The Rapture explained in two minutes

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Not really. But...who among 'alternative' thinkers doesn't believe it is only a matter of time before the US currency collapses with the evil Fed counterfeiting the dollar and racking up 20 trillion dollars of phony debt...and thus causing the economy to collapse?

Folks like me who make a rather concerted effort to circumvent the "mainstream media" (Fox News, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Wall Street Journal, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, etc. etc.)...foresee troubles coming, sooner rather than later.

And look at all the international trouble brewing right now. If this isn't the time of "wars and rumors of wars", I wouldn't know what is. I think any Bible student should look at current events and realize history is culminating...and doing so at an increasingly rapid rate. My two cents.
The "wars and rumors of wars" dealt with the pre- AD 70 sacking of Jerusalem. They were part of the "beginnings of sorrows." Jesus tells His disciples this:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This "tribulation" described their sufferings and martyrdom. This was a specific lesson to them although many will also suffer for Christ throughout time as John tells us in Rev 7. Every disciples, except John was indeed martyred prior to 70 AD.

The age in question was the Jewish age which came to an end in 70 AD. The Olivet mostly dealt with this.

The signs for the return of Christ is far more subtle. Life will appear normal. Only knowledgeable Christians will recognize those signs. There will be much sin, much turning away from faith. Kinda like now.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Not really. But...who among 'alternative' thinkers doesn't believe it is only a matter of time before the US currency collapses with the evil Fed counterfeiting the dollar and racking up 20 trillion dollars of phony debt...and thus causing the economy to collapse?

Folks like me who make a rather concerted effort to circumvent the "mainstream media" (Fox News, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Wall Street Journal, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, etc. etc.)...foresee troubles coming, sooner rather than later.

And look at all the international trouble brewing right now. If this isn't the time of "wars and rumors of wars", I wouldn't know what is. I think any Bible student should look at current events and realize history is culminating...and doing so at an increasingly rapid rate. My two cents.
who are 'alternative' thinkers? what would be some examples?

the USA may be approaching its end. But the end of the USA doesn't have to be part of the last days.

this may be the time of "wars and rumors of wars", but maybe not. I remember reading things from the sixties where people said this had to be the end.
 
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GaryA

Guest
That's actually dishonesty on your part, at this point.
There is no dishonesty on my part. I am actually being quite honest. :D



You do realize, don't you, that - in post #428 - you could have simply said:

"Oh, wow. I have never heard of that before. How did you come to that conclusion?"

- instead of saying all of the crap you said - and, going-on-a-tear, trying to make me look like some kind of 'idiot'.


You refer to "colon". Bro, you don't have some sort of secret divining powers which give you "deeper understanding" into the specific significance of "colon" than the rest of us mere mortals...other than what the English rules of grammar might indicate. And they don't indicate 2000 year time gaps (or whatever you're claiming).
See? You even criticize me for things you do not even know what I am talking about.

You are "lashing out" at you-know-not-what.



And, I am not asking for permission - or a 'blessing' - from you or anyone else. I am trying to get you to see how your self-righteous 'attitude' is "against" you...



I find it interesting that you would choose to "bicker" with - and belittle - the only person ( to my recollection ) who has posted in this thread, indicating that they acknowledge and agree with you concerning the very thing that you are trying to get people to acknowledge and agree to -- the order of events represented in some of your posts - and some of my posts.

Just because we disagree on other 'details' of the topic -- you go "haywire" with a highly-defensive 'attitude' towards me -- instead of appreciating the fact that we have definitely come to some agreement.

I most definitely agree with this:

What I do think I know is that you have a hostile nature to those that do not believe like you.


I know you will want to post at least one more time - to have "the last word" - so that you can try to make me look like an 'idiot'.

Go ahead. I do not care. Say what you will. It is your Judgment Day, after all...



But, I am done trying to discuss anything with you in this thread.

I may try to continue with Johnny_B on his question; other-than-that, I really think that any more time spent in this thread would be a complete waste of time...

