My grace is sufficient...

joaniemarie · Apr 11, 2017

I agree and if others want to think differently - they have their own free will.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. John in 1 John 3:18 says "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."

God is not getting satan to destroy people for Him and then to come afterward to save them. Our minds will not trust someone with this kind of behavior.

The Lord has said that the earth He has given into the hands of men. We have authority on this earth and if we allow something - it will be allowed - "which is on of the reasons that Jesus is called the Son of Man". He now has all authority in earth and in heaven. He is Lord of all.

Psalm 115:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Remember - "everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of truth."

Here is a great article if anyone is interested in it concerning Job. I found it funny that Job said that he only spoke what he heard about God but in Chapter 42 he said now that he didn't know God as He really was.

Is Satan God’s Sheepdog?

The Book of Job is one of the most amazing stories in the Bible, but we read it wrong two ways. First, we elevate Job into some kind of faith hero. Second, we think the devil is a sheepdog sent by the Lord to do his dirty work. This crazy notion is based on the following passage:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:8-12)

The traditional interpretation is that the Lord set Job up for disaster by dangling him in front of the devil like a marshal might dangle a convict’s shirt in front of a bloodhound.

“You smell Job, boy? You smell his good works and how much he hates evil?”
“Grrrr. Grrrr.”

“Get him, boy! Go! Rip his life apart!”

What a terrible portrayal of our heavenly Father!

According to the traditional view there is no difference between God and Satan. The devil did the deed, but God was a collaborator. God permitted it. He “allowed” it to happen.

Thankfully, this is one of those times where something is lost in translation. Let’s read those verses again in a word-for-word translation such as Green’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV):

And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil? (Job 1:8, LITV)

In other words, “Satan, why are you gunning for Job? Is it because he’s a good guy? Is it because he won’t fall for your evil schemes?”

Do you see? God isn’t setting Job up at all. He’s letting Satan know that he’s onto him. “I’m watching you, Satan.” The Lord is not unaware of the devil’s schemes.

The fact is, Satan was gunning for Job. Not only did Satan want to hurt Job, he wanted the Lord to do it! Look at what Satan says:

Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face. (Job 1:11)

The audacity of this schemer! How brazen! First the accuser tries to manipulate God: “Job only fears you because you’ve put a hedge about him and blessed him” (verses 9-10). Then he dares the Lord to strike this good man Job! Of course, the Lord isn’t about to fall for Satan’s tricks, yet verse 12 seems to suggest he does.

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power…” (Job 1:12)

At first glance it seems that God has just been conned by the devil into giving him permission to go after Job. Really? And we fall for that? Or worse, we think the Lord would fall for it?! Let’s read that verse in a literal translation:

And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah. (Job 1:12, LITV)

The Lord is not giving Satan permission; he’s stating a fact. Job was already under Satan’s thumb. Why does the Lord say that? Because of this:

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

As Tom Tompkins explains in his book, Understanding the Book of Job, God gave control of the earth to man…

The highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to mankind. (Psa 115:16)

…but in the Garden of Eden man handed control to Satan. So when the Lord says “all that is his is in your hand!” he is stating a painful fact that will ultimately cost Jesus his life.

To sum up, here are four lies that we get from misreading Job 1:

Lie #1: Satan needs God’s permission to attack us

Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission. In the Garden of Eden we opened the door to sin and have been reaping the consequences ever since.

The good news is it doesn’t have to be this way. By the grace of God the devil flees when we resist him (James 4:7). Don’t be like Job and let the thief plunder your house. Be like David who encouraged himself in the Lord and fought back (1 Sam 30:6).

Lie #2: God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

Woof! What nonsense. What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Cor 6:14)?

Lie #3: God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character

Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do. Although Job thought God was responsible for his loss, God sent Elihu to set him straight. Elihu is a picture of Jesus who went around “healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” (Acts 10:38). Jesus doesn’t give sickness; he takes it from us.

Lie #4: God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us

God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.

First Adam lost control of the planet, but last Adam took back what the devil stole. In Christ you are destined to reign like a king (Rom 5:17). But you won’t reign if you heed the lies above and follow Job instead of Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.

