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T1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not beyet. 8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
P
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I am pretrib,and that statement harmonizes Just fine with a pretrib rapture
The AC is revealed,believers are rounded up,the chatter is "when is the rapture",some loose faith,then a few days into that,Jesus raptures his bride,and those left behind go on to face the AC and either accept the mark or get their heads removed.That is a pretrib rapture right under yours and the AC's noses.
In case you forgot,we both believe Jesus returns postrib,and there is a gathering at that time.
So,as usual ,you are way off,and don't know what we believe.
I am pretrib,and that statement harmonizes Just fine with a pretrib rapture
The AC is revealed,believers are rounded up,the chatter is "when is the rapture",some loose faith,then a few days into that,Jesus raptures his bride,and those left behind go on to face the AC and either accept the mark or get their heads removed.That is a pretrib rapture right under yours and the AC's noses.
In case you forgot,we both believe Jesus returns postrib,and there is a gathering at that time.
So,as usual ,you are way off,and don't know what we believe.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
When they say Peace and safety is when the 7 years period will begin,and God is going to allow that temptation to try all them that dwell on earth,as the world comes together and tries to achieve peace on earth,and it is not according to the operation of God,and they get worse from there.
So the saints will be on earth when the 7 years period begins,and Paul said the elect will not be deceived by them,and Jesus will deliver them from that temptation.
The world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth.
The beast has power to rule,and have his way,for the last three and one half years.
So God will not pour out His wrath on them until the 7 years period is up.
There is only two resurrection,one of the saints before the millennial reign,and one after the millennial reign of the dead to be judged.
Also the tribulation,persecution,is for the saints,not the world,and God is not going against them for the 7 years period,but after the 7 years period.
When they say Peace and safety,that is when the 7 years period will begin,and Paul said that the elect will be on earth,for they will not be deceived when they say Peace and safety,and Jesus said He will deliver them from that temptation that shall try all them that dwell on earth,for it is a decision point for the world,and the hypocrites,but the elect will not be deceived,and will not be tempted.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
When they say Peace and safety is when the 7 years period will begin,and God is going to allow that temptation to try all them that dwell on earth,as the world comes together and tries to achieve peace on earth,and it is not according to the operation of God,and they get worse from there.
So the saints will be on earth when the 7 years period begins,and Paul said the elect will not be deceived by them,and Jesus will deliver them from that temptation.
The world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth.
The beast has power to rule,and have his way,for the last three and one half years.
So God will not pour out His wrath on them until the 7 years period is up.
There is only two resurrection,one of the saints before the millennial reign,and one after the millennial reign of the dead to be judged.
Also the tribulation,persecution,is for the saints,not the world,and God is not going against them for the 7 years period,but after the 7 years period.
When they say Peace and safety,that is when the 7 years period will begin,and Paul said that the elect will be on earth,for they will not be deceived when they say Peace and safety,and Jesus said He will deliver them from that temptation that shall try all them that dwell on earth,for it is a decision point for the world,and the hypocrites,but the elect will not be deceived,and will not be tempted.
we read the Olivet Disocurse differently.
I see a progression in the way the different accounts describe the scene
LUKE 21:7 The disciples asked him, "Teacher, when will this happen? What will be the sign when all this will occur?"
MATTHEW 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will this happen? What will be the sign that you are coming again, and when will the world come to an end?"
MARK 13:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives facing the temple buildings, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,
four disciples were probably at the fore, but even they probably weren't speaking in unison like a chorus.
I understand the 'you' to be similar to how it's used here
MATTHEW 16:2 He responded to them, "In the evening you say that the weather will be fine because the sky is red.
it doesn't mean that every Pharisee and Sadducee said those exact words.
imo, all these situations are using a general You.
so, anyone who sees the AoD could remember those words and know to flee.
I see a progression in the way the different accounts describe the scene
LUKE 21:7 The disciples asked him, "Teacher, when will this happen? What will be the sign when all this will occur?"
MATTHEW 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will this happen? What will be the sign that you are coming again, and when will the world come to an end?"
MARK 13:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives facing the temple buildings, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,
four disciples were probably at the fore, but even they probably weren't speaking in unison like a chorus.
I understand the 'you' to be similar to how it's used here
MATTHEW 16:2 He responded to them, "In the evening you say that the weather will be fine because the sky is red.
it doesn't mean that every Pharisee and Sadducee said those exact words.
imo, all these situations are using a general You.
so, anyone who sees the AoD could remember those words and know to flee.
M
What "progression"? I'm not making heads or tails out of what you're saying. I read your selected verses. Where's the "progression?
Again, I have not a clue what you're trying to say. I assume you're trying to somehow desperately preserve the PreTrib fantasy? Somehow just to give it the slimmest chance?
Again, I have not a clue what you're trying to say. I assume you're trying to somehow desperately preserve the PreTrib fantasy? Somehow just to give it the slimmest chance?
the progression is
the disciples
the disciples privately
the four disciples privately
***************
I'm saying that when Jesus says
' So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel'
it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.
the disciples
the disciples privately
the four disciples privately
***************
I'm saying that when Jesus says
' So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel'
it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.
M
But it doesn't "progress" in that fashion. The added detail about there being only the four disciples comes in the second Gospel - the Gospel of Mark. There is no sequence such as you're claiming...and I don't have a clue what your argument is to begin with! You've lost me completely.
