SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

[John146]

You are assuming I do not understand that, I do, my debate is that you feel there is nothing worth while for us in the 5 chapters, so if that is true, just rip all the pages out of your Bible

I apologize if it came across as if we do not need to study the book of James. The book of James has some valuable lessons to be learned. For instance, the tongue is like a fire and cannot be tamed. I need that lesson. That lesson transcends all dispensations. I rightly divide the word of truth like we are commanded in order to be right doctrinally. What is doctrine? It is direct teaching that the audience is to heed and obey. It is literal teaching to the intended audience. To whom is the writer speaking to. To whom does the doctrine apply?

 

[preacher4truth]

In James 5, all of the rich men are damned. There are no Christian rich men in James. See also 1:11 and 2:6-7. The context is not the Church Age at all but the "coming of the Lord." In the tribulation, the rich condemn the just. A man cannot get riches unless he takes the mark of Satan. No one can buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

Dude, you seriously need to log off and get someone to help you understand Scripture. Your wresting of Scripture is remarkable and shows a profound misunderstanding of even rudimentary teachings.

 

[preacher4truth]

I rightly divide the word of truth like we are commanded in order to be right doctrinally

Um. No you don't.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Can you name one person in CC who ever has said this? I have been here for many years, and never heard anyone tell anyone this sort of thing.. And if I did, I would be on them just as hard as I am on the egalist.




This is part of discipleship. It is part of being in the body as we help each other. It is part of spiritual growth, And I would hope you would. Everyone I know would.. I would hope




Again, Who would say such a thing? The only people I hear even mention it are the legalistic person who is trying to attack grace oriented people and say this is what they believe. I have never heard one grace oriented person say this is how they would act, or tell anyone who is a child of God.

I have heard many people insist that abiding is not necessary. They say it would be beneficial in this life but is not necessary and has nothing to do with eternal life. They state that the only trusting necessary to eternal life is trusting that they will live forever (salvation), and that trusting in and believing to be true all His other words is not going to have any bearing on ones eternal state. I believe this is a deal to cheat death that cannot stand. It is saying that one must only believe they will live forever but don't have to believe anything else He has said. So it is teaching that you are saved by Gods' kindness through trusting you will live forever, but then dumping the trusting, continued trusting, abiding, growing in trust, remaining in trust to the end. This means I can go with the world on virtually everything. I can worry and slave over amassing a stockpile of money to keep me safe in old age instead of trusting every day what He has said. He wouldn't let Israel do that in the desert but somehow I think I can do it and not be cut off as they were for their subsequent unbelief and mistrust? I don't dare do that. We are repeating their same mistake. They trusted Him to save them and so they stepped out into the sea. Then they stopped trusting Him and refused to trust Him on everything else, like daily provision. The apostle addresses this when he says that God saved Israel but then later became displeased with them. The apostle specifically says this: Who did God later become displeased with and refuse them entrance into the place He had prepared for them? Wasn't it those He saved? Yes, it was those He saved. So you see they failed to enter the rest He had prepared for them because of subsequent unbelief. So this is why we are told to take care that our own hearts don't become evil and untrusting as theirs did. It was not some sort of unspecified rewards that they lost. They were refused entrance into His rest. It's one dang thing He demands of us - trust. Would any of the Israelites have entered His rest if they said: but...I trusted You and stepped out into the sea and You saved me and now You have to give me entrance into Your rest even though it's the only thing I trusted You for and I have not remained in trust or grown in trust in a single other thing? I trusted You for saving so now you have to give me entrance. The story is there for us. Can we dare use it to insist that the Blood covers unbelief? The Blood covers our sin. Now go and sin no more. Anything that is not of belief and trust is sin. And yet, His mercy begins anew each morning. So why strain vociferously for not needing that mercy any more because you have in your possession something that is yours apart from trust? You stumble in your trust, in your race of trust, you repent of your lack of trust and plead for what you need in your poverty of spirit and He is merciful and this even 70x7. I don't understand why that is not enough but argument must be made that the race of trust is only for some sort of unspecified rewards but not a race that we must run to the end. I don't want to gamble and be barely saved as if through fire. What if I don't gauge it accurately? I want to run my race to win. I don't care about any reward but Him. I can't be enticed by some kind of other unspecified reward but no one knows what that reward is. He is my reward. I race to trust more and more. I don't take it lightly. When He shows me some unbelief and mistrust in myself, I set to praying for what I need. I don't say: I'm rich and in need of nothing. I pray in my poverty for what I need.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

James and the other Apostles all saw the true Christian church as the continuation of Israel. The Gentiles who had become Christians had in their view joined the 12 tribes (Eph 2.11 onward; 1 Peter 2.9). As incidentally had the proselytes in the Old Testament. It is simply that you do not believe what the Scriptures actually teach.

