Flood - worldwide or local?

[Magenta]

This is an aside, just commenting on the height of mountains generally... over a year ago I was suddenly introduced to an artist who had an incredible back history of work to her credit. I went to see her in concert, and her opening act was so cute, making fun of themselves and repeatedly profusely apologizing for ever thinking what they have back east are mountains after seeing our mountains here. And our mountains here are not as high as mountains elsewhere, that is for sure The Himalayas have peaks two thousand meters taller than BC's highest mountains

 

[wsblind]

How long did it take Noah to build the ark?

120 years.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

120 years.

we know this for a fact? Not trying to argue, just want to prove it before I make my point.

 

[valiant]

I think the 15 cubits was the depth of the flood. Some believe, which I hold to, that before the flood mountains and valleys did not have the differences in height they have to today.

In that way Noah's Flood didn't cover the Himalayas, it formed them, just as it formed the Grand Canyon.

There is an passage in Genesis that is I believe in general is overlooked, but holds what I believe to be key into our early world after the flood. Genesis 10:25 states

...“Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided”.

I believe this passage describes a time when God supernaturally separated the continents one from another. The Bible says that Peleg (which means divide) was born 100 years after the flood and lived for 239 years. The division is said to have taken place during his lifetime but does not say how long it took.

It would seem at that time the highest mountain was approx. 22 ½ feet.(fifteenth cubits)

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains werecovered.

After six months of flooding and terrestrial deluge — according to Psalm 104:6–8 — the mountains were raised and the valleys lowered . Never again to be destroyed by flood.

You have set the earth firmly on its foundations, and it will never be moved.You placed the ocean over it like a robe, and the water covered the mountains. When you rebuked the waters, they fled they rushed away when they heard your shout of command. They flowed over the mountains and into the valleys,to the place you had made for them. You set a boundary they can never pass, to keep them from “covering” the earth again. Psalm 104:6–8

Psalm 104 is a creation narrative, not a flood narrative. It describes Genesis 2.9 etc. Read it.

 

[Magenta]

we know this for a fact? Not trying to argue, just want to prove it before I make my point.

Some say much less than 120 years... maybe seventy five.

 

[valiant]

we know this for a fact? Not trying to argue, just want to prove it before I make my point.

It nowhere says, the one hundred and twenty years is enigmatic. It says nothing about the building of the Ark.

 

[wsblind]

we know this for a fact? Not trying to argue, just want to prove it before I make my point.

No. But I would guess it was right close to 120 years.

 

[BeyondET]

This is an aside, just commenting on the height of mountains generally... over a year ago I was suddenly introduced to an artist who had an incredible back history of work to her credit. I went to see her in concert, and her opening act was so cute, making fun of themselves and repeatedly profusely apologizing for ever thinking what they have back east are mountains after seeing our mountains here. And our mountains here are not as high as mountains elsewhere, that is for sure The Himalayas have peaks two thousand meters taller than BC's highest mountains

Still increasing in height too, cause of the Indo-Australia plate moment...

 

[abcdef]

.

There were many tribes on planet earth at Noah's time,

Some more "human" than others.

The tribe of the human souls, the descendants of Adam, were in a covenant relationship with the Creator.

Their souls were designed by God to be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

---

Were they aware of the the areas outside of their local situation,? I don't think so.

So the description that is given to us is only Noah's version of what happened. (localized description)

---

As far as I can tell, the only event that would cause the things described would be an asteroid, comet or something, hitting the glacial ice sheet of the Arctic area.

It may not have left a crater, if it hit in an ocean.

--

This would account for the huge down pour of rain for 40 days.

The vaporized water thrown into the atmosphere would fall as torrents of rain.

In addition, the earth may have already had a significant amount of water in the atmosphere already, as the earth was described as being watered by a mist. The sudden cooling due to the clouding of the atmosphere, would have turned all the mist into rain also.

Was the mist localized due to the amount of water under the earth and volcanic activity? Or was it planet wide? We don't know. But the human souls seem to have not seen a rainbow in the sky before.


--

The fountains of the deep were released at the time of the impact event.

The tribe of the human souls lived in an area where there were mountains.

The 4 rivers described as flowing from the garden of Eden show a vast amount of water coming from under the earth.

So the human souls, lived in a place where there were mountains and lot's of springs and water.

Maybe on a lake and river system, in the valleys.

When the impact event occurred, it released the spring waters and contributed to the flooding.

The valleys filled an the mountains were covered, in the local area.

--

The event was worldwide, but Noah, who lived in the valley between the mountains, was protected by the mountains, from the shock wave and many subsequent events that followed.

