Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Marano

Marano

Senior Member
#481
Dec 7, 2011
398
32
28
29
#481
John146 said:
Man's faith does not save, but putting one's trust in the God who can. Jesus Christ saves those who call upon Him.
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 12:3 (KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The only way for someone to put their trust in Christ is through the holy spirit doing a supernatural work in their hearts, such is the nature of man.

Romans 3:11 (KJV) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#482
#482
Stunnedbygrace said:
I haven't said some were created only to be rejected no matter what they do. I have specifically said I don't know who He will grant repentance and faith to, and so I don't condemn anyone. I have been given such great riches. I won't use this gift to then turn and condemn anyone. (The only way I could do that is if I earned it in some way.) God judges. I take it to heart that I will be judged as I have judged. If I judge someone won't be shown mercy, I am condemning myself.
Click to expand...
The point those of us who don't believe in predestination are trying to make is that as long as the only two options are saved and not saved, choosing to save some automatically means the ones not chosen are unsaved - and thus go to hell.
A bit like if everyone is poisoned, and you choose to give antidote only to some, even if you have enough to give it to all.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#483
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#483
1ofthem said:
Faith and grace goes hand in hand. God extends mercy to all...We can choose to believe and accept grace or not. He won't force it on anyone.
Click to expand...
Aha...here's where we maybe diverge from one another...
Saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves...
I did have a long conversation with a man who thought "that not of yourselves" referred to the grace, not to the faith. But to me, that is silly. Of course Gods' grace is not of myself. No one even has the thought that maybe Gods' kindness was from themselves. So I believe it is referring to the faith. It's the only way that makes sense. So I see the faith to be "and that not of yourself." You seem to think like that man thought, that it is the kindness of God that did not come from you - not the faith. But does that make sense to you? Does anyone say: hmm...maybe Gods' kindness came from me...?
 
Marano

Marano

Senior Member
#484
Dec 7, 2011
398
32
28
29
#484
wwjd_kilden said:
The point those of us who don't believe in predestination are trying to make is that as long as the only two options are saved and not saved, choosing to save some automatically means the ones not chosen are unsaved - and thus go to hell.
A bit like if everyone is poisoned, and you choose to give antidote only to some, even if you have enough to give it to all.
Click to expand...
It's God's mercy that saves, everyone is born with a sinful nature and everyone is born condemned already so God is not less just for saving some and let others go about their sinful busines, it's his grace that saves some, the elect.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#485
#485
Marano said:
It's God's mercy that saves, everyone is born with a sinful nature and everyone is born condemned already so God is not less just for saving some and let others go about their sinful busines, it's his grace that saves some, the elect.
Click to expand...
but why? Random choice? Did he pick our names from a hat?
 
1ofthem

1ofthem

Senior Member
#486
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
113
#486
Stunnedbygrace said:
Aha...here's where we maybe diverge from one another...
Saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves...
I did have a long conversation with a man who thought "that not of yourselves" referred to the grace, not to the faith. But to me, that is silly. Of course Gods' grace is not of myself. No one even has the thought that maybe Gods' kindness was from themselves. So I believe it is referring to the faith. It's the only way that makes sense. So I see the faith to be "and that not of yourself." You seem to think like that man thought, that it is the kindness of God that did not come from you - not the faith. But does that make sense to you? Does anyone say: hmm...maybe Gods' kindness came from me...?
Click to expand...
It is the gift of God and with any gift it can be accepted or rejected...


And saved by Grace through faith... says it all
 
Last edited:
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#487
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#487
wwjd_kilden said:
The point those of us who don't believe in predestination are trying to make is that as long as the only two options are saved and not saved, choosing to save some automatically means the ones not chosen are unsaved - and thus go to hell.
A bit like if everyone is poisoned, and you choose to give antidote only to some, even if you have enough to give it to all.
Click to expand...
Yes, I clearly see where the reasoning has gone. I just don't think the reasoning is sound if it can't tie in the difficult verses that seem to be in opposition to it.

For instance, saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves. So if one states, in opposition, that it was in fact their faith, that was of themselves, I believe something is wrong. And then there is: I chose you. You did not choose Me. So if one states that they did in fact choose Him, that is in opposition, so I think something is wrong.

If it doesn't work all together, then more work is needed, in my opinion.
 
Marano

Marano

Senior Member
#488
Dec 7, 2011
398
32
28
29
#488
wwjd_kilden said:
but why? Random choice? Did he pick our names from a hat?
Click to expand...
God is sovereign to choose according to His infinite wisdom and knowledge, he's an eternal God, how am I to know how he chooses? To me it's always been by grace, and I don't know how we explain grace if not by unmerited favor.
 
Marano

Marano

Senior Member
#489
Dec 7, 2011
398
32
28
29
#489
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, I clearly see where the reasoning has gone. I just don't think the reasoning is sound if it can't tie in the difficult verses that seem to be in opposition to it.

For instance, saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves. So if one states, in opposition, that it was in fact their faith, that was of themselves, I believe something is wrong. And then there is: I chose you. You did not choose Me. So if one states that they did in fact choose Him, that is in opposition, so I think something is wrong.

If it doesn't work all together, then more work is needed, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I agree saving faith is a gift of God, so that no one should boast about accepting God's gift of salvation, faith comes from God.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#490
#490
Is faith really what people believe is granted to a person, sounds like a cop out...