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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who are 'alternative' thinkers? what would be some examples?

the USA may be approaching its end. But the end of the USA doesn't have to be part of the last days.

this may be the time of "wars and rumors of wars", but maybe not. I remember reading things from the sixties where people said this had to be the end.
As I stated everything before Mat 24:26 is over!! The "beginnings of sorrows" are long in the past. The Great Tribulation is long over. Why can't people see this? The Days of Noah, prior to the actual start of the Flood, were like normal. When Christ returns, people will just be living their lives, getting married, partying etc. When He comes there will be two working in the field, etc, not hanging on to life after a brutal world wide slaughter. Seriously, so many are misled.
 
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GaryA

Guest
Johnny_B:

Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



The 69 weeks of verse 25 runs from the beginning of the 1st week until the the end of the 69th week - which, of course, is also the beginning of the 70th week.

I believe that it is the baptism of Jesus that is being referred to as being at the end of the 69 weeks - when the last item of the list in verse 24 occurred.

The end of verse 25 is critical in understanding the 62 weeks in verse 26. It represents and refers to the end of the rebuilding of the city, which was 52 ( or, 52+ ) years after the decree went forth to rebuild the city - which places the begining of the 62 years in the middle of the 8th week - and the end of the 62 years in the middle of the 70th week.

The words 'And after' in verse 26 put the start of the 62-year count at the end of the rebuilding of the city - NOT the end of the 7th week.

There is no requirement for the 62 weeks to begin after the first 7 weeks. People only assume this.

There is no gap or lapse. The 62 weeks is simply counted from the start point indicated in scripture.

The whole 70 weeks are still intact. The 69 weeks are still intact. The 62 weeks are still intact.

The end of the 62 years places "shall Messiah be cut off" in the middle of week 70 -- which is also the same point in time as "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in verse 27.

It is the middle of the 70th week.
Christ dies on the cross.
The veil of the temple is rent from top to bottom.
Sacrifice and oblation cease.



Luke 19:

[SUP]41[/SUP] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [SUP]42[/SUP] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. [SUP]43[/SUP] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, [SUP]44[/SUP] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



By "at least in this thy day", I believe Jesus meant something on the order of "now is your time" - referring to "while He was here" ( i.e. - His First Coming ) - which was its 'visitation' ( "The time Christ came to it." ).

Of course, He is talking "to" and "about" the city - and, abstractly - "to" and "about" the people - who are "what" soon-after render to the city its destruction.

In effect, He is saying:

"Because you did not recognize and accept Me as Messiah..."

:)
 
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jaybird88

Guest
Because then you would have the opportunity to prepare spiritually...just as Jesus says is necessary to do for the end days. He was the one who has said there is required special preparation for the dark hours. That wasn't my 'invention'. It is the instruction of Jesus.
how exactly do you prepare spiritually? lets say you have 2 Christians. one follows Jesus and the the 12, what they taught, tries to help others and live a Christlike life. the other is a tribulation Christian that believes in the special preparation. explain the difference between the two.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
What I am saying as well is you throw out your unbreakable chain of "Jesus didn't teach false doctrine" like everyone that believe different them you, believes face doctrine.
Johnny, my friend - of necessity, if I have certain beliefs, there is absolutely no way on God's green earth to NOT believe the other guy is wrong. Don't quite know what you want from me. Yes, it's true...I have certain beliefs. Therefore, if someone has a belief that is at variance from my belief, I therefore believe they are wrong. That isn't wrong of me. Anymore than it is wrong of you to believe Mormons are wrong. There's nothing you or I can do about the fact we disagree with others.

As I've said before yu snd those that believe like you seem to be very quarrelsome, with no genteelness or respect for those that do not believe like you.
You know...that's sort of "bearing false witness" against me (one of the Ten Commandments). Maybe you ought to wait until you actually see an example, then explain what you think you're seeing, and THEN make that charge.

I've noticed in the last couple of days, some PreTribbers and non-PostTribbers around here trying to build an echo chamber - LOL.