Unquote:

I like to use this website sometimes because it has a place at the bottom where we can ask questions and sometimes I learn from this area too for things to consider. Here is the link if anyone is interested in this subject. Enjoy.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/10/28/is-satan-gods-sheepdog/#prettyPhoto

Another excellent post Grace777! When I discovered Job was not the standard bearer for our suffering today it was a major relief to me. Most of my Christian life we were taught God dangled Job like a mouse by his tail for satan to torture. I always found this difficult to comprehend. And in the back of my mind hoped God wouldn't decide to do that to me.

Is it any wonder many believers try to hide from God and can't fully trust Him? Later I found out that Job didn't have an "Advocate" like we do. The new covenant is a very different set of circumstances with better promises because of "better blood" than the blood of bulls and goats. Things are to be seen in light of the Cross like trucker62 mentioned previously and you Grace777 mention as well many times in your various posts on CC.

Yes, of course people can read the different interpretations of the sufferings and the triumphs of Job and make up their own minds. As well as the Paul's thorn in the flesh. We all have to make those choices ourselves.
If Christians here are anything like I was., they might not even read a different interpretation about teachings they have long held in their understanding of the Bible. Many of these certain interpretations of Scripture are ones we were taught maybe by a beloved pastor or teacher we knew years ago and had great respect for.

Or maybe we lived our lives thinking an interpretation was solid and can't allow ourselves to change now. But I can't help encouraging other Christians here on CC to take into consideration we should always be learning about the love and grace of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit. That none of us has ever "arrived" where we don't need to learn something new and wonderful we didn't know before.

And as you guys have said we should look at everything we read in the Bible from the perspective of the Cross of Jesus Christ. The new covenant has amazing promises that involve our Advocate being for us and not against us.

BeyondET · Apr 11, 2017

truthhurts said:

Faith is for man, for God Trust His own knowing.

truthhurts · Apr 11, 2017

BeyondET said:

If this were true, then everyone would be the same in the Body and that is not the case...God has trust in all, but faith in a few...

God has to have faith that you will not crumble when the battle gets tough....

joaniemarie · Apr 11, 2017

truthhurts said:

The hardest thing to learn was to take from God because of Jesus. It was easier in many ways to do for myself as I always had done because that is what I knew how to do. After many years I was experienced. I knew how to do for myself and how to do for others in my own strength.

But learning how to let Jesus be Jesus was another thing. Let Jesus be the Savior and save me., let Jesus be the Lover and love me., Let Jesus be the Provider to provide for me., Let Jesus be the Healer and heal me.

When we are used to doing those things for ourselves it is not possible to turn over the reins. (unless Divinely inspired)

I disagree with you about stamina. We humans have tons of stamina spurred on by human pride that enables us to go a long way in life. Even if it means going down the tubes., we will if it "seems" to allow us to keep our pride. No wonder God hates the pride of life.

I've discovered the refining fire is getting rid of the habits of the flesh that got us through in life. We are supposed to "recon" ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. That means once and for all get a hold of the fact.....recon remember we are dead to sin and alive to God.

We are no longer guilty before God because of what Jesus has done on our behalf. We need to recon that to be true and move forward in that truth each day. It's because of Him that we live and move and have our being. Without Him we can do nothing. Keeping a set of rules is not what gives us God's approval.

1 Cor.15:56

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: [SUP]57 [/SUP]but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]58 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not [SUP][a][/SUP]vain in the Lord.

When we abide on the Vine the fruits of the Spirit will come. The steadfast unmoveable always abounding in the work of the Lord comes only when we abide on the Vine. It won't come when we try to do it ourselves. Our labor will not be in vain when we do it by abiding. Learn to be a good receiver who abides. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and we are the sheep of His pasture. Psalm 23

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. Abiding/acknowledging/resting When we work, He rests. When we rest, He works. And He tells us our work is to rest Hebrews 4

truthhurts · Apr 11, 2017

joaniemarie said:

The hardest thing to learn was to take from God because of Jesus. It was easier in many ways to do for myself as I always had done because that is what I knew how to do. After many years I was experienced. I knew how to do for myself and how to do for others in my own strength.

But learning how to let Jesus be Jesus was another thing. Let Jesus be the Savior and save me., let Jesus be the Lover and love me., Let Jesus be the Provider to provide for me., Let Jesus be the Healer and heal me.

When we are used to doing those things for ourselves it is not possible to turn over the reins. (unless Divinely inspired)

I disagree with you about stamina. We humans have tons of stamina spurred on by human pride that enables us to go a long way in life. Even if it means going down the tubes., we will if it "seems" to allow us to keep our pride. No wonder God hates the pride of life.