Knock knock, who's there, I'm sorry I don't know you until I give you the faith to knock... Yea I'm crazy lol...
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#492
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#492
This is what must happen - this "god" goes around and picks and chooses people and says - Heaven for you. It's hell for you. Heaven for you. It's hell for you. It's heaven for you. It's hell for you...etc.

IMO this whole thing violates the very reason of the "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is a direct violation of the nature and character of God.

But as I say - this whole predestination thing has as much use as knowing the ant population in the Amazon. But in hindsight - it does serve a purpose - only it is not of God

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved ( Except for you - you have to go to hell despite the fact that Jesus took away your sin and offers you the free gift of grace and the gift of righteousness )

The devil just loves this doctrine. He uses it to ruin the faith of believers and ship-wrecked their faith and mentally torments them and their families.
 
Johnny_B

Johnny_B

Senior Member
#493
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#493
eternally-gratefull said:
I disagree, God did not make me alive while I was still dead because of sin.. He made me alive because he washed my sin away. (Justification porecedes regeneration, it has to in my view)
Click to expand...
Okay, because He made every called out one alive with Him, while they were dead in trespasses and sin. If you reversed that we would agree.
eternally-gratefull said:
I came to God, because God drew me knowing I would respond.. I believed because I chose to. Not because he gave me some magic power to.
Click to expand...
You got two out of three right.
eternally-gratefull said:
He calls many, but only few follow.. He does not call many, because he already knows no matter what he does. They will never respond.
Click to expand...
Again two out of three.
eternally-gratefull said:
There was grace in the OT.. God did not give Isreal the land, until the sin of the Ameritech was complete (there was no chance of anyone turning to God) as long as their was hope, he would not destroy them, same with soddom and Gomorrah.
Click to expand...
Give me the Scriptures, that says what you are saying, here. Please no more philosophy, can you make you point with Scripture, because what I believe and what you believe without Scripture doesn't mean anything it's just talk.
 
Johnny_B

Johnny_B

Senior Member
#494
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#494
Stephen63 said:
I see your point.

As a matter of fact, if predestination of saved souls were true, praying for someone's salvation could be against God's will.
Click to expand...
Can you post the Scripture(s) for this or is this just what you think? Thanks.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#495
#495
Grace777x70 said:
This is what must happen - this "god" goes around and picks and chooses people and says - Heaven for you. It's hell for you. Heaven for you. It's hell for you. It's heaven for you. It's hell for you...etc.

IMO this whole thing violates the very reason of the "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is a direct violation of the nature and character of God.

But as I say - this whole predestination thing has as much use as knowing the ant population in the Amazon. But in hindsight - it does serve a purpose - only it is not of God

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved ( Except for you - you have to go to hell despite the fact that Jesus took away your sin and offers you the free gift of grace and the gift of righteousness )

The devil just loves this doctrine. He uses it to ruin the faith of believers and ship-wrecked their faith and mentally torments them and their families.
Click to expand...
I agree G7, this predestination thing is way morbid, I believe when the Lord said all who call upon him, He meant all people not some here and some there.

Roman 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Psalm 145:18
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#496
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#496
BeyondET said:
I agree G7, this predestination thing is way morbid, I believe when the Lord said all who call upon him, He meant all people not some here and some there.

Roman 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Psalm 145:18
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
Click to expand...
I agree....The enemy comes and says - "This is for others - it is not for you or your family"
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#497
Jan 13, 2016
16,742
3,555
113
#497
valiant said:
And those who call on Him are His elect (Rom 8.29-30) :)
Click to expand...
They are part of His elect after they call upon Him...Jesus Christ is God's elect way unto salvation. Isaiah 42
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#498
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#498
1ofthem said:
I really cannot wrap my head around this predestination thing...You are saying you don't know who God will grant forgiveness too, but you are sure you are one of those elect, right. So why even worry about being shown mercy...If you are elected you should have no worries, right. It's all those other folks in the world who may or may not be elected who should worry, right:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The elect might do well to have more worries than they do in my opinion. There is a verse I've been thinking hard on lately that says: If you were blind you would not be guilty of sin, but since you say you can see, your guilt remains.

I think more is required of those who have received more. If I condemn a blind man, I shudder to think what could happen to me, because I am always finding new hypocrisies in myself. Condemning a blind man while claiming to see myself, while at the same time being in blindness in many areas. It's great lack of humility that would state who is saved and who is not. Who made me the judge of that? I refuse the job. I am quite sure many would have called me unsaved if they could have seen how readily I murdered in my heart while smiling to your face - and I was a murderer for many years after I received the Spirit. Sealed with His Spirit, yet a serial murderer still. Angry and resentful all the time if my toes were stepped on. Very concerned about my honor and my respect. Yet I communed with Him often. He was patient. He led me. He disciplined me.

I think the elect should worry more about their own hypocrisies and inconsistencies than to worry over who is or will be saved and who will not. It's above our pay grade.
 
Utah

Utah

Banned
#499
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#499
Depleted said:
How's your hate working out for me? My life is going exactly how God planned it. I am, however, praying God reveals himself to you so you can enjoy love, instead of hate.
Click to expand...
Thank you; that's very kind of you. Sharpening your political skills I see.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#500
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#500
1ofthem said:
It is the gift of God and with any gift it can be accepted or rejected...


And saved by Grace through faith... says it all
Click to expand...
Then we should change it to saved by grace through my own choice, and that choice of myself so I can boast that I am going to heaven because of my wise choice and others are going to hell because of their unwise choice. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.