DANGER OF A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
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P
That actually makes a case for the pretrib rapture.
Ask yourself why GENTILE CHRISTIANS ARE NOT Sealed against the flying scorpions' sting,but Jewish believers are sealed.
Ask yourself why the AC is given power to OVERCOME THE SAINTS.
Your deal is erroneous. There is no protection because the church is gone and those stragglers left behind are beheaded right away by the AC.
You guys do not know the bible
Ask yourself why GENTILE CHRISTIANS ARE NOT Sealed against the flying scorpions' sting,but Jewish believers are sealed.
Ask yourself why the AC is given power to OVERCOME THE SAINTS.
Your deal is erroneous. There is no protection because the church is gone and those stragglers left behind are beheaded right away by the AC.
You guys do not know the bible
P
Post tribe do not know the bible.
Look how hard they work to deny Jesus is coming soon.
None of them are ready. None of them pray rev final exhortation " even so,COME LORD JESUS"
They DO NOT watch and wait for His return.
They watch and EAGERLY await the one coming on a white horse...THE ANTICHRIST.
DEAR Lord.
They are so deceived. Looking for and even hoping for the devil man.
Even the 5 FOOLISH virgins had enough sense to watch,wait,and position themselves for Jesus sudden return.
Now we see mocking and attacking from these modern day false heretics that mock solid bible doctrine,and the hope of his return actually fulfilling prophecy " ...where is the promise of his coming",not even aware of their antichrist skullduggery.
Look how hard they work to deny Jesus is coming soon.
None of them are ready. None of them pray rev final exhortation " even so,COME LORD JESUS"
They DO NOT watch and wait for His return.
They watch and EAGERLY await the one coming on a white horse...THE ANTICHRIST.
DEAR Lord.
They are so deceived. Looking for and even hoping for the devil man.
Even the 5 FOOLISH virgins had enough sense to watch,wait,and position themselves for Jesus sudden return.
Now we see mocking and attacking from these modern day false heretics that mock solid bible doctrine,and the hope of his return actually fulfilling prophecy " ...where is the promise of his coming",not even aware of their antichrist skullduggery.
One of the problems I have noticed with those who hold the pre-trib view is the arrogant self-righteousness they so often demonstrate.
This self-righteous arrogance is common in their writings as well as their attitudes toward those who sincerely and humbly disagree with them. This leads me to conclude that the doctrine of pre-tribism does not tend to lead to godly humility.
The above quote demonstrates that arrogance and self righteousness clearly.
"Post tribe [sic] do not know the bible."
It was from studying the Bible that I grew out of my pre-trib indoctrination.
The poster claims whose who disagree with him are deceived and heretics, that they mock solid Bible doctrine, and that they are engaging in "antichrist skullduggery".
These are severe accusations toward those who are presumably brothers and sisters in Christ.
Hypothetically, if pre-tribism is wrong and post-tribism is correct, isn't this attributing the truth of the Holy Spirit to be works of the enemy? Didn't Jesus define that as the unforgivable sin?
Insulting those who disagree with you does not come from the Spirit of God but the spirit of deception. Even if the pre-trib rapture is true (and I really wish it were) the above is an ungodly attitude toward fellow believers in Christ
1 Cor 15:51-52 (NIV)
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
M
It wasn't stated after God's wrath. It was stated during God's wrath. It was stated during the 7th trumpet phase. God's wrath is still ongoing at the moment this statement was made.
In any case, I had already demonstrated that your definition of the aorist tense is wrong...with the example from Mark 14:41 and the example from Rev. 19:7 --
Mark 14:41 - "the hour is come [aorist tense]" which was Jesus' reference in the Garden of Gethsemane to His crucifixion. It had NOT happened but was about to. The same thing with Rev.19:7 - "the marriage of the Lamb is come [aorist]". In that passage, the marriage is about to happen but hasn't yet.
According to your concocted definition for the aorist tense...Jesus' crucifixion would have ALREADY taken place when Jesus said "the hour is come"...and the marriage of the Lamb would also have ALREADY taken place at the time this statement was made...but it HADN'T taken place.
Therefore your concocted definition of the aorist tense isn't valid.
It is astounding how much repetition you require...and none of it does any good.
In any case, I had already demonstrated that your definition of the aorist tense is wrong...with the example from Mark 14:41 and the example from Rev. 19:7 --
Mark 14:41 - "the hour is come [aorist tense]" which was Jesus' reference in the Garden of Gethsemane to His crucifixion. It had NOT happened but was about to. The same thing with Rev.19:7 - "the marriage of the Lamb is come [aorist]". In that passage, the marriage is about to happen but hasn't yet.
