Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Depleted]

Some people are robots who see God as some kind of robot too.

This is what happens when love is crushed out of people, and they don't cope well.

They replace the basic idea that God is Love, so that they can make God's laws anything but to do with the painful subject of love. However love is the law above all the others.

I guess some people find it easier to love an inanimate object or a non-sentient being, because it is a reflection of what they have become.

You'd think a human robot would have made the news.

 

[Depleted]

It's obvious from what I wrote I don't believe everyone will be saved. I believe it's the way we interpret predestined that is the problem. I believe God predestined us to be in Christ. All those that believe are conformed to His image. Simple. He doesn't choose some for hell as some try to say.

Then what happens to the ones who aren't saved? And how come God gets no choice with them?

 

[wsblind]

Yeah, we have to be TAUGHT that God elects and predestines His creatures to hell. Because it ain't biblical.

 

[Laish]

Is there any such thing as someone being redeemed and then immediately getting election/predestination? I've never been around someone reborn connected to a reformed church to find out. (Then again, I haven't been around at the moment someone was reborn anyway.) But most the people I know who trust in election didn't believe it at the beginning. (OP and I took around 20 years to get there. lol)

I did not know I was Reformed until about a year after I came to believe. I searched for a Church congregation that fit in what I understood from reading my bible. Up until then the only Calvin I knew of had a stuffed tiger named Hobbes for a friend .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Depleted]

I don’t believe in predestination. There is too many places in scripture where God gives people a choice. He gives us all a choice between life and death. It is up to each one of us which choice we will make. We shape our own life and fate with our choice of whether to believe in him and accept him into our lives or not. I don’t think that the outcome is set in stone or that God chooses to save some and not others…He gives us a choice and the outcome is according to our choice. God is not a respecter of persons.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The only place in scripture where there is an open declaration to choose, and yet, the dude who said that had been chosen by God decades before. AND the ones who went with him? ALSO already chosen by God -- since before they were born, (specifically because the parent's screwed up and God told them this is what would happen.) How about that? We get to choose God AFTER he chooses us.

 

[Depleted]

If God can make a donkey talk, surely He can give us conviction of sins by making the Gospel clear in our hearts to decide on.

It's a shame really..... some of those that believe grace can do anything all of a sudden says it can't.

Yup. He's made donkeys talk more than once. He saves jackasses. (Those saved by God were specifically chosen because we are the weak, the helpless, the useless, the undesirables. Basically we are the jackasses that God turned into Arabian horses.)

You just made our case for us. Yup. God's grace saves, not Man's chose.

 

[Depleted]

I can’t imagine anyone coming before God with a broken heart asking for forgiveness and to be saved, and God telling them no because he had predestined and chose to send them to hell without giving them any chance for salvation.

That just isn’t the kind of God I serve. He is a loving, merciful, and forgiving God. I know not everyone will be saved, but that is not his will…it’s on each individual person and their own will and choice.

It is not God’s will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Covered. More than once in scripture. John 6:35-40 is a good example. He turns no one away, however no one comes without the Father choosing the person also.

 

[wsblind]

I don’t believe in predestination. There is too many places in scripture where God gives people a choice. He gives us all a choice between life and death. It is up to each one of us which choice we will make. We shape our own life and fate with our choice of whether to believe in him and accept him into our lives or not. I don’t think that the outcome is set in stone or that God chooses to save some and not others…He gives us a choice and the outcome is according to our choice. God is not a respecter of persons.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Predestination is a biblical concept and true.

Just that it is NOT what the majority teach.

Predestination is what a BELIEVER is predestined to IF they believe and are saved.

It is not predestined to salvation or hell. These folks don't know about the righteousness of God.

 

[Depleted]

Things get a bit depressing if you combine two popoular BDF claims

- "We are predestined"
(Whether you admit it or not, if some are predestined for heaven, the others are automatically destined to hell)

- "Those who are save never sins"

so then... if a Christian sins, he knows he is predestined to hell... and he can just give up on God ... right?
No? Then how do you stand for both views?

IDK. You'll have to find a sinless Calvinist to answer that. And, good luck with that, because we reformed folks are the first to admit we sin. lol

 

[Depleted]

The enemy uses every trick in the book to convince people not to be saved.

When I was under conviction and wanting to be saved...the devil knew that I believed in God and that trying to tell me he wasn't real wasn't going to work... so he came at me with you can't be saved you are not one of the chosen ones you are predestined for hell. Which was a lie and a trick? I don't think some people realize how dangerous of a doctrine this predestination, or some are chosen and some are not, really is.

