The Rapture explained in two minutes

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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that may be true, as i said before im not a trib follower. but do you get what i am saying, does anyone? if times are tough, people are suffering and in need, we should help regardless if you think the trib times are here now or 500 yrs from now, the tribulation times should not be a factor on when you decide to do what Jesus teaches. one should be doing that at all times.
True!
GALATIANS 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I think you may be arguing with a phantom: No one who supports a simple, straightforward interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and believes in carefully heeding Jesus words there...is advocating neglect of people in need. (???) How did you get that impression? The entirety of the New Testament was written by people who lived with this expectation of going into "great tribulation" which Jesus had taught them...yet look at all their promotion of good deeds and charity.

You're certainly free to continue being a bit blasé about "trib" issues...but can you imagine sitting next to Peter, James, John and Andrew as Jesus was delivering this momentous Olivet Discourse...then after Jesus' presentation, you would get up and say "OK. Whatever. Thanks but I'm not a big 'trib follower'. Later, guys."
Do you consider the Olivet Discourse more momentous than other talks? say, the Sermon on the Mount?
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
The reason I ask this is because who is THE ONE who holds all things back?

Isn't it GOD?
and while HE is on the world, doesn't HE convict the world of sin and judgement?

isnt it only when HE is taken out of the way, that evil can have its full reign with no one to hold it back?

and where is HIS BODY during that time?
I'm just wondering - are you proposing there is a contradiction in the Bible? Because...I don't see you rebutting my simple observations about Jesus advisory to Peter, James and John...to look for the Abomination, etc.

So...are you saying there is a post-"Great Tribulation" rapture...AND a PreTrib rapture?

As far as your specific question: Whoever it is who "holds things back"...God does NOT 'leave the scene' because God is omnipresent. He is always everywhere. If He is supposedly in the business of 'holding back' evil worldwide...then why is there evil worldwide? The Lord is currently allowing the Devil and mankind to inflict their evils on the world.

What has been so far "stopped" and prevented specifically (if you look carefully and closely at your text)...is not just "evil" in general, but..."the lawless one"...the Antichrist who will inflict a holocaust on the Jewish people.

Who is protecting the people?

It is my understanding the answer is found in Daniel 12:1 - "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise [literally "will leave" "will stand down"]. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."

In looking at the above verse, even apart from in-depth knowledge of the Hebrew...the immediate context makes it abundantly clear, Michael's role of protection will cease at that time.

You asked. There's my answer, long story short.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Tben, after your daughter reads 2 Thessalonians 2, could you possibly have her read Jesus upper room discourse with regards on THE PROMISE of THE FATHER?

I have a question i'd like to ask


ehar GOD says, is it sure and steadfast and true promises and is it trustworthy for us to believe in the promises of GOD?
OK, OK - enough of the sardonic references to my daughter. And I'm not clear on your "question". What verse or statement in John are you asking about?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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OK, OK - enough of the sardonic references to my daughter. And I'm not clear on your "question". What verse or statement in John are you asking about?
The one where CHRIST promises HE will send "another comforter" who will be with us FOREVER

Even THE SPIRIT of TRUTH
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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The reason I ask you this is because I'm irdet fir all
evil to run rampant, WHO...has to "let go"?

and if HE "lets go" where are we?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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The reason I ask you this is because in order for all
evil to run rampant, WHO...has to "let go"? (2 Thessalonians 2)

and if HE "lets go" where are we?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Please disregard previous post


typo error which I couldn't edit
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
hmmm... well... I thought the issue was that some believers would see the AoD... and that was why Jesus told Peter to look for it... and that this situation disallowed pre-trib.

but imo, pre-trib also allows for some believers seeing the AoD...
OK, here's how this works:

Jesus told Peter, James and John to live with the expectation of possibly living to see the Abomination of Desolation followed by Great Tribulation.

Peter, James and John then passed along that teaching to their followers. When Peter, James and John then eventually died from martyrdom or old age or whatever...their followers now began to pass on this teaching from Jesus.

When they died after a lifetime of teaching the Olivet Discourse...then their students now began to pass on this teaching of...living with an expectation of seeing the Abomination of Desolation (etc.)

Where then is there any room for a PreTrib rapture? The believers, starting with Peter, James and John...were believing and teaching a post-"Great Tribulation rapture/"gathering".