Which I can't get wound up on a secondary doctrine.
Fully one fourth of the Bible is prophecy. Where did you get the idea this was "secondary doctrine"? Who decides something is "secondary doctrine"? I wasn't aware there is such a thing!

all I'm trying to say is, don't be quarrelsome over these things
Don't know where you see me being "quarrelsome". Like I said...instead of making a vague generalized comment, call me on it when you see it happening. I discuss, I argue my points, I rebut, I rebut vigorously, and I object when treated to dishonesty. I believe a lot of my problem is...I'm defeating people's arguments and they're not happy about it so they counter-accuse. And it's not that I'm so "brilliant". All I've really been doing for the last number of days is...almost nothing more than quoting a few verses out of Matthew 24. I wish I could take the credit but...it's not my material, as they say. It was some guy named "Matthew", I think.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
I thought that you were saying that when Jesus prophesied to Peter, James, and John, they understood that he was prophesying to them. That is, that they would see the AoD.
No, I said Jesus made it quite clear to them (and they all duly noted this in the Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse) that He did not know whether they personally would survive to see the "AoD"...because He admitted He did not know the "day or hour" of these events. In other words, the events might happen thousands of years into the future, for all He knew. Therefore, it might be a future generation of believers who would experience the events.

if only some believers will see the AoD, how does that mean the rapture must be post-trib?
I don't know if I'm understanding your question. The believers who DO see the Abomination of Desolation...are the believers who will go through great tribulation and then be "gathered"/raptured AFTER that.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
who are 'alternative' thinkers? what would be some examples?
Alternative thinkers are, for example, the credentialed architects and engineers who produced the 15-minute mini-doc seen below.

These guys demolish the "official" 9/11 story. Thousands of these architects and engineers have signed petitions denouncing the official 9/11 story. They have had a standing offer of $10K to any other credentialed person who is willing to debate the topic. The offer has been there for years with no takers.

I always tell people - if you don't understand 9/11...you don't understand the world you live in.

If, as a Bible Christian, you understand 9/11 (and a few other key issues)...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.

As I have previously said though...most American Evangelicals get a whiff of this kind of Red Pill info...and go into desperate denial...and hightail it to the nearest Starbucks.

[video=youtube;PqFOXe_d-x4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqFOXe_d-x4[/video]
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
- instead of saying all of the crap you said - and, going-on-a-tear, trying to make me look like some kind of 'idiot'.
Good grief - none of that happened. I don't regret making the argument that you don't have divining powers to derive some secret significance from a "colon". That is my view. It isn't an offense to have a viewpoint. (??)
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
how exactly do you prepare spiritually? lets say you have 2 Christians. one follows Jesus and the the 12, what they taught, tries to help others and live a Christlike life. the other is a tribulation Christian that believes in the special preparation. explain the difference between the two.
All I am saying is...people who do not go to the effort of doing as Jesus has instructed...which is to live with an expectation of having to through "great tribulation"...they are putting themselves in grave danger of falling victim to the deceptions of the Devil and the Antichrist and the "false prophets".

I think you need to sit down and read the Olivet discourse for yourself. It sounds like maybe you're trying to make an argument through this question you are posing. In other words, you seem to be saying "hey, if I'm a good Christian, it doesn't matter what I believe regarding the Olivet Discourse".

The problem is...that's like saying "it doesn't matter what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse". But it does matter!
 
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GaryA

Guest
Johnny_B:

The end of verse 25 is critical in understanding the 62 weeks in verse 26. It represents and refers to the end of the rebuilding of the city, which was 52 ( or, 52+ ) years after the decree went forth to rebuild the city - which places the begining of the 62 years in the middle of the 8th week - and the end of the 62 years in the middle of the 70th week.
And -- this is one of the reasons why / how we know that the 70th week is not 'separate' from the other 69...

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
OOPS!

Good Grief... :rolleyes:

The end of verse 25 is critical in understanding the 62 weeks in verse 26. It represents and refers to the end of the rebuilding of the city, which was 52 ( or, 52+ ) years after the decree went forth to rebuild the city - which places the begining of the 62 years in the middle of the 8th week - and the end of the 62 years in the middle of the 70th week.
The words 'And after' in verse 26 put the start of the 62-year count at the end of the rebuilding of the city - NOT the end of the 7th week.
The end of the 62 years places "shall Messiah be cut off" in the middle of week 70 -- which is also the same point in time as "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in verse 27.
62 weeks
62-week

:eek:
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
All I am saying is...people who do not go to the effort of doing as Jesus has instructed...which is to live with an expectation of having to through "great tribulation"...they are putting themselves in grave danger of falling victim to the deceptions of the Devil and the Antichrist and the "false prophets".