He does use every trick in the book, including the ego so we can say, "As for me? I chose God! God couldn't do it without me."

And, seriously, dude? Why would he come at you with predestination if you don't believe in predestination? Seems to me that's like tricking me with the Easter Bunny. You can't trick me into believing in the Easter bunny simply because I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Wouldn't it be stupid to try to convince me there is an Easter Bunny? And yet, that's what you're trying to claim that the devil tried to trick you with something you don't believe in the first place.

Know what that sounds like? Melodrama to prove you're extra special. (Or the reality of you're making this up to prove a point.)

 

[wsblind]

Things get a bit depressing if you combine two popoular BDF claims

- "We are predestined"
(Whether you admit it or not, if some are predestined for heaven, the others are automatically destined to hell)

- "Those who are save never sins"

so then... if a Christian sins, he knows he is predestined to hell... and he can just give up on God ... right?
No? Then how do you stand for both views?

I am of the elect and God might choose you too?. It doesn't get much more arrogant than that.

 

[Depleted]

There are only two options! : Saved - Not saved

If God does not elect someone to be saved, by default they are not saved right? So then He DOES predestine them to hell

and when people ALSO claim that "Someone who is saved never sins", that means sin is proof someone is NOT saved,
and if they believe in predestination, that must means they are destined NOT to be saved, thus to hell. Simple

Which is why I think it is nonsense

Let me know how that turns out if you ever find such a person. I'm curious how they'd answer that one too. lol

That said, are you playing some kind of game here? We're talking about predestination and you bring up sinlessness. Kind of like me saying "I will never believe in speaking in tongues because some tongue speakers think they're sinless."
A. Ummm, never met those kinds of people to know what that's like.
B. We were talking about tongues, not sinlessness, so not believing in tongues because someone thinks they are sinless is a pretty dumb reason not to believe in tongues.

 

[Depleted]

I'm sorry, but I just can't swallow the theory of predestination. We all have the chance to be saved, but we have to believe and have faith in order to be saved. I think the doctrine of predestination could potentially give the enemy room to try and cast a doubt and cause some not to believe in the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ah, and now God has been replaced with chance. Is this a lottery game? Dice? Slot machines? What games of chance saves someone?

 

[wsblind]

I can’t imagine anyone coming before God with a broken heart asking for forgiveness and to be saved, and God telling them no because he had predestined and chose to send them to hell without giving them any chance for salvation.

That just isn’t the kind of God I serve. He is a loving, merciful, and forgiving God. I know not everyone will be saved, but that is not his will…it’s on each individual person and their own will and choice.

It is not God’s will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus Christ and the Father are one.

New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[Depleted]

You don't know me, bro. I don't play games. I'm a fierce warrior for the Gospel and yet be that as it may I have much to learn. I did not understand the conjunction aspect of his sentence. I do however understand that he's a smug aristocrat who often looks down at others. I'm here to share and learn, and I'm not beyond making mistakes. I appreciate what you've shared. Thanks for the help.

I do know you. You play games often. Your warrior hasn't been fierce, except about politics, since I've known you. You haven't preach the gospel since I've known you. You do play smug most the time though, like now, and that's about the way you share. And I've known you for two years!

 

[Johnny_B]

Here is God commanding all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30-31

Can a God who choses you before hand not to be with Him then turn around and then command them to repent? This is a schizophrenic "god". This "god" violates the very character and nature of our loving Father.

The heart/mind of man cannot trust a being that is like this.

He not only commands them to repent - then He says He will judge them by Jesus Christ even though He has chosen them and forced them not to believe in the very thing that He is now going to judge them with. He would have to judge Himself and throw Himself into hell for this type of behavior and injustice.

No, the truth is that the God of all justice will do what is right and display His righteousness to all men/women/people/humans/homo sapiens.

Acts 17:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The real God has given assurance unto all men of His righteousness in Christ by raising Jesus from the dead.

What Jesus said here is still true today. "Is anyone thirsty? Let him come to Me and drink." Anyone in the Greek means anyone...

