Pure goofy, Jesus described to living believers how He would return in the sky to gather them and he told them to teach that to the church. Jesus did not even address the dead in Christ at that time because there were no dead in Christ at that time. Jesus made the point that He would return in the SKY by saying that He would appear in the CLOUDS and send His angels to gather the living believers in Jesus Christ.
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Hi Blade: A 1/4 of the bible does not teach pre-trib...NONE of the bible teaches pre-trib, the whole thing was made up by John Darby around 1830. Look up PRE-TRIBULATION in an encyclopedia and it will tell you that it is the creation of John Darby around 1830, that is an historic fact. If you are finding pre-trib in the bible then you are finding an imaginary event that never existed in the first place.
All I can say to some of you folks is, enjoy it while you can because it will be over soon. For someone to get up and openly contradict Jesus Christ about something as important as His return to gather the church, and then believe they are going to float off into Heaven and meet a God that is pleased with their life, is pure nuts. The big pre-trib man of our time was openly shown on TV by another man how false the pre-trib was, this was God giving him a chance to repent before he died, as far as I know he did not repent and he died in the sin of teaching a false way to the church. This is a very serious issue, there is the way Jesus taught and there is the way Satan is teaching...how foolish to believe one can follow Satan in this area without consequences.
No, Jesus said He did not know when the catching away of the faithful would be...
Mark 13:26-37, especially verse 32
We can see now the preparation of the collapse of the current world order bringing forth the perceived need for a one world government and one world religion. Many have been calling for this for at least a hundred years now (or longer), so I'm sure Jesus can see it coming as well since He is the Lord God and all...
You cannot counter what Jesus said in these 2 verses where He indicates it's possible to miss the great tribulation... meaning we can in fact miss the bad stuff. I'm gonna split, but you can stay if you'd like. I'm sticking with Jesus on this one... well, and all other subjects as well
[FONT="]Revelation 3:10,11[/FONT][FONT="]
Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take your crown.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 21:34-36[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[/FONT]
[FONT="]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
Mark 13:26-37, especially verse 32
We can see now the preparation of the collapse of the current world order bringing forth the perceived need for a one world government and one world religion. Many have been calling for this for at least a hundred years now (or longer), so I'm sure Jesus can see it coming as well since He is the Lord God and all...
You cannot counter what Jesus said in these 2 verses where He indicates it's possible to miss the great tribulation... meaning we can in fact miss the bad stuff. I'm gonna split, but you can stay if you'd like. I'm sticking with Jesus on this one... well, and all other subjects as well
[FONT="]Revelation 3:10,11[/FONT][FONT="]
Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take your crown.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 21:34-36[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[/FONT]
[FONT="]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
Yeah... the Lord spoke of scoffers long before anyone ever heard of John Darby.
Noah warned that destruction was and they scoffed at him just like people today are scoffing at what's coming and the Lord's rescue plan. Scoffers will have to go thru the worst hell on earth that will ever take place... enjoy.
2 Peter 3:3-7
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Noah warned that destruction was and they scoffed at him just like people today are scoffing at what's coming and the Lord's rescue plan. Scoffers will have to go thru the worst hell on earth that will ever take place... enjoy.
2 Peter 3:3-7
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
G
This is one of the things that Ahwatukee and I actually agree on 100% -- that the 'resurrection' is the bodily 'translation' of believers. ( into their "glorified" bodies )
And, as an example of what I am trying to get across here -- the people who came out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ were not 'resurrected' - they were only raised from the dead. They died again later.
The only person - to date - that has been 'resurrected' - is Jesus Himself.
The word 'resurrection' - as an 'event' - does not simply mean "raised from the dead"...
In John 11:24, the 'resurrection' that Martha refers to is the exact same as that referred to in Revelation 20:5.
In Revelation 20:5, the mention of "the first resurrection" is referring to the 'translation' of believers -- not people merely being raised from the dead.
When Jesus "called him forth", Lazarus was not 'resurrected' -- he was only raised from the dead. He died again later.
There is a difference between being 'resurrected' and [ merely ] being raised from the dead.
And, as an example of what I am trying to get across here -- the people who came out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ were not 'resurrected' - they were only raised from the dead. They died again later.
The only person - to date - that has been 'resurrected' - is Jesus Himself.
The word 'resurrection' - as an 'event' - does not simply mean "raised from the dead"...
In John 11:24, the 'resurrection' that Martha refers to is the exact same as that referred to in Revelation 20:5.
In Revelation 20:5, the mention of "the first resurrection" is referring to the 'translation' of believers -- not people merely being raised from the dead.
When Jesus "called him forth", Lazarus was not 'resurrected' -- he was only raised from the dead. He died again later.
There is a difference between being 'resurrected' and [ merely ] being raised from the dead.
G
Absolutely...
