The Rapture explained in two minutes

[MattTooFor]

ok, but... pre-tribbers allow for people to convert, become believers after the rapture... at least I did when I was strongly pre.

Again, I may not be understanding you. Jesus is shown here in Matthew 24, informing the believers that the first event they should look for is (as you call it) the "AoD". So...who cares what pre-tribbers claim? They haven't proven the existence of their PreTrib rapture to begin with.

They can't arrive at the Olivet Discourse and suddenly claim- oh these believers who will be raptured...are "tribulation saints". That's "circular reasoning" AND "begging the question" both at the same time - LOL.

They can point to no passage anywhere in the Bible where a PreTrib rapture is being taught. The Bible is devoid of a PreTrib passage.

And of course,the 'coup de grâce' -- Jesus is, point-blank, telling the believers the first event to look for is the "AoD"...an event deep inside of the 70th Week. Thus, Game Over for PreTrib.

 

[MattTooFor]

' ...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.'

so... you are sure the Antichrist will be here in less then 200 years? or not sure?

back in post 479 it sounded like you were not sure, now it sounds like you are sure? or am I misunderstanding?

You keep referring to "200 years". Don't know where you get that number. No, I do NOT have a number. But if you start absorbing a lot of 'alternative news' material, you begin to surmise these things will happen sooner rather than later.

Could be fifty years (or whatever). But could be a year from now. We may very well be already inside the 70th Week, or on the verge.

Just alone from the economic standpoint, all the counter-culture academics (at Mises.org and LewRockwell.com, etc.) are saying it is a mathematical certainty the economies of the Western world cannot hold up much longer. A Bible student ought to surmise trouble of biblical proportions lie ahead.

There is, of course, plenty of trouble to go through even before the actual Antichrist regime. Just look at the first four seals in Revelation 6. The 5th seal is the time of the Antichrist and great tribulation which results in all the martyrdom. Then comes the "wrath of God" (6th seal) and we're outta here. The Antichrist will struggle along, presumably operating from the confines of "the rocks and caves" for the remainder of the 1260 days.

 

[PlainWord]

ok... possibly... the Antichrist is come and gone, then?

What AntiChrist? Do you mean the Man of Sin? All the "false Christs" of Mat 24 are come and gone. Jerusalem was loaded with them during the War of the Jews.

 

[MattforJesus]

People will say anything to justify what they believe,and make scriptures out to be what they want them to be,to back up their belief,but how can there be many false Christs,and false prophets,back in the first century when Christianity is so young,for it does not make sense.

But today it does make sense,with all the different interpretations of the Bible,new age movement,Scientology,Mormon,and all the rest.

For a Christ figure is a person that claims that what they teach is what is the best benefit to humanity,in the salvation type of way,whether it is heaven,spiritual evolution through nature on earth,or whatever it might be,and a false prophet someone that tells that in the future this is the way it will be,and people that say the Bible is not true and says the prophesy that it tells will not happen,is being a prophet themselves by saying it will not happen.

And someone is going to say that it was that bad in spiritual deception,and all kinds of people claiming that their way and teachings is the best in the salvation department,and false prophets saying this is how it will be in the future,and that is the way it will be in the future,all kinds of false Christs,and prophets,back then.What.

For I am not buying it,but today we can see that there is a lot of deception,and false Christs,and prophets,as the new age movement says that the occult,and spiritual evolution,is the best benefit to humanity and the truth,and Scientology,Mormon,and all the others that are proclaiming that they have the truth in what is the best benefit for humanity,above all other people.

And they also forget,the saints shall be hated of all nations,the Gospel must be preached in to all nations,the saints will be able to know of pestilences,and famines,and earthquakes,and kingdom against kingdom,and hear of wars happening,and rumors of wars,that will happen all over the globe,when back in the first century all they basically knew is what they could see that was in their eyesight range,so Jesus was obviously telling them of the whole world against the saints,and they will know of things that will happen all around the world,on different places on earth,but they want to place it in the first century.