--

Many others did survive the flood.

Over the years they came to the human souls for food and supplies. Noah had animals and plants for food and other needs.

So Noah had the goods to build a new world.

His city became the center of commerce, Babylon.

 

[BeyondET]

we know this for a fact? Not trying to argue, just want to prove it before I make my point.

I don't think so IMO, I'm sure Noah first had to gather up the material for the task, wood, nails etc. form the wood into planks, I guess this could be considered apart of the biulding process but the actual placing of the keel then side planks etc.. A cast would probably have been likely built first to secure the structure to hold it up in place while the other parts of the ship where built. On top of that Noah probably in the beginning pondered on it from some time could have been for years.

 

[BeyondET]

(Valley of ditches) interesting topic in the bible...

 

[abcdef]

I don't think so IMO, I'm sure Noah first had to gather up the material for the task, wood, nails etc. form the wood into planks, I guess this could be considered apart of the biulding process but the actual placing of the keel then side planks etc.. A cast would probably have been likely built first to secure the structure to hold it up in place while the other parts of the ship where built. On top of that Noah probably in the beginning pondered on it from some time could have been for years.

As people lived a lot longer back then, Noah would have had time to study his environment.

Maybe even study the stars and see a comet coming, calculate it's orbit, and deduce it's earth impact time.

Kind of like Halley's comet that passes every 75 years.

 

[Dan58]

Noah was 500 years old when his sons were all born (Genesis 5:32). Noah had his 3 sons and they were all married when God commanded him to build the ark (Genesis 6:18), Shem was 98 years old post-flood (Genesis 11:10). Noah was 600 years old when the flood came (Genesis 7:6) So given the fact that his 3 sons were all born about 100 years pre-flood when Noah was 500 years old, but married adults when God commanded Noah to build the ark, it had to have been significantly less than 100 yearsto build the ark. Subtract the age of Noah's married sons from 100, and it probably was closer to 75 years.

 

[hornetguy]

.

There were many tribes on planet earth at Noah's time,

Some more "human" than others.

The tribe of the human souls, the descendants of Adam, were in a covenant relationship with the Creator.

Their souls were designed by God to be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

---

Were they aware of the the areas outside of their local situation,? I don't think so.

So the description that is given to us is only Noah's version of what happened. (localized description)

---

As far as I can tell, the only event that would cause the things described would be an asteroid, comet or something, hitting the glacial ice sheet of the Arctic area.

It may not have left a crater, if it hit in an ocean.

--

This would account for the huge down pour of rain for 40 days.

The vaporized water thrown into the atmosphere would fall as torrents of rain.

In addition, the earth may have already had a significant amount of water in the atmosphere already, as the earth was described as being watered by a mist. The sudden cooling due to the clouding of the atmosphere, would have turned all the mist into rain also.

Was the mist localized due to the amount of water under the earth and volcanic activity? Or was it planet wide? We don't know. But the human souls seem to have not seen a rainbow in the sky before.


--

The fountains of the deep were released at the time of the impact event.

The tribe of the human souls lived in an area where there were mountains.

The 4 rivers described as flowing from the garden of Eden show a vast amount of water coming from under the earth.

So the human souls, lived in a place where there were mountains and lot's of springs and water.

Maybe on a lake and river system, in the valleys.

When the impact event occurred, it released the spring waters and contributed to the flooding.

The valleys filled an the mountains were covered, in the local area.

--

The event was worldwide, but Noah, who lived in the valley between the mountains, was protected by the mountains, from the shock wave and many subsequent events that followed.

--

Many others did survive the flood.

Over the years they came to the human souls for food and supplies. Noah had animals and plants for food and other needs.

So Noah had the goods to build a new world.

His city became the center of commerce, Babylon.

That was a nice fictional story.

Just don't try to pass it off as fact... unless you are saying the word of God has lies in it.

I wouldn't want to do that.... you do whatever your conscience allows you to do.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]All flesh that [SUP][s][/SUP]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; [SUP]22 [/SUP]of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Thus He blotted out [SUP][t][/SUP]every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [SUP][u][/SUP]sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

 

[Johnny_B]

For a better English, I will use citation again:

"So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark. And the dove came to him toward evening; and behold, in her beak was a freshly picked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the water was abated from the earth. (Genesis 8:10-11)

If the ark had come to rest on the top of Mount Ararat, this would be at 17,000 foot elevation. Olive trees (and every other tree) do not grow at 17,000 feet. In fact, you will not find olive trees growing much above 5,000 feet. Therefore, we know from the Bible that the ark did not come to rest on or near the top of Mount Ararat, but probably somewhere on the foothills of the mountain."