I've discovered the refining fire is getting rid of the habits of the flesh that got us through in life. We are supposed to "recon" ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. That means once and for all get a hold of the fact.....recon remember we are dead to sin and alive to God.

We are no longer guilty before God because of what Jesus has done on our behalf. We need to recon that to be true and move forward in that truth each day. It's because of Him that we live and move and have our being. Without Him we can do nothing. Keeping a set of rules is not what gives us God's approval.

1 Cor.15:56

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: [SUP]57 [/SUP]but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]58 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not [SUP][a][/SUP]vain in the Lord.

When we abide on the Vine the fruits of the Spirit will come. The steadfast unmoveable always abounding in the work of the Lord comes only when we abide on the Vine. It won't come when we try to do it ourselves. Our labor will not be in vain when we do it by abiding. Learn to be a good receiver who abides. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and we are the sheep of His pasture. Psalm 23

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. Abiding/acknowledging/resting When we work, He rests. When we rest, He works. And He tells us our work is to rest Hebrews 4

The whole truth just goes right over your head....

joaniemarie · Apr 11, 2017

truthhurts said:

And I could say the same about you.

oyster67 · Apr 11, 2017

BeyondET said:

God's omniscience and transcendence of time itself is such a comforting thing to think upon.

oyster67 · Apr 11, 2017

mj007 said:

Some people find comfort in their sickness, and if it wasn't for their belief system, coping strategy, their world would fall apart. I understand that there are two choices, one is accept your sickness and become comfortable with it, but the way to heal is 'to accept it' and give it up to God (what people do is they reject it, give it up to God, and wonder why nothing happens). I believe God can heal anyone and anything, and trying to say God makes us sick for a reason, is a cop-out for even attempting to find a way out. And I believe sickness is NOT of God's doing. Since losing my mum I was always interested in what healing actually was. I don't like seeing people suffer. To me God is healing, as much as God is love, God is life, and without life you are as rigid as a stone.

So maybe the purpose of some people, or what they feel is their purpose, a purpose they believe God gave them, is for them to suffer and that is what they accept. To suffer, under the grace of God. But personally I'm not sure of the purpose, this seems like a coping strategy. And while many will gather in sympathy, it doesn't really teach empathy which is what is important.

If we could see what God sees, then we would know that it is all just a matter of time. Paul's thorn thingy is all better now

Angela53510 · Apr 11, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Wow! So much bad theology, and interpretation of this important passage in Scripture. Reading through, I thought I would just post this again, since it is really the only correct thing on this thread! Simply because it is Scripture.

I'm going post part of the passage so it is in context, and then deal with 2 Cor. 9:7, specifically, because some very wrong things were said about it. Then, maybe deal with the passage in another post!

"For even if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I would be telling the truth, but I refrain from this so that no one may regard me beyond what he sees in me or what he hears from me, 7 even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant. 8 I asked the Lord three times about this, that it would depart from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me. 10 Therefore I am content with weaknesses, with insults, with troubles, with persecutions and difficulties for the sake of Christ, for whenever I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:6-10 NET

"though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:6-20 ESV

In verses 7-8, we are given 6 more things about the thorn:

1. It was given so that the apostle wold not become consumed with self-importance
2. It was given to Paul (by the Lord)
3. It was a thorn "in the flesh" ([FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]σαρκί - dative case, meaning the physical body!)
[/FONT]4. It was a messenger of Satan
5. It "beat" him repeatedly
6. Paul pleaded three times that it would be taken away.

First, I want to end the discussion on the actual translation of the Greek words. There was some discussion of the word "exalted" which the NET translates as "arrogant" and other versions translate as "conceited." In fact, if you know both English and Greek, I would say that all the translations are pretty accurate, just shades of the same thing.