There is a second attack on Jerusalem,which God said He will gather all nations together against Jerusalem,not the Roman Empire,but all nations of the world together to go against Israel,which He will save Israel,and put down the world.

If everything happened in the first century,we would not of even of been born,for God would of put the world down then,and the saints would be at the New Jerusalem,and the earth,and heaven,would be no more.

 

[jaybird88]

What does that tell you? I think it tells you to not waste your time giving "all your focus" to PreTrib propaganda...simply read the Olivet Discourse...take Jesus at His word...and prepare as He has instructed us to prepare...
...or don't.

how does one prepare? you have yet to answer this simple question. a group of Christians walking in accordance to what Jesus taught, what exactly are you telling them to do different?

 

[samuel23]

Hi JB: Those who recognize that the church will not be gathered until after the tribulation will have great motivation to hang in there and keep the faith even though terrible things are happening because they know that shortly the Lord will return. On the other hand , those who believed in a false pre-trib rapture will be devastated when it does not occur and will feel abandoned by the Lord.

 

[jaybird88]

Hi JB: Those who recognize that the church will not be gathered until after the tribulation will have great motivation to hang in there and keep the faith even though terrible things are happening because they know that shortly the Lord will return. On the other hand , those who believed in a false pre-trib rapture will be devastated when it does not occur and will feel abandoned by the Lord.

that may be true, as i said before im not a trib follower. but do you get what i am saying, does anyone? if times are tough, people are suffering and in need, we should help regardless if you think the trib times are here now or 500 yrs from now, the tribulation times should not be a factor on when you decide to do what Jesus teaches. one should be doing that at all times.

 

[MattTooFor]

that may be true, as i said before im not a trib follower. but do you get what i am saying, does anyone? if times are tough, people are suffering and in need, we should help regardless if you think the trib times are here now or 500 yrs from now, the tribulation times should not be a factor on when you decide to do what Jesus teaches. one should be doing that at all times.

I think you may be arguing with a phantom: No one who supports a simple, straightforward interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and believes in carefully heeding Jesus words there...is advocating neglect of people in need. (???) How did you get that impression? The entirety of the New Testament was written by people who lived with this expectation of going into "great tribulation" which Jesus had taught them...yet look at all their promotion of good deeds and charity.

You're certainly free to continue being a bit blasé about "trib" issues...but can you imagine sitting next to Peter, James, John and Andrew as Jesus was delivering this momentous Olivet Discourse...then after Jesus' presentation, you would get up and say "OK. Whatever. Thanks but I'm not a big 'trib follower'. Later, guys."

 

[MattTooFor]

how does one prepare? you have yet to answer this simple question. a group of Christians walking in accordance to what Jesus taught, what exactly are you telling them to do different?

I'm not telling them anything. Jesus gives explicit instructions specifically regarding the time of "great tribulation"...in Matthew 25, the concluding portion of His "Olivet Discourse":

In Matt. 24, He has described these events. In Matt. 25, He now instructs how to prepare for these events...by means of His "Parable of the Ten Virgins".

He describes how these ten virgins are awaiting the arrival of their "bridegroom". But to successfully meet up with Him, they will have to step out into the darkness because the bridegroom arrives at midnight.

The five virgins who prepared for the darkness by having previously filled their lamps with oil, are thus enabled to step out into the darkness to meet their Lord...the others who did NOT prepare are thus UNABLE to cope with the darkness...and they miss out.

I have previously put in a pretty substantial effort to describe to you what I think it means to "fill your lamp with oil". The "oil" is a reference to spiritual sustenance. According to this parable, Jesus requires a specific spiritual preparation, specifically for the time of darkness (the "great tribulation") that precedes the arrival of the King.

One might ask if this is a step above "normal" spiritual strengthening. Well...ALL New Testament believers and ALL the authors of the NT writings were ALL expecting to possibly live through these end time events...because that is what Jesus taught.