The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must be Local

I agree that trees don't grow on mountain tops, but there is one thing that needs to be considered. The atmosphere at the time of the flood was not like the one we have now. Many believe that Genesis 1:6-8 "Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day." With the mist of Genesis 2:6 "but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground."

It's talking about a canopy that was above the heaven or firmament, that was water, with the mist caused a green house effect. That's why man didn't need meat, he only had vegetation for food. Genesis 2:9a "And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food."

God didn't say to Noah to eat of every moving thing on earth. Genesis 9:3a "Every moving things that lives shall be food for you." Because that vegetation had complete proteins in them before the flood. With that green house effect, trees could of grown in higher altitudes then they do today, but I don't think at 17,000ft. But Ararat was that high at the time of the flood."

trofimus, let me ask you this, you base a local flood on the mountain tops not being under 15 cubits of water, is that right?

 

[Magenta]

Noah was 500 years old when his sons were all born (Genesis 5:32). Noah had his 3 sons and they were all married when God commanded him to build the ark (Genesis 6:18), Shem was 98 years old post-flood (Genesis 11:10). Noah was 600 years old when the flood came (Genesis 7:6) So given the fact that his 3 sons were all born about 100 years pre-flood when Noah was 500 years old, but married adults when God commanded Noah to build the ark, it had to have been significantly less than 100 yearsto build the ark. Subtract the age of Noah's married sons from 100, and it probably was closer to 75 years.

Noah was 500 years old when Japheth was born (Gen 5:32)

Japeth was the eldest son of Noah (Gen 10:21)

Shem had his first son two years after the Flood, when he was 100 (Gen 11:10)

Shem was the youngest, but all three brothers were married at the time of the flood

 

[hornetguy]

trofimus, let me ask you this, you base a local flood on the mountain tops not being under 15 cubits of water, is that right?

And I disagree with Trof's premise that the water was only 15 cubits deep.... it says that the water rose and covered the mountaintops, and then another 15 cubits deep on top of that....

[SUP]19 [/SUP]The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains [SUP][q][/SUP]everywhere under the heavens were covered. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The water prevailed fifteen [SUP][r][/SUP]cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.

 

[Magenta]

God didn't say to Noah to eat of every moving thing on earth. Genesis 9:3a "Every moving things that lives shall be food for you." Because that vegetation had complete proteins in them before the flood. With that green house effect, trees could of grown in higher altitudes then they do today, but I don't think at 17,000ft. But Ararat was that high at the time of the flood."

God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Meat was then given as food...

 

[abcdef]

That was a nice fictional story.

Just don't try to pass it off as fact... unless you are saying the word of God has lies in it.

I wouldn't want to do that.... you do whatever your conscience allows you to do.

"All flesh" is the human souls only, Adam's descendants. (Also see Matt 24:22, describing Israel after the "flesh")

Other spirits, not human souls, were considered animals, much like how Jews look at gentiles as animals, and not human souls. Spirits, but not human souls.

----

People try to make this try to apply to the entire planet earth,

But the whole world of Noah's time was only where Noah was and what he was aware of.

That's what he wrote about.

In his story, when Noah says the whole earth, it's the earth of Noah.

In Noah's world, all the human souls that were Adam's descendants, died, along with the plants, and animals of that world.

But other tribes, that were not in a covenant relationship with God, that were considered animals (not knowing the difference between good and evil), in other parts of the planet did survive the flood. India, Africa, maybe?

They came to Babel to trade.

----

The Bible and science should never contradict, it is only people's interpretation of science or the Bible, that will contradict.

 

[Magenta]

"All flesh" is the human souls only, Adam's descendants. (Also see Matt 24:22, describing Israel after the "flesh")

Other spirits, not human souls, were considered animals, much like how Jews look at gentiles as animals, and not human souls. Spirits, but not human souls.

----

People try to make this try to apply to the entire planet earth,

But the whole world of Noah's time was only where Noah was and what he was aware of.

That's what he wrote about.

In his story, when Noah says the whole earth, it's the earth of Noah.

In Noah's world, all the human souls that were Adam's descendants, died, along with the plants, and animals of that world.

But other tribes, that were not in a covenant relationship with God, that were considered animals (not knowing the difference between good and evil), in other parts of the planet did survive the flood. India, Africa, maybe?

They came to Babel to trade.

----
The Bible and science should never contradict, it is only people's interpretation of science or the Bible, that will contradict.

Everything with the breath of life means just that.

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. (Gen 7:22, NIV)

All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. (Gen 7:21-23, NASB)