"καὶ τῇ ὑπερβολῇ τῶν ἀποκαλύψεων. διὸ ἵνα μὴ ὑπεραίρωμαι, ἐδόθη μοι σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί, ἄγγελος Σατανᾶ, ἵνα με κολαφίζῃ, ἵνα μὴ ὑπεραίρωμαι." 2 Cor. 12:7 Greek

The bolded words above ὑπερβολῇ and ὑπεραίρωμαι are the ones in question. One really does need to go to the Greek, to understand why all the various translations are [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]right.
[/FONT]
Hyperbole, or [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ὑπερβολῇ is a feminine noun, which is an instrumental dative. This is the cause which indicates the basis for an action. The cause, is that the revelation, was not ordinary, it was to excess, or had an extraordinary quality, according to Bauer.
[/FONT]
So Paul has an amazing vision at the beginning of 2 Cor. 12, and the Lord, who knows more than us, felt it would go to Paul's head, if God did not allow something to counter the extraordinary extent of the revelation.

Next, the word hyperairomai, [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ὑπεραίρωμαι[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] is a verb which is the Present Subjunctive Middle, 1st person singular. Bauer, lists it in the indicative active, but in actual fact, in each of the 3 times it appears in the NT (2 in verse 7) it appears only in the Middle tense. Now the Middle is a difficult tense, because we do not have this in English. And scholarly research right now is in a real upheaval over the Middle Tense.
[/FONT]
Basically, the Middle means something you do to yourself. God doesn't do it to you, Satan doesn't do it to you, you do it to yourself. It is also in the Subjunctive mood, which is a verb that expresses possibility, probability or exhortation. It has NO time significance, as it is non-Indicative, it's only significance is that of aspect. Translating a subjunctive verb, one might use "may," or "might."

Further, the definition in Bauer is "to have an undue sense of one's self importance, rise up, exalt oneself." I would have to say the short word for "have an undue sense of one's self importance" means point blank, "conceited!" (Although arrogant would certainly do!) No ifs, ands or buts. (I was pretty excited to see this word, as I was just memorizing it this morning for my Greek final, because the 3rd time it pops up in the NT is 2 Thess. 2:4!)

So God was worried that Paul MIGHT become conceited, maybe an arrogant braggart, with these visions going to his head. That is the scenario. That is the background to the rest of the passage.

Angela53510 · Apr 11, 2017

Rockrz said:

Sorry to come in so late in the thread, when the topic seems to have shifted. But this OP so distorts the Word of God, it is frankly so totally made up, that I really need to deal with it!

Paul has been given this thorn in the flesh, because there is the possibility or chance, that he may become conceited. This really is not about God making him conceited, but rather the probability that Paul may let the revelations go to his head. Personally, I think this is a pretty open and honest confession, which Paul makes late in his life. 2 Cor. was written from Rome, while Paul was under arrest. He is looking back and reflecting on his ministry and life, and the good things God has done for him.

This is confirmed if we go back to the real beginning of Paul's speech which is 2 Cor. 11:16-30, where Paul focuses on trials experienced in his missionary activities. These include a very long recitation of some of the actual things that happened to him.

"Are they servants of Christ? (I am talking like I am out of my mind!) I am even more so: with much greater labors, with far more imprisonments, with more severe beatings, facing death many times. 24 Five times I received from the Jews forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with a rod. Once I received a stoning. Three times I suffered shipwreck. A night and a day I spent adrift in the open sea. 26 I have been on journeys many times, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own countrymen, in dangers from Gentiles, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers from false brothers, 27 in hard work and toil, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, many times without food, in cold and without enough clothing. 28 Apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxious concern for all the churches." 2 Cor. 11:23-28 NET

That is a long and serious list of trials. In the second part of this speech in 2 Cor. 11:30-12:10, which contains the partial verse which is the title of this thread. Ironically, the OP actually claims to be about the context of 2 Cor. 12:9, and his version of that, is to claim "the devil made me do it!" and then move onto a bunch of other cobbled together verses.

This is NOT exegesis!! This is reading into the text, juxtaposing verses, chapters and books to bring out the agenda of the OP. Context, is looking at all the verses around the verse in question, and seeing what they are saying! Not picking on one part of one verse, and then adding a bunch of really unrelated verses to the mix.

One commentary, by George Guthrie, an amazing Biblical/Greek scholar, with a heart for people to read the bible for themselves and study it starts this whole section at 2 Cor. 11:1.

(He wrote a book and produced a video called "Read the Bible for Life"
https://www.amazon.com/Read-Bible-Life-Understanding-Living/dp/0805464549)

He says, "It is a speech about 'boasting' which many now refer to as "The Fool's Speech!" Why did it get that name? Because it is a "daring countercultural exercise," for Paul almost certainly boasts in a way that runs counter to the emphases in his opponents rhetoric. Specifically, he is boasting about his trials, for although there was a precedent in Greco-Roman oratory, this kind of boasting did not fit the Sophists triumphal rhetoric of successful "power" leadership. (2 Cor. 10"10; 11:6); nor the cultural expectations of high social status in Corinth. (Remember, this book was written to the Corinthians!)