They lived in a state of high alert and spiritual preparedness (oil in their lamps) for the coming "darkness". The huge and vast majority of American believers...do NOT.

Therefore...there IS NO SUCH THING as "normal" levels of spiritual strengthening. It's just that in America we have this predominance of the PreTrib mindset that says "there is no need to prepare for the darkness of the Great Tribulation because we'll all be raptured before that".

Consequently, most American Evangelicals fit the description of the five virgins who did NOT fill their lamps with oil. They have no concerns about "trib" issues. They have no great interest in any "trib" issues.

 

[PlainWord]

And they also forget,the saints shall be hated of all nations,the Gospel must be preached in to all nations,the saints will be able to know of pestilences,and famines,and earthquakes,and kingdom against kingdom,and hear of wars happening,and rumors of wars,that will happen all over the globe,when back in the first century all they basically knew is what they could see that was in their eyesight range,so Jesus was obviously telling them of the whole world against the saints,and they will know of things that will happen all around the world,on different places on earth,but they want to place it in the first century.

There is a second attack on Jerusalem,which God said He will gather all nations together against Jerusalem,not the Roman Empire,but all nations of the world together to go against Israel,which He will save Israel,and put down the world.

If everything happened in the first century,we would not of even of been born,for God would of put the world down then,and the saints would be at the New Jerusalem,and the earth,and heaven,would be no more.

You are correct in that Israel gets attacked again. This is foretold by Ezekiel and it clearly happens after Israel was restored as a nation in 1948. In 1967 of course Israel regains it's city in the 6-Day War and becomes the dominant regional power as told in Eze 37 (Dry Bones coming back to life). So, correct, Israel will be attacked again but God directly intervenes and destroys Gog and her allies. We see this in Rev 20 also.

But, the Great Tribulation discussed by Jesus at the Olivet happened in 70 AD. It was God punishing that faithless generation. He gave his disciples signs and all happened including preaching the Gospel to "all nations." God was speaking directly and personally to them. That's right, the Great Commission was given to them. Sure we all are to preach the Gospel to the world, but that wasn't the context. What does Paul say in Col 1?

"..if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." The gospel was already preached. It was also preached to all those who had died as Peter taught. "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Yes, the Great Tribulation is over, long in the past. It was the wrath from God poured out upon those wicked Jews who rejected Him. Tyrants John and Simon killed more Jews than the Romans. An estimated 1.2 million Jews were slaughtered back then and their entire city, not just the Temple, was destroyed, stone by stone until nothing but a destitute desert remained.

As I mentioned, false christs appeared and led many to their deaths. That's why Jesus warned about them. Then in Mat 24:26 He makes clear that when HE returns, it will be as fast as lightening, not like it was with those false Christs who were among them.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi JB: Those who recognize that the church will not be gathered until after the tribulation will have great motivation to hang in there and keep the faith even though terrible things are happening because they know that shortly the Lord will return. On the other hand , those who believed in a false pre-trib rapture will be devastated when it does not occur and will feel abandoned by the Lord.

LOL. the Great Tribulation is over. Why do people keep looking for it? Only those in Judea were told to flee, right?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

No country ever endured a greater horror than the Jews of 70 AD. If you haven't read the War of the Jews by Josephus, I ask you to do so as it will leave no doubt. He goes into great detail about the sufferings they endured first by their own people. There was a three way civil war inside the city while the Romans were surrounding them. Starvation and dead bodies were everywhere, disease and famine and murder like it was nothing.

The people inside feared the tyrants and zealots more than the Romans. They would eat their money and try to get out of the city but many were caught and killed before they could leave. Those who made it to the Roman lines were disemboweled because the Romans had learned of their trick. You even had a mother who was caught cooking and eating her baby out of starvation.

The Christians living in the city had a massive church located on Mount Zion. It is estimated that they had 10s of thousands (perhaps as many as 144K?). They stayed together and barricaded themselves to protect themselves from the Jews who wished to kill them. Roman emperor Vespasian originally came and started to surround the city but pulled back when Nero died. At this time the Christians fled over the mountains and went north until the came to the city of Pella, where most settled. According to Josphus, not one Christian died during the Great Tribulation.