Incidentally 'the Jews' were a conglomerate body many of whom were not descendants of the 12 tribes. Thus the Edomites who were converted by force under Hyrcanus, and the Galilean Gentiles under Aristobulus, were all looked on as Jews and as 'members of the 12 tribes', as were many who became Israelites like Uriah the Hittite.. If you knew your Jewish history you would know this.

Indeed that is why the Judaists demanded that all Christian be circumcised, because they saw them as becoming Jews. Paul did not argue against that. What he claimed was that they were circumcised in Christ (Col 2).

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.

That's not what Paul said. He knew there were Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ (e.g. Rom 1.16). What he said was that there was no longer a difference between them in God's eyes, they were all one in Christ Jesus, that is, the true Israel..

Thanks for the poke about not believing what Scripture says. I'm one of the few ones on this board who actually believe they hold Scripture in their hands.

Practically the whole board believe this. You may have it in your hands but you neither read it properly nor seemingly have it in your heart. You miss the whole point with your fancy interpretations.,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have heard many people insist that abiding is not necessary. They say it would be beneficial in this life but is not necessary and has nothing to do with eternal life. They state that the only trusting necessary to eternal life is trusting that they will live forever (salvation), and that trusting in and believing to be true all His other words is not going to have any bearing on ones eternal state. I believe this is a deal to cheat death that cannot stand. It is saying that one must only believe they will live forever but don't have to believe anything else He has said. So it is teaching that you are saved by Gods' kindness through trusting you will live forever, but then dumping the trusting, continued trusting, abiding, growing in trust, remaining in trust to the end. This means I can go with the world on virtually everything. I can worry and slave over amassing a stockpile of money to keep me safe in old age instead of trusting every day what He has said. He wouldn't let Israel do that in the desert but somehow I think I can do it and not be cut off as they were for their subsequent unbelief and mistrust? I don't dare do that. We are repeating their same mistake. They trusted Him to save them and so they stepped out into the sea. Then they stopped trusting Him and refused to trust Him on everything else, like daily provision. The apostle addresses this when he says that God saved Israel but then later became displeased with them. The apostle specifically says this: Who did God later become displeased with and refuse them entrance into the place He had prepared for them? Wasn't it those He saved? Yes, it was those He saved. So you see they failed to enter the rest He had prepared for them because of subsequent unbelief. So this is why we are told to take care that our own hearts don't become evil and untrusting as theirs did. It was not some sort of unspecified rewards that they lost. They were refused entrance into His rest. It's one dang thing He demands of us - trust. Would any of the Israelites have entered His rest if they said: but...I trusted You and stepped out into the sea and You saved me and now You have to give me entrance into Your rest even though it's the only thing I trusted You for and I have not remained in trust or grown in trust in a single other thing? I trusted You for saving so now you have to give me entrance. The story is there for us. Can we dare use it to insist that the Blood covers unbelief? The Blood covers our sin. Now go and sin no more. Anything that is not of belief and trust is sin. And yet, His mercy begins anew each morning. So why strain vociferously for not needing that mercy any more because you have in your possession something that is yours apart from trust? You stumble in your trust, in your race of trust, you repent of your lack of trust and plead for what you need in your poverty of spirit and He is merciful and this even 70x7. I don't understand why that is not enough but argument must be made that the race of trust is only for some sort of unspecified rewards but not a race that we must run to the end. I don't want to gamble and be barely saved as if through fire. What if I don't gauge it accurately? I want to run my race to win. I don't care about any reward but Him. I can't be enticed by some kind of other unspecified reward but no one knows what that reward is. He is my reward. I race to trust more and more. I don't take it lightly. When He shows me some unbelief and mistrust in myself, I set to praying for what I need. I don't say: I'm rich and in need of nothing. I pray in my poverty for what I need.

Can you name one person who says it is not necessary to trust God in areas of your life after you are saved, that we can just sit and do nothing?

Just one person, I would like to talk to them.

 

[John146]

Dude, you seriously need to log off and get someone to help you understand Scripture. Your wresting of Scripture is remarkable and shows a profound misunderstanding of even rudimentary teachings.

Thank you for your opinion. By the way, do you practice the following literally?:

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

The prayer of the elders shall save the sick. Not might, but shall save the sick. On top of that, the prayer of the elders will forgive the sins of the sick. Private interpret if you want to, but I take it as literal teaching for the audience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Paul does not condemn any believer for being rich.

Niether did James,

He condemned people for doing what he said they did, And paul would be right there with them.. as would I, and anyone else..

Not all rich people do the things that James said these people did..


is there any work in James that we should not do? Can you show me one?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

this really gets old..