I think you need to sit down and read the Olivet discourse for yourself. It sounds like maybe you're trying to make an argument through this question you are posing. In other words, you seem to be saying "hey, if I'm a good Christian, it doesn't matter what I believe regarding the Olivet Discourse".

The problem is...that's like saying "it doesn't matter what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse". But it does matter!
not exactly what i am saying, what i am saying is if there was a Christian living and doing what is pleasing in the eyes of the Lord, becoming closer to the Lord each day, i would not teach them to stop and replace this way of life by placing all their focus on trying to figure out when these times are coming.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Happy Resurrection Day to all my fellow Believers. Let's rejoice that He is risen and given us eternal life.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Re: OOPS!

Matthew 18:22

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Seventy weeks - 70 x 7. We are to forgive our brothers up to 70 x 7 = 490. If he transgresses a 491st time - JUDGMENT

God determined that He was going to give His people (Children of Israel) 490 years to finally get it right. This, after He caused them to be taken captive to Babylon for 70 years and made their city DESOLATE. The Children of Israel were given another chance, in essence. They were being given (it was determined) that they would have 70 weeks (490 solar years) to: "To finish the transgression, To make an end ofsins, To make reconciliation for iniquity." At the end of 69 weeks (483 solar years), they would receive their visitation from Messiah. Sadly, as Gary points out (Luke 19:44), they did not KNOW THE TIME (emp added) of their visitation. You see, the 70 weeks prophesy given to Daniel TOLD THEM exactly when Messiah would appear which was at the end of the 69th week (year 483).

At the start of week 70 (beginning of year 484), Messiah appears and begins His 3.5 year ministry. It was supposed to have lasted 7 years but in the middle of week 70 (year 486.5), Messiah was cut off (crucified) and rose again (HAPPY RESURRECTION DAY TODAY!!!).

During the final week (Week 70), Messiah, being a Jew was the fulfillment of this: To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy and the people who recognized Him did this: And to anoint the Most Holy. But because the PEOPLE WHO DID NOT KNOW HIM AND RECOGNIZE THE "TIME OF HIS VISITATION" put their Messiah to death, they (THAT FAITHLESS AND PERVERSE GENERATION) would suffer the GREAT TRIBULATION brought about by the PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME (TITUS)!!!

This was and will remain the WORST TRIBULATION any NATION would ever endure. The Children of Israel would see their temple and Holy City completely destroyed with fire then every last stone of their city would be removed so that not one stone would be left on top of another.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


This GREAT TRIBULATION came upon that faithless and perverse generation of Christ's time. Within that generation of those who killed Christ, judgment and utter desolation would come as Daniel was told. Jesus laments this thinking of His people who would soon put Him to death as He loved them even while knowing what they were about to do to them. He begins to tell His disciples about the Great Tribulation to come RIGHT HERE:

[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”


But even before Christ said this, John the Baptist said this:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

The Wrath to Come came starting in 66 AD and reached a climax in 70 AD (3.5 years later). You see the Pharisees and Sadducees left the CITY OF DESOLATION and came down to the Jordan. John already knew the fate that would befall them and the wrath they would endure. But I digress.

In the Olivet, Jesus gives the signs leading up to the Great Tribulation (Final judgment of Israel) and starts by telling them of the "beginnings of sorrow" every one of these signs were fulfilled prior to the invasion of Rome in 66 AD. He looks to Peter, James and Andrew and says this:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

All three would die before the Great Tribulation. He then looked at John and said this (since the other three would be dead by this time):

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...

This final sign of the GREAT TRIBULATION was the Abomination of Desolation. Luke tells us that the Abomination which caused the desolation of Jerusalem was the (Roman) army.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...

The Roman armies (which also killed Christ), were Abominable to the Jews. They have only been fighting with them for decades. Just two chapters earlier (As Gary points out) in Luke 19, Jesus foretells them surrounding the city, then leveling the city.

