Are we justified by works?

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Apr 30, 2016
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Not the last time I checked. Official Roman Catholic doctrine has not changed. Most of my family still attends the Roman Catholic church and they are still clinging to the same gospel of works that they have always clinged to from the beginning.
Right.
They are the "older folk" !!

You must know that this is not an easy concept to grasp.

I would like to say, however, that if someone believes in Jesus as the Christ, believes in the Apostles Creed with their heart, and are doing all the good works to their hearts content - I do believe that they will be with the wheat.

I believe that our love for our Lord saves us, NOT our doctrine. Our doctrine could be very wrong, but if we love Jesus we will be saved.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Good. Now let me ask you. Do you think there are tares who "think" they are wheat?
Or put in another way, is it possible for someone to be deceived?
Thats a good question.

Yes I think that can be the case. I think the reason why is because they don't know what being wheat is.
Here in England people will identify as Christian because historically we have been a Christian country.

In a recent poll people were asked what religion would class yourself as.

Out of those who responded Christian they were then asked about their belief in Jesus.
46% (if memory serves me correctly) responded that they did not believe in Jesus or if they did they did not believe he rose from the dead.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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They are in the pulpit. They are in the pews. They sing "hallelujah". Jesus says "They worship me with their lips but their heart is far from me" para
OK, but you've said it...

They could sing all they want to and "worship" all they want to, but it is with thier LIPS and not with their HEART.

God looks at the heart... And HE knows who the tares are.

I also feel they are not to be removed because they might change and become wheat. All is possible with God...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Thats a good question.

Yes I think that can be the case. I think the reason why is because they don't know what being wheat is.
Here in England people will identify as Christian because historically we have been a Christian country.

In a recent poll people were asked what religion would class yourself as.

Out of those who responded Christian they were then asked about their belief in Jesus.
46% (if memory serves me correctly) responded that they did not believe in Jesus or if they did they did not believe he rose from the dead.
Ditto for Italy.
People here will say they're Catholic but they don't even believe Jesus existed or that there is life after death!
Not everyone, of course. Some are truly born again.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Luke 6:46New King James Version (NKJV)

Build on the Rock

[SUP]46 [/SUP]“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Hi Chris,

Those who called Jesus Lord, but did not obey were those who had bad soil. When reading Matthew 13 while studying the book of Matthew, I think this is one of the parables that really stood out to me in understanding about those who are saved and those who aren't.

We see:
~ Hard soil among the path. These heard the gospel, but they weren't open to the gospel. So the birds of the air came to eat the seed.

T
he evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.

~ Shallow soil among the rocks. The seed can't take root. These hear the gospel and the seed begins to grow, but it can't continue to live in shallow soil.

The man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

~ The thorny soil among a thicket of thorns. The seed that falls among the thorns also begins to grow. But the thorns take over all the nutrients and water so the young seedling is crowded out by the thorns.

The man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

~ The fruitful soil. The seed falls on good soil and grows and produces an abundant crop.

The man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

This all helps me to understand that many who say they are saved in the churches where we fellowship will have these types of soil. The different soils except the first will show signs of growth. But after a while they don't persevere in the truth of the gospel so it either becomes watered down or distorted somehow or nonexistent.

They may still continue on in church and go through the motions, but there will be no life found in them. They may put on a good show, they may talk and act like a believer, but they are the ones that are saying....... Lord, Lord did we not..........?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Thats a good question.

Yes I think that can be the case. I think the reason why is because they don't know what being wheat is.
Here in England people will identify as Christian because historically we have been a Christian country.

In a recent poll people were asked what religion would class yourself as.

Out of those who responded Christian they were then asked about their belief in Jesus.
46% (if memory serves me correctly) responded that they did not believe in Jesus or if they did they did not believe he rose from the dead.
Exactly. And you would also find not just 'nominal' Christians falling foul of this. You would also find regular church going attendees also falling foul of this. That's why Paul on so many numerous occasions in multiple letters warned the 'church' not to be deceived.

Now, can a Tare become Wheat?

Can someone who was sincerely themselves deceived, and in the process of deceiving others, have a revelation of Christ Jesus and repent and turn to Him in truth?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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OK, but you've said it...

They could sing all they want to and "worship" all they want to, but it is with thier LIPS and not with their HEART.

God looks at the heart... And HE knows who the tares are.

I also feel they are not to be removed because they might change and become wheat. All is possible with God...
Great!! We are making real progress together here. Soil (in the parable) is actually a symbol and type for the HEART of man.
Our messages crossed on the point of whether tares can become wheat.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
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Hi Chris,

Those who called Jesus Lord, but did not obey were those who had bad soil. When reading Matthew 13 while studying the book of Matthew, I think this is one of the parables that really stood out to me in understanding about those who are saved and those who aren't.

We see:
~ Hard soil among the path. These heard the gospel, but they weren't open to the gospel. So the birds of the air came to eat the seed.

T
he evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.

