Post-trib "theology" has been debunked by pre-tribbers but that does not make post-trib wrong.
I am not "listening" to anyone but the Bible and the Holy Spirit regarding my end-times views.
I used to be a pre-tribber. But when I did an in depth Bible study about it I couldn't find any verses that supported it. Then I got to wondering where it came from and what the historical position of the church has been.
I discovered that the pre-trib idea was invented in the Albury prophesy conferences and then migrated to the Powerscourt prophesy conferences where John Darby picked it up and spent nearly 50 years teaching it. Scofield got it from Darby and people assumed that because it was in the Scofield Reference Bible it must be true.
It was also proclaimed through what are reported to be "demonic utterances" in the Catholic Apostolic Church in the early 1830s.
It really isn't in the Bible. The only way it can be justified is if the passages that declare the post-trib position Mt 24, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 2 Thes 2, etc., are invalidated with Dispensational theology. Darby created Dispensationalism specifically to invalidate the Bible's clear meaning of a post-trib resurrection.
I also discovered that the history of the church has been clearly post-tribulational.
"A careful survey, then, of the Ante-Nicene fathers produces not a single writer who expects to be raptured before the tribulation period begins, nor who sees the second coming of Christ to be a dual event, separated by some years, nor who sees the resurrection of the righteous dead at any time other than at Christ's glorious second advent. Indeed, those who mention these matters specifically expect to endure the tribulation period and meet the Lord thereafter." [Bell, p 36]
"It has now been demonstrated that pretribulationism and Dispensationalism are not to be found in the annals of the early church. So weighty and conclusive is the evidence that some leading pretribulational scholars, in recent years, have reluctantly admitted that historic premillennialism did not distinguish between Israel and the church:
'Historic premillennialism because of its merger of Israel and the church did not have an effective answer [to postmillennialism]. Dispensationalism, clearly distinguishing the program of Israel from the program for the church in the present age, provided content and method to refute postmillennialism and thereby became an ingredient in the fundamentalist-modernist controversy.'" [Bell p 48 - Walvoord, "Review of 'Dispensationalism in America'," Bibliotheca Sacra, 116:164, April, 1959]
"...it should be noted that the basic orientation of the dispensationalist is in error with regard to this problem. The New Testament actually speaks not so much of the Old Testament saints being admitted to the church, but of the Gentile believers of the New Testament age being admitted to Israel. The end result is the same -- the Old and New Testament saints comprise a single group, known after Pentecost as the church -- but the orientation is different." [Bell p 102]
It is concluded, then, that pretribulationism and the concomitant dispensationalism are not to be found in the writings of the early church fathers -- either explicitly or implicitly. The evidence may be summarized briefly as follows:
(1) Every writer who deals with the subject in any specific way is posttribulational.
(2) No writer sees a dual coming of Christ in prospect.
(3) No writer expresses an expectation of physical removal from the earth before the tribulation period. Rather, the general eschatological theme involves exhortations to stand steadfast in the present (or coming) distress.
(4) No writer expresses astonishment or dismay at being (as was supposed) in the tribulation period, although this reaction would be almost certain if some had expected a prior rapture and thus had been sorely disappointed.
(5) No writer distinguishes between Israel and the church in the dispensational manner, and thus none could be pretribulationists in any rational or logical sense, by admission of leading pretribulationists. [Ryrie, DT, 159, cf also Rap. Ques. p19]
(6) The question of immanency and its relationship to post-tribulationism cannot be explained satisfactorily by any pretribulational hypothesis, since confusion and misunderstanding must be attributed to the writers. Post-tribulationism, on the other hand, provides a framework in which the data can be accounted for, i.e. immanency as a function of a contemporaneous tribulation period. [Bell p 55-56]
One might also wonder how well pre-tribulationism was represented in the centuries following the early church.
"... it is freely admitted by pretribulationists that no trace of the doctrine is to be found in church history after the Ante- Nicene fathers until the nineteenth century". [Bell, p27 - from Gerald B. Stanton, "Kept from the Hour", (unpublished doctor's dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1952 p, 315)]
How well then, is the post-tribulation position represented in church history?