Josephus tells that the massive gate to the Temple opened all by itself and it took many men to close it. This would be the final sign to them about to be over run and killed. When the Roman solders finally broke through and stood in the Temple (something that would be an Abomination since foreigners were not allowed in the Temple), the Desolation began. 10,000 Jews were immediately slaughtered and the killing continued until the solders arms became too tired to kill any more.
 
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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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As I stated everything before Mat 24:26 is over!! The "beginnings of sorrows" are long in the past. The Great Tribulation is long over. Why can't people see this? The Days of Noah, prior to the actual start of the Flood, were like normal. When Christ returns, people will just be living their lives, getting married, partying etc. When He comes there will be two working in the field, etc, not hanging on to life after a brutal world wide slaughter. Seriously, so many are misled.
ok... possibly... the Antichrist is come and gone, then?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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No, I said Jesus made it quite clear to them (and they all duly noted this in the Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse) that He did not know whether they personally would survive to see the "AoD"...because He admitted He did not know the "day or hour" of these events. In other words, the events might happen thousands of years into the future, for all He knew. Therefore, it might be a future generation of believers who would experience the events.

I don't know if I'm understanding your question. The believers who DO see the Abomination of Desolation...are the believers who will go through great tribulation and then be "gathered"/raptured AFTER that.
ok, but... pre-tribbers allow for people to convert, become believers after the rapture... at least I did when I was strongly pre.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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Alternative thinkers are, for example, the credentialed architects and engineers who produced the 15-minute mini-doc seen below.

These guys demolish the "official" 9/11 story. Thousands of these architects and engineers have signed petitions denouncing the official 9/11 story. They have had a standing offer of $10K to any other credentialed person who is willing to debate the topic. The offer has been there for years with no takers.

I always tell people - if you don't understand 9/11...you don't understand the world you live in.

If, as a Bible Christian, you understand 9/11 (and a few other key issues)...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.

As I have previously said though...most American Evangelicals get a whiff of this kind of Red Pill info...and go into desperate denial...and hightail it to the nearest Starbucks.

[video=youtube;PqFOXe_d-x4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqFOXe_d-x4[/video]
' ...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.'

so... you are sure the Antichrist will be here in less then 200 years? or not sure?

back in post 479 it sounded like you were not sure, now it sounds like you are sure? or am I misunderstanding?
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
not exactly what i am saying, what i am saying is if there was a Christian living and doing what is pleasing in the eyes of the Lord, becoming closer to the Lord each day, i would not teach them to stop and replace this way of life by placing all their focus on trying to figure out when these times are coming.
?? That's exactly what I had said.

This does not require "placing all your focus". My 12-year-old daughter figured it out in fifteen minutes...when I had her simply read through the bulk of Matthew 24. She easily understood all the key facts of the end times.

Once you come to the simple conclusion that PreTrib doctrine (nor any other doctrine) has the authority to brush aside or contradict the Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse...you're then set free from having to wade through 800 tons of PreTrib propaganda with it's impossibly complex maze of "hither, thither and yon" comings and goings...with their confusing references to the third bowl, fourth saucer, sixth trumpet, eighth whistle...on and on and on.

THAT is what you're thinking about, I believe, when you refer to "placing all your focus. It requires all your focus and then some!

I've said this before: I have talked to close to a hundred pastors, going back a decade or so and, get this...99% of them are ambivalent and dubious about PreTrib doctrine because, by their own admission (and a great many of these are seminary graduates with doctoral degrees and multiple Master's degrees)...CAN NOT FATHOM NOR UNDERSTAND PreTrib doctrine.

And many of them have related to me...they preach on this topic as infrequently as they dare...maybe a 3-part series every five or seven years, or something. But they feel they don't have the freedom to speak openly and honestly about their reservations because of a dictatorial PC regimen which prevails across Evangelical-dom.

What does that tell you? I think it tells you to not waste your time giving "all your focus" to PreTrib propaganda...simply read the Olivet Discourse...take Jesus at His word...and prepare as He has instructed us to prepare...

...or don't.