Can you name one person who says it is not necessary to trust God in areas of your life after you are saved, that we can just sit and do nothing?

Just one person, I would like to talk to them.

Well...you said satan tells us abiding is necessary to salvation. That abiding (remaining and growing in trust) is not necessary for a mans saving. That it scares and harms younger Christians to tell them abiding is necessary. Abiding is trusting. So...to my understanding, yes, I can name one person who has said it. But, I think it is good to take a break from our conversation when it begins to make you cross.

 

[valiant]

I apologize if it came across as if we do not need to study the book of James. The book of James has some valuable lessons to be learned. For instance, the tongue is like a fire and cannot be tamed. I need that lesson. That lesson transcends all dispensations. I rightly divide the word of truth like we are commanded in order to be right doctrinally. What is doctrine? It is direct teaching that the audience is to heed and obey. It is literal teaching to the intended audience. To whom is the writer speaking to. To whom does the doctrine apply?

You make a mockery of the Bible by splitting it into dispensations and applying one part to one dispensation and the other part to another dispensation. You make a mockery of James by applying it to a non-existent period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dude, you seriously need to log off and get someone to help you understand Scripture. Your wresting of Scripture is remarkable and shows a profound misunderstanding of even rudimentary teachings.

do you honestly think that will help him? And that he or anyone else will change because you just judged them?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well...you said satan tells us abiding is necessary to salvation. That abiding (remaining and growing in trust) is not necessary for a mans saving. That it scares and harms younger Christians to tell them abiding is necessary. Abiding is trusting. So...to my understanding, yes, I can name one person who has said it. But, I think it is good to take a break from our conversation when it begins to make you cross.

SMH,, I give up..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You make a mockery of the Bible by splitting it into dispensations and applying one part to one dispensation and the other part to another dispensation. You make a mockery of James by applying it to a non-existent period.

Yep this is going to help John drop his belief system and repent.. SMH,, just SMH,, And people wonder why the church is seen as a hateful group of hypocrites who think they know it all.. And you should just relent ond bow down to their will, because they are all know it alls..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Does that mean I win? You forfeit and give up?
Just kidding...

 

[John146]

You make a mockery of the Bible by splitting it into dispensations and applying one part to one dispensation and the other part to another dispensation. You make a mockery of James by applying it to a non-existent period.

Do you apply all doctrines to you? If so, where's your ark? Have you been to Nineveh preaching they will be destroyed in forty days? Have you faced the mark of the beast? Can you buy or sell without it? All Scripture is written for our good, but not all Scripture is written to us for direct doctrine to obey.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does that mean I win? You forfeit and give up?
Just kidding...

No..lol

But I do not think you understood a word I said or was trying to say..

I still love ya though..

 

[truthhurts]

That may be where the problem is.. If my faith in God for eternity has to equal my faith in all areas of my life, I probably do not have very much faith in God, because I am sure there are areas of my life I stil do not trust God in like I should..

In fact, many years ago I lost faith in the church and assembling together. so I became a prodigal for 5 years.. Did I lose salvation then??






right, so they are two different things, Not the same.. I can trust hi in one completely, and not in the other.. Does the lack of belief in one negate the compete belief in the other?



Do you lack faith in all areas? If a person said they trusted God in salvation, but not in ANY area, I would agree, then again, that person would show no works right. Show no proof of salvation.
Saying I lack faith in this area of my life because i am a baby christian is not the same as saying I lack faith in any area..

so if your context is they lack faith in all areas, I agree,, If it is in some areas, Would they not have faith in others? And is god going to judge them because they are weak in some areas of their life? because they have not yet grown?






Are you a spiritually mature believer, who is sinless, and has no struggles in life? Were that way the moment you were saved? or did it take time?

Saying I understand I am a sinner, I understand I earn judgment, because I have sinned, And I trust you to save me, because of my sin, ad because I have rebelled against you, and because of what your son did on the cross on my behalf is one thing.

That does not automatically say you will trust hi in every area of your life and you become superwoman/man christian the moment you are saved.

It takes growth and learning to trust God in areas of our life. But because we are still sinners, and still need to grow. We have to continue to have Faith God will still keep his word, even though we will fail.

I am sorry sis, What you are saying sounds good.. And I think that is why so many people say it,,

But All I have to do is look at the corinthian church, Who trusted God for salvation, And paul said they were saved, But struggled with sin, and could not eat meat, because they were still babes in christ

Why?

Although the trusted in God for salvation, They did not trust God in all areas of their life.

you seem to be stuck at first base.....this is why these conversations are lost on you....just because you cannot trust him in all areas of your life does not mean everyone else that does is engaged in works based salvation and a self rightoeus pharisee doing kingdom work under their own power....