Justin Martyr
(c. 150 A.D.) O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. [Bell, p 33-34 - Justin Martyr, "Dialog with Trypho," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, I, 253-54]
Irenaeus
(Late 2nd Cen.) And he [Anti-Christ] shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and (everything) shall be given into his hand until a time [IS THIS RIGHT] of times and a half time, that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second (Epistle) of the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming."
For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in (the time of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and (with respect to) those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked One. [Bell, p 34 - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," ANF, I, 554, 565]
And they [the ten kings] shall...give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1) [Gundry, p.175]
But he [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is(Against Heresies V, 30, 4) [Gundry, p.175]
Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John. John wrote far more about the Lord's return in the New Testament than did all other writers combined. It's safe to assume that the apostle John had a pretty clear understanding of the return of Christ and that Polycarp and Irenaeus would have had a better idea than anyone else of what John taught. Charges from Walvoord of Irenaeus being clouded, immature, or heretical should raise more questions about Walvoord's teaching than that of Irenaeus.
Tertullian
(c. 200 A.D.) ... In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view... that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God. ...
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints. [Bell, p 35 - Tert. "On the Resurrection of the Flesh," ANF, III, 563]
That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war in the Church of God.... Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world..."(On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv; cf, Scorpiace xii) [Gundry, p.177]"
Hippolytus
(early 3rd Cen.) It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time the impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire. [Bell, p 35-36 - Hip.,"Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," ANF, v, 205]
Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist's persecution of the saints and continues in the same vein]...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 60,61). [Gundry, p. 176]
Ephriam the Syrian
(306-373) Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..."(Sermo Asceticus, I) [MacPherson, p.18]
Cyril of Jerusalem
(315-386) The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive... it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand (Catechetical Lectures, 15,9) [MacPherson, p.18]
Augustine
(354-430) But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12] even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church...(The City of God, XX, 23). [MacPherson, p.19]
Bernard of Clairvaux
(1090-1153) There remains only one thing - that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ... (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16). [MacPherson, p.19]
John Wycliffe
(1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155) [MacPherson, p.18]
Martin Luther
(1483-1546) [The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of the tribulations and disasters for the Church ... (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481). [MacPherson, p.19-20]
John Knox
(1515-1572) ...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many yeers before they come to passe ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon (The Historie of the Reformatioun..., I, p. 76) [MacPherson, p.20]
John Foxe
(1516-1587) ... that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church ... to disturb the whole Church of Christ... (Acts and Monuments, I). [MacPherson, p. 20]"
Daniel Whitby
(1638-1726) ...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church ... so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast... ("A Paraphrase and Commentary", p. 696) [MacPherson, p. 21]
John Newton
(1725-1807) Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past ( "The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol II, p. 152) [MacPherson, p.22]
Oswald J. Smith
... I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 12) [MacPherson, p.29]
Harold J. Ockenga
No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' (Christian Life, February, 1955). [MacPherson, p.31]"
John R. W. Stott
He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p.104). [MacPherson, p.33]
Bernard L. Ramm
...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41) [MacPherson, p.33]
J. Barton Payne
Hippolytus, for example, foresaw a rather complex series of events which would culminate in the coming of Christ, including a ten-nation confederacy, the appearance of Anti-Christ, and severe persecution of the church. He felt that these events might begin at any time, but Christ's coming itself would thus not be at any moment.
Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Lactantius also foresaw detailed complexes of events, climaxed by Christ's coming and thus could not be classified as believing in immanency." [Bell p50 - from J. Barton Payne, The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p17-18]
These are all unquestionably post-tribulational views. Historic Christianity supports the view that the event known by some as the rapture, more accurately titled the Resurrection, Gathering, Harvest, or Translation of the Saints, is to take place at the end of the period commonly referred to as the tribulation. And the Dispensationalists clearly admit it to be so.
Since pretribulationists admit that the doctrine was unknown during the period following the Ante-Nicene age until "rediscovered" and "refined" by the nineteenth-century Plymouth Brethren, ... it will be unnecessary to survey the intervening period in this study. [Bell p56]