There was a gaping divide between Paul's vision of the Christian minister as a "suffering servant" (like Jesus!) and the interloper's view of ministry as triumphal, strong armed leadership; this gap finds clear expression in Paul's foolish speech. Here, we have a ruthless parody of the pretensions of his opponents.

As for the thorn, Paul chose to make it anonymous. It could be a physical illness, esp. because of the use of the word sarx - σάρξ. It could also be a psychological malady, including the anxiety he mentions in 11:28

"And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches." 2 Cor. 11:28 ESV

Or it could be the opposition he is suffering, and has suffered at the hands of his opponents, including examples like Alexander the coppersmith in Acts 19:33, or 1 Tim. 1:20 or the more specific reference in 2 Tim. 4:14

All these are possible, although a physical ailment or opposition are more probable. And since Paul did not want his readers to know what the thorn was, it is wrong to speculate!

The phrase "My grace is sufficient" is in fact, God's divine answer to Paul's request to have the thorn removed. In verse 9, God speaks of his grace, his "enabling" to deal with the thorn, as "entirely sufficient" (arkei Ἀρκεῖ) for you or son, a dative of advantage! The verb's placement at the beginning of God's answer is for emphasis. "Completely" adequate. Thus, God told Paul in effect, "You do not really need the thorn removed! All you need is my grace to deal with it!

God goes onto explain (γὰρ - gar or for) why the thorn needs to stay in place: "power is perfected in weakness." The power manifested in Paul's ministry comes from God. So the principle that "power is perfected in weakness" has to do with God's power manifested in Paul's ministry.

It was certainly NOT, as claimed in Rockyrz's OP:

Say what??? Seriously, this is beyond eisegesis and basically a totally made up Word Faith piece of utter nonsense. Or maybe just a made up Rocky piece of garbage. But then we certainly can expect this time of terrible insight from Word Faith people as we have come to see time and again in this Forum and elsewhere.

In fact, Guthrie notes that when Paul talks about "weakness" in the broader sense, the subject is almost exclusively dealt with in the Fool's Speech in 2 Cor. 11 and 12, and it seems clear that the various trials he went through are what he had in mind. He is not talking about a weakness in terms of lack of ministry skill or ineptitude of some sort. Plus, the thorn refers to the trials, experiences in the context of on-going ministry. He is reflecting that in spite of the thorn, which might have been the devil opposing him, he was incredibly successful in his ministry of not only establishing churches, but in writing vital parts of the NT, and foundational theology for the entire church.

It is NOT, again, talking about Paul learning a lesson, as the OP writes, but rather that the lesson was:

"I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ might take up residence in me." 2 Cor. 12:9b

The OP claims, without so much as a supporting verse, that Paul did receive deliverance.

He then quotes first the original discussion in a thread without a link, and then Col. 1:13, and Eph. 1:19-21, which is the underpinning of his philosophy, but doesn't address the actual passage, the verses, the word usage, etc, etc. He is reading INTO the text that which is NOT there.

I cannot emphasize this enough! The OP is basically making up things, coming from his personal viewpoint, rather than properly dealing with the passage, which is a Fool's Speech. God does NOT deliver Paul from his thorn, not even after Paul asks three times. That is what Paul says in this passage which was the last letter Paul wrote. If he had been delivered from the thorn, this would have been the time to mention it. God does use this thorn to his own purposes, which are that Paul would be able to boast in his weaknesses, not his own personal power and strength.

Paul proclaims that the onerous experiences he has described in his speech, can be actually viewed as a delight, because of their outcome! How do I get that, you ask? Well, KJV and Holman's both get this right.