 

[PlainWord]

The conditions Jesus describes prior to His return are very different than the conditions going on in 70 AD. There were no people getting married and working in the fields. All the grass and trees for miles around had been burned. What trees there were the Romans cut down to build their barricades. There was no food. People were starving everywhere.

Just prior to when Jesus is revealed from heaven, the conditions mirror those just prior to the Flood and Lot. See below:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

The wicked will be taken to "the Body" where the eagles or vultures have been gathered. A very different "tribulation" awaits them.

 

[miknik5]

Have you ever wanted to know exactly what to look for in the 'end times'?

Well, so did Peter, James, John and Andrew. So they asked Jesus what to look for in the end times.

Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area.

Jesus clarified that He did not know when these events would take place ("no one knows the day or the hour...but on the Father in heaven")...

...therefore, He was instructing Peter, James, John (etc.) to live with an expectation of this event, the Abomination of Desolation...

...which is immediately followed by a period of Great Tribulation...followed by the glorious "Gathering" of the believers, in which we are rescued from this world just in time for god's great day of wrath.

The point I would make is...that if Peter, James and John (the first Christians and the first Christian leaders) lived with this expectation...then so should all the rest of the Christians throughout the the Christian era...YOU AND I!!!

The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:



If you could pull Peter, or James or John aside some 15 or 20 years later after this Olivet Discourse in which Jesus instructed them to live with an expectation of these events...



...and ask them: "Do you still heed the words Jesus gave you that day? Do you still live with the expectation of possibly having to encounter those events?"

As I have repeatedly said -- what ELSE would you expect Peter or James to say other than "well, of COURSE we still heed His words from that day! Why would we not?? Has someone come along with words that contradict Jesus' words? And how could that be possible that someone could contradict Jesus with this so-called 'PreTrib' doctrine you speak of??"

Some of the PreTrib proponents on this discussion board might very well counter with...

"First of all, you guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. So you absolutely HAVE to be PreTrib. And by the way, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...these guys are a pretty big deal".

Peter: "Really? They're a 'big deal'?? Are they bigger than the Lord of Glory?"

-----------------------

Anyway...there it is -- the Rapture explained in two minutes.

It is literally so simple, a child can understand it. As I have stated elsewhere, I had my little 12-year-old daughter read through the Olivet Discourse (the Matthew 24 version). It took her fifteen minutes and afterwards she clearly understood all the pertinent aspects of the end times that every believer needs to understand.

It was amazing to me that someone here chided me for thinking my daughter could actually read the Bible and understand it. An amazingly medieval mindset. The priests back in the 1200's and 1300's kept the Bible translated only in Latin because it was thought that the "little people", the common people like you and I...were 'unqualified to read and study the Scriptures.

So the irony here is...while many of these PreTrib proponents are off in their artificially constructed jungle of unnecessarily complex pseudo-doctrines...with their fourth bowl, fifth horn, third whistle, twelfth Jews Harp, concocted/fabricated Jewish virgin evangelists...on and on and on...

...meanwhile, there is this little child who has a thousand times the understanding of these poor lost PreTrib souls.

Stay out of the jungle. Take fifteen minutes to see Jesus answer the simple questions of Peter, James and John...and who heeded Jesus' words to them throughout the remainder of their lives.

Did you have your daughter read 2 Thessalonians 2?

what was her input on this chapter

 

[miknik5]

The reason I ask this is because who is THE ONE who holds all things back?

Isn't it GOD?
and while HE is on the world, doesn't HE convict the world of sin and judgement?

isnt it only when HE is taken out of the way, that evil can have its full reign with no one to hold it back?

and where is HIS BODY during that time?

 

[miknik5]

Tben, after your daughter reads 2 Thessalonians 2, could you possibly have her read Jesus upper room discourse with regards on THE PROMISE of THE FATHER?