Indeed -- in my experience, this is the way most pre-trib folks come across... ( especially if they are a preacher )
It is very unfortunate.
Thank you for admitting this. It speaks well of you, and honors God.
It gives me hope when 'pre-trib' folks admit that they-could-possibly-be-wrong...
( Which is extremely rare. )
Indeed -- in my experience, this is the way most pre-trib folks come across... ( especially if they are a preacher )
It is very unfortunate.
Thank you for admitting this. It speaks well of you, and honors God.
It gives me hope when 'pre-trib' folks admit that they-could-possibly-be-wrong...
( Which is extremely rare. )
Hey Rock, That is called bible manipulation. Rev 3:10 is not speaking of the rapture of the church, the idea that it is the rapture of the church is being placed on that scripture, that is called adding to scripture. If you want to know about the gathering of the church then go to the places in the bible where it actually describes the gathering of the church, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2Thess,2. By the method you used you could make the bible say anything that you wanted it to(lets hope that was not your goal).
G
You say this, yet you don't seem to understand that it is the 'unprecedented'-ness of God's Wrath that separates it from the 'Seals' and the 'Trumpets'. If you study the 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' closely enough, you should see the difference...
( Along with the fact that Revelation actually refers to the 'Vials' [ alone, as a 'group' ] as the Wrath of God. And, the fact that Jesus Himself is the one who "dishes it out"; thus, the Wrath of God is post-Second-Coming-of-Christ. )
The "opening" of seals 1-4 are past history - as well as part of Revelation prophecy.
You are not looking at God's 'timetable' correctly.
( Along with the fact that Revelation actually refers to the 'Vials' [ alone, as a 'group' ] as the Wrath of God. And, the fact that Jesus Himself is the one who "dishes it out"; thus, the Wrath of God is post-Second-Coming-of-Christ. )
The "opening" of seals 1-4 are past history - as well as part of Revelation prophecy.
You are not looking at God's 'timetable' correctly.
G
They came to life bodily, yes. They were not 'resurrected'. They died again later.
Jesus is the only person that was 'resurrected'. The others were simply raised from the dead. ( back to life )
It was not all of the OT saints. Just a "select group" that God had reason [ enough ] to raise back to life to show forth a testimony of the power of the resurrection of Christ.
Jesus is the only person that was 'resurrected'. The others were simply raised from the dead. ( back to life )
It was not all of the OT saints. Just a "select group" that God had reason [ enough ] to raise back to life to show forth a testimony of the power of the resurrection of Christ.
Hi Rock: John Darby was not a scoffer, he was a Minister who believed in a post-trib rapture of the church as everyone did for 1800 years. He was injured in a horse back riding accident and while recovering he suddenly came up with the absurd idea that Jesus was not describing to the apostles the gathering of the church but rather the saving of the nation of Israel. By doing this he gave the church a free pass out of the tribulation that Jesus said the church would go through. He then went around the country teaching his false pre-trib return of Christ and because it gave everyone a free pass it caught on and in time became accepted as true. Around 1970 Christians begin to actually study the pre-trib rapture and found it to be totally false. Problem is that some folks love it so much that they do not want to give it up, false or not.
G
You are misinterpreting Daniel 9:27.
26 - close enough
27 - not even close
( You are absolutely correct with your "certainly not Titus", "Confirm not MAKE", "7 years", and "middle of 70th week" comments / statements. )
The 'he' ( x3 ) in verse 27 is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
With the exception of the phrase "even until the consummation" in verse 27 ( which is referring to the destruction of the temple lasting until "the end of all things" - [ essentially ] the Second Coming of Christ ), every-last-detail of Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled.
26 - close enough
27 - not even close
( You are absolutely correct with your "certainly not Titus", "Confirm not MAKE", "7 years", and "middle of 70th week" comments / statements. )
The 'he' ( x3 ) in verse 27 is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
With the exception of the phrase "even until the consummation" in verse 27 ( which is referring to the destruction of the temple lasting until "the end of all things" - [ essentially ] the Second Coming of Christ ), every-last-detail of Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled.
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P
They came to life bodily, yes. They were not 'resurrected'. They died again later.
Jesus is the only person that was 'resurrected'. The others were simply raised from the dead. ( back to life )
It was not all of the OT saints. Just a "select group" that God had reason [ enough ] to raise back to life to show forth a testimony of the power of the resurrection of Christ.
Jesus is the only person that was 'resurrected'. The others were simply raised from the dead. ( back to life )
It was not all of the OT saints. Just a "select group" that God had reason [ enough ] to raise back to life to show forth a testimony of the power of the resurrection of Christ.
What will you do when you see both the dead in Christ rise and ascend BODILY then those alive BODILY ascend?
There is MAJOR stumbling on this site over no brainer concepts.