"So I take pleasure in weaknesses, insults, catastrophes, persecutions, and in pressures, because of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:10 HCSB

"Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2 Cor. 12:10 KJV

"διὸ εὐδοκῶ ἐν ἀσθενείαις, ἐν ὕβρεσιν, ἐν ἀνάγκαις, ἐν διωγμοῖς [m]καὶ στενοχωρίαις, ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ· ὅταν γὰρ ἀσθενῶ, τότε δυνατός εἰμι." 2 Cor. 12:10 Greek

The word εὐδοκῶ or eudoko in verse 9, means "to take pleasure in." It can mean "be content," but I think Paul is saying something much stronger here! Paul is delighting, taking pleasure in his weaknesses so Christ's power might be at home, ἐπισκηνώσῃ episkenose, meaning "to take up residence, reside."

Paul rests content or even delights in his weaknesses so Christ's power might be in him! Wow! A far cry from the OP and his hideous Scripture twisting, who says:

This is pure and adulterated bunk! It is exactly how heresy flourishes. It is also so detrimental to our sanctification and growth in God, when instead of receiving the message that God works well in our weaknesses, that no, we do not need to be delivered from our weaknesses, but rather God can and will use all those seemingly bad things in our lives to change us, use us and that God would be magnified and glorified. This text is NOT about us! It is about the power of God to work in our hearts and lives BECAUSE we are weak, not because we were delivered from it, but because we accept the message that we live in a fallen world, and our sanctification is not complete, and will not be complete until we are glorified on Judgement Day.

That is what the Bible says! It does not say Paul was delivered from his weakness, but instead, that he boasted in his weaknesses, because God was able to live powerfully within him. What a sad state that if we are not perfectly delivered of every illness, problem, trial, it implies we are not walking in everything God has for us if Word Faith is true! But praise be to God, Word Faith is not just wrong, but willfully lying to people because it is indeed a "doctrine of demons." (1 Tim. 4:1) We are walking with God and growing because God choses to allow us to keep those things, that HE might be glorified.

I could rip that OP to pieces, each and every line, from a Biblical point of view, but I am really not up for dealing with a thief and a liar, who twists Scripture to his own evil devices. But I do want to comment on this nonsense, before I end this very LONG post!

First, Mark 16:9-21 is the most highly disputed passage in the Bible. I have spoken on this before, suffice it to say, it is completely out of character with Mark's writings, uses a completely different vocabulary, grammar and syntax than the rest of Mark, to say nothing of the fact that it does NOT appear in the earliest manuscripts.

If you want to believe it is part of the Bible, that is your choice, but NEVER use it as an out of context text proof. In addition, I think it hilarious that the OP is lecturing on Paul getting delivered from his demon, and then quoting James! Why not quote Paul?? He certainly has lots and lots to offer. Oh right! It is because Paul was NOT delivered! Which kind of breaks the whole rotten foundation of Word Faith to pieces!

Finally, this entire passage, and verse 12:9 in particular is completely consistent with the rest of Scripture. God does not allow Paul to write untruths and then let it be part of the inspired canon. God's grace is not only sufficient, it is sufficient in our weaknesses! God's power is GREATER in our weaknesses! Paul takes those weaknesses to his grave!

What I see is a shyster, with no knowledge of Greek, hermeneutics, context or interpretation and certainly NOT how to correctly divide the Word. I find a man who is in bed with Satan, by twisting the word of God puts together an OP which is supposed to be rebuking someone, when in fact, the entire interpretion he gives is based on bad, bad, exegesis. I see someone who mocks and ridicules people using the Word of God as his weapon. I see someone who IS a trick of Satan, to deceive in the elect! (Matt 24:24)

Angela53510 · Apr 11, 2017

And to finish off!

I pray people will be warned about the evil, the tricks and lies this OP is trying to put forward as Biblical. He has been doing this since the moment he joined, including coming into the Prayer Request forum, and not praying for my request, but rather mocking and ridiculing me over and over. Fortunately, I wasn't hurt in the slightest, because I am armed with the truth of the Word, and it is NOT Word Faith.

Those of you who know me, know that I have been Scripturally fighting Word Faith for a long time in this Forum. This is not about his attacks on me, but rather, what will he do to the next person in the Prayer Request forum, who doesn't have the training and knowledge that God has been gracious enough to allow me to have. I am always concerned when lies come into this forum, and that they need to be dealt with head on. Word Faith and some its adherents who have morphed even further, is a destructive and damaging lie, which hurts and damages people's faith in God. Ironic, since this heresy claims to be about "Faith," when in fact, it is the exact opposite. It is about a philosophy which is rigid, arrogant and self righteous, which is can be thoroughly disproven by anyone with the time and energy to read about it, and simply compare it to the Bible. Doctrine of demons, indeed!