I don't understand what it is you're not understanding. (?)

is the issue that Jesus means that there is a real chance that Peter himself, personally, would see the AoD?
(not just later readers of the apostles?)
Well....of course.(?) Isn't that exactly what Jesus proposed to Peter, James and John? He said they should keep a look-out for these events.

BUT HE ALSO issued the caveat...that HE DID NOT KNOW the "day or hour" of these events...which is the equivalent of saying Peter, James and John might not live to see these events and that therefore it would be susbsequent generations of believers who would enounter the "AoD"...followed by the Great Trib...followed by a post-"Great Trib" rapture.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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OK, here's how this works:

Jesus told Peter, James and John to live with the expectation of possibly living to see the Abomination of Desolation followed by Great Tribulation.

Peter, James and John then passed along that teaching to their followers. When Peter, James and John then eventually died from martyrdom or old age or whatever...their followers now began to pass on this teaching from Jesus.

When they died after a lifetime of teaching the Olivet Discourse...then their students now began to pass on this teaching of...living with an expectation of seeing the Abomination of Desolation (etc.)

Where then is there any room for a PreTrib rapture? The believers, starting with Peter, James and John...were believing and teaching a post-"Great Tribulation rapture/"gathering".

I don't understand what it is you're not understanding. (?)

Well....of course.(?) Isn't that exactly what Jesus proposed to Peter, James and John? He said they should keep a look-out for these events.

BUT HE ALSO issued the caveat...that HE DID NOT KNOW the "day or hour" of these events...which is the equivalent of saying Peter, James and John might not live to see these events and that therefore it would be susbsequent generations of believers who would enounter the "AoD"...followed by the Great Trib...followed by a post-"Great Trib" rapture.
HIS WORDS and forewarning to "overcome" and to wait was to all HIS DISCIPLES KES:

those yesterday, those today, and those tomorrow

so that we would wait so that when the day does come we won't be taken by surprise but will REMAIN in HIM and not GO OUT from HIM
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Do you bring into your argument Revelation 1 through 3?

Do you consider all of SCRIPTURE?
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
The one where CHRIST promises HE will send "another comforter" who will be with us FOREVER

Even THE SPIRIT of TRUTH
OK. I agree with that. How would you see that connecting to our discussion?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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OK. I agree with that. How would you see that connecting to our discussion?
Because in order for one to be of HIS BODY, they are born of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

If HE promises HIS BODY of believers that HE would not leave us (as orphans) where are we when HE who hold all things back is taken out of the way
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Do you bring into your argument Revelation 1 through 3?

Do you consider all of SCRIPTURE?
Sure I do! I believe, in fact, the Olivet Disocurse is virtually like the Rosetta Stone to the Book of Revelation. It is the interpretation key to Revelation. Once you understand and accept the Olivet Discourse at simple face value...the Book of Revelation opens up like a can of peaches, in my experience.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding the rebuilding of the earthly temple?
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Because in order for one to be of HIS BODY, they are born of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

If HE promises HIS BODY of believers that HE would not leave us (as orphans) where are we when HE who hold all things back is taken out of the way
I think you missed my post about Michael the Archangel? A few posts back. And my other argument...that God's Spirit never leaves anywhere. He is omnipresent.

Did you see those comments?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Sure I do! I believe, in fact, the Olivet Disocurse is virtually like the Rosetta Stone to the Book of Revelation. It is the interpretation key to Revelation. Once you understand and accept the Olivet Discourse at simple face value...the Book of Revelation opens up like a can of peaches, in my experience.
Actually
just as HIS WORD says, no one can interpret anything unless he is born again
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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It isn't your personal experience or somehow your intellect or ability that has any part in understanding GOS WOHust as 1 Corinthians 1 through 2 explains

and just as it is written in HIS upper room discourse that a time will come when HE will no longer speak to us in peoverbs

and just as HE stated the secrets of the kingdom are not given to all
ans one can't even see the Kingdom of GOD unless he is born again
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding the rebuilding of the earthly temple?
I kind of don't want to go on that tangent at the moment. Maybe later, if I have time!
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
It isn't your personal experience or somehow your intellect or ability that has any part in understanding GOS WOHust as 1 Corinthians 1 through 2 explains

and just as it is written in HIS upper room discourse that a time will come when HE will no longer speak to us in peoverbs

and just as HE stated the secrets of the kingdom are not given to all
ans one can't even see the Kingdom of GOD unless he is born again
I think you're getting a lot of typos. I'm not following you. Sorry.