The Bible makes it clear, there were only these four disciples present. Matthew and Luke don't clarify...don't add this detail. But Mark does. Either Mark is accurate or it is inaccurate. I'm leaning towards the former since we're dealing with the divinely inspired and infallible Word of God.
So Jesus was lying? You're not thinking this through too well. When He said "you" will suffer persecution and death (etc.)...Jesus wasn't "necessarily" telling the accurate truth?
And so you're back to the "false doctrine" thing. Jesus said they should expect this to happen...and that's why He addressed them directly...but then also conceded they might NOT experience these things because He did not know "the hour or day".
But you're arguing this is false. That this wasn't "necessarily" true. You've gotten jumbled up somehow.
And the kicker is...I don't have the first foggy clue where you are trying to take this. Somehow pull PreTrib doctrine out of the fire or something? How would you be doing that? PreTrib is still DOA - Jesus, in direct contradiction to PreTrib...tells the believers to look out for the "AoD". Game Over.
The Bible makes it clear, there were only these four disciples present. Matthew and Luke don't clarify...don't add this detail. But Mark does. Either Mark is accurate or it is inaccurate. I'm leaning towards the former since we're dealing with the divinely inspired and infallible Word of God.
So Jesus was lying? You're not thinking this through too well. When He said "you" will suffer persecution and death (etc.)...Jesus wasn't "necessarily" telling the accurate truth?
And so you're back to the "false doctrine" thing. Jesus said they should expect this to happen...and that's why He addressed them directly...but then also conceded they might NOT experience these things because He did not know "the hour or day".
But you're arguing this is false. That this wasn't "necessarily" true. You've gotten jumbled up somehow.
And the kicker is...I don't have the first foggy clue where you are trying to take this. Somehow pull PreTrib doctrine out of the fire or something? How would you be doing that? PreTrib is still DOA - Jesus, in direct contradiction to PreTrib...tells the believers to look out for the "AoD". Game Over.
M
You cannot make any such claim. One can assume that anything that inadvertently shed light on the timing...would be adequately obscured so as to keep truthful and accurate the statement Jesus made about the "hour and day". Isn't that a no-brainer? Jesus is either truthful and accurate about the "hour and day"...or He is untruthful and inaccurate. What are you struggling with here? LOL
Don't know how you're coming up with what you think Jesus did or did not know at the time of His Olivet Discourse. Nothing had been explained about Pentecost at the time of the Olivet discoure...and we know for a fact that Jesus in His human form and during His earthly ministry had, at times, limited Himself in terms of His knowledge...with the "day and hour" comment as one example.
And again, what point could you possibly be making? I'm stumped. Are you just 'playing around' at this point?
Don't know how you're coming up with what you think Jesus did or did not know at the time of His Olivet Discourse. Nothing had been explained about Pentecost at the time of the Olivet discoure...and we know for a fact that Jesus in His human form and during His earthly ministry had, at times, limited Himself in terms of His knowledge...with the "day and hour" comment as one example.
And again, what point could you possibly be making? I'm stumped. Are you just 'playing around' at this point?
In all three accounts, JESUS openly addressed HIS disciples (there is no addressing by name each of HIS DISCIPLES present...nothing is said in the first paragraph of each of these accounts who m, by name, was present...only HIS DISCIPLES)
Later, however, it is mentioned that these four disciples came to HIM...LATER...and...PRIVATELY to ask HIM more about what HE said
I don't know what the argument is but for you to insist it was only the four disciples?
no..,I don't agree. Because that is not clearly said
Later, however, it is mentioned that these four disciples came to HIM...LATER...and...PRIVATELY to ask HIM more about what HE said
I don't know what the argument is but for you to insist it was only the four disciples?
no..,I don't agree. Because that is not clearly said
I'll say it one more time..... In Matthew & Mark, Jesus is talking to the disciples as they are walking to and setting on the Mount of Olives.
Luke on the other hand is different. It is of a teaching of Jesus to the people in the temple. .
There is a difference and it is prescented differently.
I think if you will read it as that you will see.
Mark is the second Gospel by tradition, it's not a scriptural thing, imo.
the 'privately' could mean apart from the other disciples, or apart from the crowds. Comparing the other Gospel accounts, the second looks better to me.
my point is as I write above---
I'm saying that when Jesus says
' So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel'
it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.
'Jesus wasn't "necessarily" telling the accurate truth?' He was telling the truth. But the language doesn't require all (or any) disciples to have the possibility of seeing the AoD.
I'm not trying to pull anything out of a fire. If you are unable to follow what I'm saying, then I'm happy leafing it at this--- as I read it, it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.
the 'privately' could mean apart from the other disciples, or apart from the crowds. Comparing the other Gospel accounts, the second looks better to me.
my point is as I write above---
I'm saying that when Jesus says
' So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel'
it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.
'Jesus wasn't "necessarily" telling the accurate truth?' He was telling the truth. But the language doesn't require all (or any) disciples to have the possibility of seeing the AoD.
I'm not trying to pull anything out of a fire. If you are unable to follow what I'm saying, then I'm happy leafing it at this--- as I read it, it doesn't necessarily mean that those immediately present had a possibility of seeing the AoD.