I'll close with my favourite verses, which God has used to give me strength, as I suffer through various trials and weaknesses, which Paul also wrote:

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us!" Romans 5:3-5.

zone · Apr 11, 2017

Angela53510 said:

thanks for all your work Angela!
great post.

PennEd · Apr 11, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Another excellent post Grace777! When I discovered Job was not the standard bearer for our suffering today it was a major relief to me. Most of my Christian life we were taught God dangled Job like a mouse by his tail for satan to torture. I always found this difficult to comprehend. And in the back of my mind hoped God wouldn't decide to do that to me.

Is it any wonder many believers try to hide from God and can't fully trust Him? Later I found out that Job didn't have an "Advocate" like we do. The new covenant is a very different set of circumstances with better promises because of "better blood" than the blood of bulls and goats. Things are to be seen in light of the Cross like trucker62 mentioned previously and you Grace777 mention as well many times in your various posts on CC.

Yes, of course people can read the different interpretations of the sufferings and the triumphs of Job and make up their own minds. As well as the Paul's thorn in the flesh. We all have to make those choices ourselves.
If Christians here are anything like I was., they might not even read a different interpretation about teachings they have long held in their understanding of the Bible. Many of these certain interpretations of Scripture are ones we were taught maybe by a beloved pastor or teacher we knew years ago and had great respect for.

Or maybe we lived our lives thinking an interpretation was solid and can't allow ourselves to change now. But I can't help encouraging other Christians here on CC to take into consideration we should always be learning about the love and grace of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit. That none of us has ever "arrived" where we don't need to learn something new and wonderful we didn't know before.

And as you guys have said we should look at everything we read in the Bible from the perspective of the Cross of Jesus Christ. The new covenant has amazing promises that involve our Advocate being for us and not against us.

I believe Job had, and knew he had, an advocate:
Job 19: 25-27

25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

wsblind · Apr 11, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Anyone who has been saved knows the Lord Jesus Christ. Job, knew his Savior and knew he had an Advocate for him. Job knew his redeemer.

The Lord Jesus Christ Christ ALLOWS satan to test us. Satan, in his own twisted mind is trying to thwart Gods plan, and God is using him to advance His plan.

Use Paul for a example. Satan used a demon/fallen angel to thwart Pauls Gospel message. But God used that to stop Paul from becoming arrogant.

Satan says," I will attack Paul and STOP his Gospel message." And God allows it, because he knows Paul will become arrogant when all his "followers" will say " I am from Paul."

Rockrz · Apr 11, 2017

If that were true, WHY do you choose to not believe healing is part of what Jesus provided in His death, burial, and resurrection?

God is very clear about this in His Word... it all comes down to how much of God's Word we want to believe.

Here's what God says on health / healing:

[FONT=&quot]Romans 8:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But IF the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (allowed to live in us), He that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall also quicken (energize, make alive) your mortal body by His Spirit that lives in you. (see 2 Corinthians 3:17 – where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, freedom!)

1 Peter 2:24
Jesus carried our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Matthew 8:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isaiah 53:4, 5
Jesus has carried our grief (pain, anxiety, calamity, disease, sickness), and carried our sorrows (anguish, affliction, feelings of pain, sadness and sorrow): yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted....but He was wounded (to wound, to break, be slain or killed) for our transgressions, He was bruised (crush, destroy, oppress, to collapse) for our iniquities: the punishment (violence, rebuke) of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (He took our wounds, so we could take his wholeness & health in every area of life)

Proverbs 4:20-23
Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh....keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it flow the forces of life.

James 5:15
The prayer of faith shall save the sick (from being sick!)

Exodus 15:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will not put any diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

Exodus 23:24-26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and destroy their images.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And you shall serve Adonai your God, and He shall bless your food and drink; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: and you will live out the full span of your lives.

But, if you want to let 'ol slewfoot walk all over you by putting things on you that Jesus paid for... that's what you will have.[/FONT]

Grace777x70 · Apr 12, 2017

Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulations. We have the world, the flesh and the devil. All are enemies which Christ has defeated. All of these attacks are not from God but what these attacks do ( including Paul's torn in the flesh ) is bring out what is already in us.

It's like fire being added to silver and the real silver is what is left over. It doesn't create the silver - it reveals it for what it truly is.