John 7:37-39 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

[SUP]39 [/SUP] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Amen. With that we need to take the whole of Scripture. God always, chose, called before they made the decision, it has always been that way and it will stay that way. God is doing what He's always done it's in His nature, like He did with Abram, before Abram it was Noah, He called they responded and as you can see it's not of faith, because his faith was in other gods, as you can see by Abram's lifestyle. He isn't looking for any good in them because He knows they don't have any. When Bible talks about "good" it's in the same line as how Jesus answered the rich young ruler, "why do you call Me good, none are good, but One". Sure men can do good toward other men, but before God, no one is good or can do good, it would be better to say none are righteous and none can do righteous thing before God, His standard of righteousness, not ours. Read post # 279 to see how God see us in our sinful state. Back to Abraham.

Joshua 24:2-3 "And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac."

First the Lord took him, then He's led Abram to the promise land, God always initiates the first action, when they first meeting. The reason it's so hard for westerns to understand the wedding ceremony and the events leading up to it, is because we chose our own brides, in the near east, the father chooses the bride. Just as the Father chooses the Bride for His Son, does that mean that He specifically chooses the other women to not be the Sons Bride? No! As Spurgeon said, everyone is fine with picking their own bride, but have a problem with Christ choosing His or His Father choosing Her. So there is no double election.

The biggest misunderstanding is Romans 9:22, where the idea of double election comes from "What if God," it's not a conjunction, like in other places in the Bible for example, Colossians 1:23 "he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." He is using it as a conditional clause in Romans 9:22 to introduce a hypothetical question. That's another reason I don't believe in double predestination/election and why I'm not a Calvinist.

What is the message of Colossians 1:22-23?Paul is relying the same message as John is in his first epistle second chapter 19th verse. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." John is using the if in this verse as a conditional clause. What Paul is conveying there in Colossians is the full message that John is speaking of, not continuing in the faith is a sign that you were never part of the faith, "but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not with us."

Now God has explain it further for us, in that He predestines, because of His foreknowledge and those He foreknew, He called, justified, glorified. When it comes to the Gospels you have to keep in mind that the Jews were all called because of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, their forefathers. Deuteronomy 4:37 “And because he loved your fathers and chose their offspring after them and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence, by his great power,”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

He didn't chose them for any special reason other then He set His great love on them, because He chose their fathers and them, because of His love. Not because they were anything great or were large in number. It's just because He set His love on them, without partiality. If God doesn't call you or chose you, you are not going to respond to His message because the call or message is not coming form Him. This verse came alive to me the other day, we were in Him, when we heard, the Word of truth, we believed and sealed by the Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"

 

[Depleted]

Oh look! It speaks. Thanks for the love, sunshine. I have more Christian faith in my pinky toenail than you do in the hateful abyss of yours you call a soul. But I digress. Carry on.

We are works in progress. Remember that.

And more of that cold heart again you're well known for. I'm an it now? I wish your pinky toenail would show up occasionally.

 

[wsblind]

I'm sorry, but I just can't swallow the theory of predestination. We all have the chance to be saved, but we have to believe and have faith in order to be saved. I think the doctrine of predestination could potentially give the enemy room to try and cast a doubt and cause some not to believe in the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Predestination is not theory. It is biblical fact.

Predestination of salvation or hell is theory. And a horrible one.

Predestination is the the fact that we are predestined to be adopted and conformed to His image IF we believe On the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation.

 

[Depleted]

How's that hate working out for ya?

How's your hate working out for me? My life is going exactly how God planned it. I am, however, praying God reveals himself to you so you can enjoy love, instead of hate.

 

[Depleted]

if I am in a storm, and totally unable to save myself.. Yet am too proud to allow someone to save me and die.. I have no one to blame but myself

If in the same situation. I humble myself and allow him to save me,, I can not be proud because I chose to allow someone to save me,, I can have pride in the savior. but not myself..

I will never understand where the thinking comes that people can be proud because they humbled themselves and came to the cross and allowed it to save them. Because they realized, they could not save themselves.

The proud will die, because they continue to try to save self..

Reread first post. We're not stuck in a storm fearful of death. We're rotting corpses at the bottom of the ocean. "Dead in sin." Not "panicked in sin." Not "tired of sin." Not "passed out in sin." DEAD. So here's the scenario you got caught in a storm and died...

And then you what?
-- Signaled the rescue ship? You can't. Dead men can't signal.

-- Humbled yourself? You can't. Dead don't do humble!

-- Took the gift? You can't. You were dead so can't use your arms.

When Lazarus was raised from the dead, he got up and walked out of his tomb. When God raises us from dead in sin, we got up, thanked him generously, begged his forgiveness, and followed.