I have a question i'd like to ask


ehar GOD says, is it sure and steadfast and true promises and is it trustworthy for us to believe in the promises of GOD?

 

[Dan_473]

Again, I may not be understanding you. Jesus is shown here in Matthew 24, informing the believers that the first event they should look for is (as you call it) the "AoD". So...who cares what pre-tribbers claim? They haven't proven the existence of their PreTrib rapture to begin with.

They can't arrive at the Olivet Discourse and suddenly claim- oh these believers who will be raptured...are "tribulation saints". That's "circular reasoning" AND "begging the question" both at the same time - LOL.

They can point to no passage anywhere in the Bible where a PreTrib rapture is being taught. The Bible is devoid of a PreTrib passage.

And of course,the 'coup de grâce' -- Jesus is, point-blank, telling the believers the first event to look for is the "AoD"...an event deep inside of the 70th Week. Thus, Game Over for PreTrib.

hmmm... well... I thought the issue was that some believers would see the AoD... and that was why Jesus told Peter to look for it... and that this situation disallowed pre-trib.

but imo, pre-trib also allows for some believers seeing the AoD...

so... ???





is the issue that Jesus means that there is a real chance that Peter himself, personally, would see the AoD?
(not just later readers of the apostles?)

 

[Dan_473]

You keep referring to "200 years". Don't know where you get that number. No, I do NOT have a number. But if you start absorbing a lot of 'alternative news' material, you begin to surmise these things will happen sooner rather than later.

Could be fifty years (or whatever). But could be a year from now. We may very well be already inside the 70th Week, or on the verge.

Just alone from the economic standpoint, all the counter-culture academics (at Mises.org and LewRockwell.com, etc.) are saying it is a mathematical certainty the economies of the Western world cannot hold up much longer. A Bible student ought to surmise trouble of biblical proportions lie ahead.

There is, of course, plenty of trouble to go through even before the actual Antichrist regime. Just look at the first four seals in Revelation 6. The 5th seal is the time of the Antichrist and great tribulation which results in all the martyrdom. Then comes the "wrath of God" (6th seal) and we're outta here. The Antichrist will struggle along, presumably operating from the confines of "the rocks and caves" for the remainder of the 1260 days.

I just picked 200 years because you sounded certain that Americans would see the Antichrist. But in, say, 200 years, there may not be any Americans around. (meaning citizens off the USA.)


' If, as a Bible Christian, you understand 9/11 (and a few other key issues)...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.'

'closing in' makes me think of a few years... maybe ten or twenty at the most... but you're saying the Antichrist cabal may be closing in for the next 50 years? could it be 500 years?

 

[miknik5]

hmmm... well... I thought the issue was that some believers would see the AoD... and that was why Jesus told Peter to look for it... and that this situation disallowed pre-trib.

but imo, pre-trib also allows for some believers seeing the AoD...

so... ???





is the issue that Jesus means that there is a real chance that Peter himself, personally, would see the AoD?
(not just later readers of the apostles?)

JESUS' words addressed all who would believe in HIM
Not just Peter

 

[miknik5]

I just picked 200 years because you sounded certain that Americans would see the Antichrist. But in, say, 200 years, there may not be any Americans around. (meaning citizens off the USA.)


' If, as a Bible Christian, you understand 9/11 (and a few other key issues)...then you understand the Antichrist cabal is closing in.'

'closing in' makes me think of a few years... maybe ten or twenty at the most... but you're saying the Antichrist cabal may be closing in for the next 50 years? could it be 500 years?

Aren't the Jews currently working on planning to build the temple?

in order for the AoD as mentioned in Daniel and 2 Thessalonians 2 to occur, there has to be a re built temple and with the rebuilt temple, the reinstatement of animal sacrifices which is an abomination in and of itself

 

[Dan_473]

What AntiChrist? Do you mean the Man of Sin? All the "false Christs" of Mat 24 are come and gone. Jerusalem was loaded with them during the War of the Jews.

Okay, cool!