Are we relying on our own self-efforts or God's grace?

I will say that in scripture the word "flesh" is also used in the context of self-effort and relying on our own ways of thinking and living apart from the life of God as our source. There is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh but it is still all flesh.

We all have our beliefs and we all can use scripture to "prove" these beliefs. In reality what we are doing is giving our interpretation of things and if we can find people that believe what we do - then we can use them as a "proof source".

Personally I don't believe for a minute that God sends us sickness to teach us things. It's anti-Christ in it's core belief. Jesus showed the complete opposite and He is the exact representation of the character/nature and will of the Father to us. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus didn't work against His Father.

Our hearts are not wired to believe in a "god" like that - that sends sicknesses to "teach" us things or "to refine us". He uses His words of life. We would throw people in jail for that sort of behavior. Where do we get this sense of moral outrage? From God Himself - it originates from our spirit where Christ dwells knows that is not the true character of God.

God can use any attacks to reveal His love for us and can bring good from out of the mess that was sent to destroy us but He is not the author of those attacks.

I firmly believe when we stand before our loving Father we are going to be appalled at the things we thought He was like.

BeyondET · Apr 12, 2017

Stephen63 said:

2 Corinthians 12:7

New International Version
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

New Living Translation
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

English Standard Version
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Berean Study Bible
or with these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Berean Literal Bible
and the surpassingness of the revelations. Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited.

New American Standard Bible
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!

King James Bible
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.

International Standard Version
To keep me from becoming conceited because of the exceptional nature of these revelations, a thorn was given to me and placed in my body. It was Satan's messenger to keep on tormenting me so that I would not become conceited.

I'm afraid you're incorrect.

Reason I've been liking Murdock trans of Aramiac Peshito, I like the wording...

07 And, that I might not be uplifted by the excellency of the revelations, there was imparted to me a thorn in my flesh, the angel of Satan, to buffet me, that I might not be uplifted.

BeyondET · Apr 12, 2017

2 Cor 12

08 Respecting this, I thrice besought my Lord, that it might depart from me.
09 And he said to me, My grace is sufficient for thee; for my power is perfected in weakness. Gladly, therefore, will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of the Messiah may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I have pleasure in infirmities, in reproach, in afflictions, in persecutions, in distresses, which are for the Messiah's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Grandpa · Apr 12, 2017

I think if you were going to write a book about the Gospel, this could be the first sentence of the opening paragraph;

[FONT=&quot]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

That would be the opening statement. Then everything else would expound on this.

Do you remember that sunday school song, Jesus Loves Me?

Little ones to Him belong,
they are weak but He is Strong...

Its funny how I generalized all this when I was younger. Jesus loves everyone, I thought. Everyone is called and everyone can be saved.

When I became older the Lord did a bunch of awesome things to show me that He loves me, specifically. I am called and I am saved, specifically. I'm not just part of the giant crowd that He Loves and Saves. I am a specific, loved and saved individual who happens to be with a bunch of other specific loved and saved individuals.

I wonder if that makes sense to anyone. Its a really important point for me. Its where a person goes from an intellectual knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ to a relationship knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. There's nothing that compares to or can replace this relationship knowledge.[/FONT]

Grace777x70 · Apr 12, 2017

Grandpa said:

I think if you were going to write a book about the Gospel, this could be the first sentence of the opening paragraph;

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

That would be the opening statement. Then everything else would expound on this.

Do you remember that sunday school song, Jesus Loves Me?

Little ones to Him belong,
they are weak but He is Strong...

Its funny how I generalized all this when I was younger. Jesus loves everyone, I thought. Everyone is called and everyone can be saved.

When I became older the Lord did a bunch of awesome things to show me that He loves me, specifically. I am called and I am saved, specifically. I'm not just part of the giant crowd that He Loves and Saves. I am a specific, loved and saved individual who happens to be with a bunch of other specific loved and saved individuals.

I wonder if that makes sense to anyone. Its a really important point for me. Its where a person goes from an intellectual knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ to a relationship knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. There's nothing that compares to or can replace this relationship knowledge.

I agree...and we can see this truth in John's writings. The statement "The disciple whom Jesus loved." is only found in John's own writing and he is describing himself. He knew of Jesus personal love for John himself.

It is vital for proper growth in the Lord to know that He loves "me" personally and dearly and fiercely.

My grace is sufficient...

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