the Bible describe how we will see Jesus coming "in the clouds and in great glory"...over a period of moments and/or several minutes prior to being "gathered" into His immediate presence.
But that is precisely what is described in the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:30 -- "...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."...a clear echoing of Acts 1:10-11.
In the concocted PreTrib scenario...you "see" nothing. You're just zapped away.
NOW...I would be careful to add that there is indeed a split second physical transformation - "we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15:52)...but that miraculous 'split second' physical transformation does not prevent you from observing Jesus slowly descending in the clouds.
Therefore, it is counter-biblical to say we are zapped away. Numerous places in the Bible describe how we will see Jesus coming "in the clouds and in great glory"...over a period of moments and/or several minutes prior to being "gathered" into His immediate presence.
M
In your Bible study have you seen the parallel between the Jewish wedding and the church being caught up. If you haven't look into it. The church (ten virgins Matthew 25:1-13) is waiting for Jesus (bridegroom Matthew 25:1-13) to return from preparing a place for His bride (John 14:2-3). When He comes to receive us we will return with him to be His bride. To answer your original question look at Deuteronomy 24:5. Jesus is my Husband and he shall not go to war or do any work for one year. This means He shall not open the first seal to usher in the tribulation until He fulfills the marriage law for one year. My question to all viewing this post is could the He referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 be referring to Jesus? Those who are post-trib need not reply to this question. You will have other opportunities with me to explain your theology. I spent a season in a messianic church and I'm very familiar with your beliefs. Another time please.