You seem to think admitting your own humility and work-less behaviors is some noble humble badge of honor, but at its core it is selfishness and false humility, because you refuse to let go and let God have it all...you rail quite hard against absolute and total surrender to God....and hate abiding and lets not talk about bearing fruit....these things are essential for getting past first base...

What you seem to miss above all is that in all your pontification is actually works based and on your own merit...you work really hardtat making sure everyone knows its all about God and not little ole you.....when in fact this attitude is all about little ole you, because you are afraid to surrender and trust him IN ALL THINGS.....and anyone that dares does and has a a better walk with God is wrong....and doing it under their own power....

First base is understanding what Jesus did for us and not anything we do adds to it....2nd base is understanding who we are in Jesus...3rd base is understanding what Jesus has called us to do in the kingdom....home base is working into God instead of working for him or with him...

You want to stay at first base and keep others there, because past that you really have no idea whats out there, because you believe the nonsense that If I dare do anything for God it turns into personal faith and is not of God and Satan will get a rope on my personal faith....

Until Jesus tells you who you are and what you have in him...you will stay here and demand everyone do as well and continue to argue that everyone else but little ole you is engaged in works based salvation and a self rightoeus pharisee doing kingdom work under their own power....

The ability to not trust him in all your life separates the men form the boys in the Kingdom....this is just 2 old dogs fighting for top spot....

 

[PeterJens]

Well...you said satan tells us abiding is necessary to salvation. That abiding (remaining and growing in trust) is not necessary for a mans saving. That it scares and harms younger Christians to tell them abiding is necessary. Abiding is trusting. So...to my understanding, yes, I can name one person who has said it. But, I think it is good to take a break from our conversation when it begins to make you cross.

I had a picture to do with abiding.

I was visiting my father in law with my wife and young son. He was about 3 at the time.
We were busy talking and my slightly hyper active son was quiet sitting on the sofa.
I looked at him and so did my wife and we knew something was wrong.

The others said, no he is fine, but they did not know him.
That is abiding, knowing the moods, the ups and downs of another. It is not a question
of effort just time, listening, and being. Jesus abided in God constantly, went off to pray
alone. He was not always with the disciples, He had a quiet place and dwelt with the Father.

This is not proof of anything, this is about one thing, love and being with another. It is about
the core of who we are, what we care about and sharing this with the King. This is where His
heart is, who He is. A quiet still voice, a place of peace, a knowing and then action, when it
is right.

What you are hearing is city people, who rush here and there, worry about all their possessions
and the important things, that must be done, but Mary just sat listening to Jesus. That is
abiding, it is our lifeblood, the thing that is communion, the quiet yet profound place that others
do not enter, just you and God. You can tell a lot about a person based on their knowledge of
such experiences.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

you seem to be stuck at first base.....this is why these conversations are lost on you....just because you cannot trust him in all areas of your life does not mean everyone else that does is engaged in works based salvation and a self rightoeus pharisee doing kingdom work under their own power....

You seem to think admitting your own humility and work-less behaviors is some noble humble badge of honor, but at its core it is selfishness and false humility, because you refuse to let go and let God have it all...you rail quite hard against absolute and total surrender to God....and hate abiding and lets not talk about bearing fruit....these things are essential for getting past first base...

What you seem to miss above all is that in all your pontification is actually works based and on your own merit...you work really hardtat making sure everyone knows its all about God and not little ole you.....when in fact this attitude is all about little ole you, because you are afraid to surrender and trust him IN ALL THINGS.....and anyone that dares does and has a a better walk with God is wrong....and doing it under their own power....

First base is understanding what Jesus did for us and not anything we do adds to it....2nd base is understanding who we are in Jesus...3rd base is understanding what Jesus has called us to do in the kingdom....home base is working into God instead of working for him or with him...

You want to stay at first base and keep others there, because past that you really have no idea whats out there, because you believe the nonsense that If I dare do anything for God it turns into personal faith and is not of God and Satan will get a rope on my personal faith....

Until Jesus tells you who you are and what you have in him...you will stay here and demand everyone do as well and continue to argue that everyone else but little ole you is engaged in works based salvation and a self rightoeus pharisee doing kingdom work under their own power....

The ability to not trust him in all your life separates the men form the boys in the Kingdom....this is just 2 old dogs fighting for top spot....

This is not real helpful to work toward unity the way you have gone about this. EG is struggling through it all just as everyone is. Honest and open conversation about where we are and how we understand things is much better.

 

[truthhurts]

This is not real helpful to work toward unity the way you have gone about this. EG is struggling through it all just as everyone is. Honest and open conversation about where we are and how we understand things is much better.

Yeah I suppose more gentle would have been better...but he is a....Vet he can take and if he does not that is up to him....The word has to be a hammer at times that breaks the rocks...