According to your concocted definition for the aorist tense...Jesus' crucifixion would have ALREADY taken place when Jesus said "the hour is come"...and the marriage of the Lamb would also have ALREADY taken place at the time this statement was made...but it HADN'T taken place.
Therefore your concocted definition of the aorist tense isn't valid.
It is astounding how much repetition you require...and none of it does any good.
M
By the way, let's think about this amazingly illogical statement for a minute:
Ahwatukee is claiming that the words which Jesus directed at Peter, James and John...were NOT directed at Peter, James and John. That is an astoundingly irrational comment.
Jesus' words WERE directed at Peter, James and John. Ahwatukee is therefore claiming that Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse...with erroneous beliefs.
According to Ahwatukee, Peter, James and John were under a mistaken impression. They held to erroneous beliefs.
They supposedly went out from the Olivet Discourse with beliefs that were, for them...false doctrine.
Therefore also, Jesus supposedly taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John.
Even worse, we can and should assume...that Peter, James, John and Andrew proceeded to teach these false doctrines.
They would have proceeded to teach others to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...a teaching which directly contradicts and invalidates PreTrib doctrine.
And Peter, James and John would have proceeded to teach false doctrine throughout their lives.
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Of course, the whole argument about the disciples eventually passing from this life...is disingenuous, dishonest nonsense. I have explained repeatedly to Ahwatukee...that the disciples were fully aware they might not live to see these events because of Jesus' disclaimer that He did not know "the day or hour" of these events. These events might very well happen thousands of years into the future...as indeed has turned out to be the case.
But if Peter, James and John knew they might not live that long...they nevertheless would continue to pass along the Olivet Discourse teachings...which, according to PreTrib assertions, would mean they would have continued to pass along false doctrine.
Of course, that is an utter absurdity...and therefore is PreTrib an utter absurdity.
If Peter, James and John were "under the impression" they should believe Jesus' words from the Olivet Discourse...and they then passed along these teachings...so should ALL believers be in agreement with Peter, James and John.
Ahwatukee is claiming that the words which Jesus directed at Peter, James and John...were NOT directed at Peter, James and John. That is an astoundingly irrational comment.
Jesus' words WERE directed at Peter, James and John. Ahwatukee is therefore claiming that Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse...with erroneous beliefs.
According to Ahwatukee, Peter, James and John were under a mistaken impression. They held to erroneous beliefs.
They supposedly went out from the Olivet Discourse with beliefs that were, for them...false doctrine.
Therefore also, Jesus supposedly taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John.
Even worse, we can and should assume...that Peter, James, John and Andrew proceeded to teach these false doctrines.
They would have proceeded to teach others to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...a teaching which directly contradicts and invalidates PreTrib doctrine.
And Peter, James and John would have proceeded to teach false doctrine throughout their lives.
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Of course, the whole argument about the disciples eventually passing from this life...is disingenuous, dishonest nonsense. I have explained repeatedly to Ahwatukee...that the disciples were fully aware they might not live to see these events because of Jesus' disclaimer that He did not know "the day or hour" of these events. These events might very well happen thousands of years into the future...as indeed has turned out to be the case.
But if Peter, James and John knew they might not live that long...they nevertheless would continue to pass along the Olivet Discourse teachings...which, according to PreTrib assertions, would mean they would have continued to pass along false doctrine.
Of course, that is an utter absurdity...and therefore is PreTrib an utter absurdity.
If Peter, James and John were "under the impression" they should believe Jesus' words from the Olivet Discourse...and they then passed along these teachings...so should ALL believers be in agreement with Peter, James and John.
The Pre Trib Rapture belief is very similar to the Jehovah Witness teaching that only a select few, in their case 144,000 willgo to heaven. A main feature of all cults is that believers are considered special. John Darby was the founder and leader ofthe Exclusive Brethren Cult that considered all other Christians false and inferior to themselves. The exclusive element is that they have no contact with other Christians and as little contact as possible with the world at large. The only difference between his teachings and those of other cult leaders is that the belief in the Pre Trib rapture has spilled over into evangelical churches. Apart from the belief that one is part of a chosen few deemed worthy there is also a fear of being ''left behind'' Cults use both fear and exclusiveness to keep members in line.
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AMEN....way too many contradictions in pre-trib belief.....like the fact that SAINTS are identified as church members through out the entire N.T. and then disassociated by pre-tribbers after chapter 4, the rejection of the word KEEP as applied unto the faithful which means to guard from loss or injury NOT TAKE OUT and by their view what happens to the other 6 churches that are not as faithful?, the ANNOUNCED wrath of GOD in heaven as having finally come at the 7th TRUMP, not the 6th seal etc.....the fact that JESUS said clearly that the gathering from one end of heaven and one end of the earth to the other would not take place until AFTER the great trib...
one contradiction after another.......not that fellowship is at stake for sure!
one contradiction after another.......not that fellowship is at stake for sure!
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Howdy D,
While it is true that the word "Saints" and "Church" are used interchangebly throughout the NT, the fact that within chapters 1 thru 3 in Revelation uses only the word "Church" with the word "Saints" missing from those same chapters and from chapter 4 onward only the word "Saints" is used with the word "Church" missing, which demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is making a distinction here between the two.
The reference to "Saints" is referring to those saints who come out of the great tribulation period introduced in Rev.7:9-17. If you will notice, the words Church and saints are not used interchangeably anywhere in the book of Revelation, as they are in the rest of the NT. This is not a coincidence. There are plenty of places from chapter 4 onward that the word Church could be substituted in place of Saints, but it never is. You need to see the clues of God for what they are.
The following are the reasons why the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is not the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52:
1). The word "Trumpet" is not unique to the event of the gathering of the church
2). The gathering of the church cannot take place at the 7th trumpet because it would put the living church through all of the seals and the trumpet judgments, which are the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.
3). There is noting in the context either, before, during or after, the 7th trumpet that refers to the church being caught up.
4). The trumpets are all judgments of wrath and unlike those who dwell in heaven, there is no blessing for the inhabitants on earth associated with this trumpet.
The gathering that you are quoting above from Matt.24:30-31, takes place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. At that time he will send out his angels and they will be collecting living people, those still in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through the tribulation period alive. This gathering is not referring to the gathering of the church. At the gathering of the church, when the dead are resurrected and the living are changed and caught up, angels do not gather us, but Christ himself says "come up here" and we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
The reference of the angels gathering people "from one end of the heavens to the other" is in reference to the angels gathering people from the four corners of the earth, not being caught up in the air.
While it is true that the word "Saints" and "Church" are used interchangebly throughout the NT, the fact that within chapters 1 thru 3 in Revelation uses only the word "Church" with the word "Saints" missing from those same chapters and from chapter 4 onward only the word "Saints" is used with the word "Church" missing, which demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is making a distinction here between the two.
The reference to "Saints" is referring to those saints who come out of the great tribulation period introduced in Rev.7:9-17. If you will notice, the words Church and saints are not used interchangeably anywhere in the book of Revelation, as they are in the rest of the NT. This is not a coincidence. There are plenty of places from chapter 4 onward that the word Church could be substituted in place of Saints, but it never is. You need to see the clues of God for what they are.
The following are the reasons why the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is not the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52:
1). The word "Trumpet" is not unique to the event of the gathering of the church
2). The gathering of the church cannot take place at the 7th trumpet because it would put the living church through all of the seals and the trumpet judgments, which are the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.
3). There is noting in the context either, before, during or after, the 7th trumpet that refers to the church being caught up.
4). The trumpets are all judgments of wrath and unlike those who dwell in heaven, there is no blessing for the inhabitants on earth associated with this trumpet.
The gathering that you are quoting above from Matt.24:30-31, takes place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. At that time he will send out his angels and they will be collecting living people, those still in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through the tribulation period alive. This gathering is not referring to the gathering of the church. At the gathering of the church, when the dead are resurrected and the living are changed and caught up, angels do not gather us, but Christ himself says "come up here" and we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
The reference of the angels gathering people "from one end of the heavens to the other" is in reference to the angels gathering people from the four corners of the earth, not being caught up in the air.
M
Oh my goodness - I have just what the doctor ordered. Read through this post (below) carefully and give me some specific comments, if you'd like. Especially about the part where Jesus taught Peter, James and John to look for the Abomination of Desolation event... a teaching from Jesus which obviously completely invalidates PreTrib doctrine. Enjoy:
M
I'll bet he's thinking the same thing 
The question is, would any amount of repetition convince either of you?
The question is, would any amount of repetition convince either of you?
You saw first hand...me getting beat up and slapped and smacked, rebuked and rejected (with you sadly participating) by a bunch of people when I'm trying to point out these infiltrating wolves...just as Jesus clearly predicts in the Olivet Discourse as part of the 'end times' scene. This stuff just doesn't fit into people's Ken-and-Barbie fun-land version of Christianity.
I've lost a lot of friends and even family. PreTrib is an absolute cakewalk. All you're doing is telling people...they can just hang out at Starbucks, slurping Cafe Latte's and wait to be whisked off to heaven on "flowery beds of ease". It's a fast-track to becoming wildly popular with sleepy/snoozy/snoring Evangelicals. Just ask all the PreTrib multi-millionaires. What's Tim LaHaye's net worth? Like $200 million? Jerry Jenkins, Hal Lindsey, etc.. These guys all have private jets - LOL.
Pop Christianity is wildly popular. That's why you call it "pop Christianity".