~ Shallow soil among the rocks. The seed can't take root. These hear the gospel and the seed begins to grow, but it can't continue to live in shallow soil.

The man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

~ The thorny soil among a thicket of thorns. The seed that falls among the thorns also begins to grow. But the thorns take over all the nutrients and water so the young seedling is crowded out by the thorns.

The man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

~ The fruitful soil. The seed falls on good soil and grows and produces an abundant crop.

The man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

This all helps me to understand that many who say they are saved in the churches where we fellowship will have these types of soil. The different soils except the first will show signs of growth. But after a while they don't persevere in the truth of the gospel so it either becomes watered down or distorted somehow or nonexistent.

They may still continue on in church and go through the motions, but there will be no life found in them. They may put on a good show, they may talk and act like a believer, but they are the ones that are saying....... Lord, Lord did we not..........?
^^^ Excellent..
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Now, talking of those who were on shallow soil, or thorny soil........were they saved? Herein lies the essence of our whole thread.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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How do the tares claim to believe in Jesus?
They are sown by the devil and are HIS children.
​Because they are liars and deceivers. Although they are total blackest darkness, they clothe themselves with an artificial light..........appearing as an angel of light.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Now, talking of those who were on shallow soil, or thorny soil........were they saved? Herein lies the essence of our whole thread.

No, they are not saved. They may think they are like those who say Lord, Lord.

But he says away from me, I never knew you. Their soil is bad - their heart. They begin well, but their heart has not changed.

They do not truly have a genuine faith that produces works of righteousness. They hear the truth and begin on with what they like about the truth, but their faith in God just isn't sincere.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Great!! We are making real progress together here. Soil (in the parable) is actually a symbol and type for the HEART of man.
Our messages crossed on the point of whether tares can become wheat.
The soil would be the field, correct?
In Mathew 13:38 Jesus explains that the field is the world. ( I think you're mixing this up with the parable of the Sower, Mathew 13:3.9 and Mathew 13:18-23. where the seed is the word of God and how it is received is the heart)

Someone asks if the tares should be pulled up out of the soil, Mathew 13:28.

I believe this parable explains HOW there could be tares in the field, or world.
The ENEMY plants the tares --- they listen to the enemy because they are his children.

But Jesus says to let the two grow together. He said so that the wheat may not be pulled up by mistake together with the tares. They look alike and a mistake might be made. It is up to GOD to judge, not to us.

Also, as we know, it is also possible for a child of satan to become born again and follow God.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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No, they are not saved. They may think they are like those who say Lord, Lord.

But he says away from me, I never knew you. Their soil is bad - their heart. They begin well, but their heart has not changed.

They do not truly have a genuine faith that produces works of righteousness. They hear the truth and begin on with what they like about the truth, but their faith in God just isn't sincere.
Good. Good progress on this thread now. Then we need to ask the question. When does a person 'get' saved? Because in both instances above they received the word of Christ, some even with Joy. Yet it didn't last. At what 'point' is a person saved?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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The soil would be the field, correct?
In Mathew 13:38 Jesus explains that the field is the world. ( I think you're mixing this up with the parable of the Sower, Mathew 13:3.9 and Mathew 13:18-23.)
Correct, I am talking about the parable of the sower. The seed that fell on the different types of ground.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Good. Good progress on this thread now. Then we need to ask the question. When does a person 'get' saved? Because in both instances above they received the word of Christ, some even with Joy. Yet it didn't last. At what 'point' is a person saved?
A person is saved when he receives the word of God with joy.
Mathew 13:20-21 would be the first person that is saved. He receives the word with JOY.

But then affliction or persecution arises he FALLS AWAY and the joy is TEMPORARY.
Now we get into loss of salvation.

Mathew 13:22 is a person who has heard the word and understands it but the cares of the world take precedence, and the lust for money or other material things, and so his heart becomes unfruitful for the Kingdom of God. It would seem that Jesus believes that the word becomes choked so that it is not alive in that person.

It seems to me that Mathew 13:23 is the person that is saved FOREVER.
The soil was good and receptive (the heart)
He hears the word and understands it
He bears fruit
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Exactly. And you would also find not just 'nominal' Christians falling foul of this. You would also find regular church going attendees also falling foul of this. That's why Paul on so many numerous occasions in multiple letters warned the 'church' not to be deceived.

Now, can a Tare become Wheat?

Can someone who was sincerely themselves deceived, and in the process of deceiving others, have a revelation of Christ Jesus and repent and turn to Him in truth?
Yes I think they can.

I think part of the problem is what is taught in church.

I remember going to a C of E church.
Jesus was taught as being meek and mild, gentle.

Not once can I remember hearing how one becomes a Christian, what it means to a Christian (Christ follower).

When I went to a church that preached Christ crucified and what it means to be a Christian it was a real eye opener for me.

Now before that I would say I was a Christian. I believed Jesus was the son of God who died and rose again for my sin.

I believed that even before I went to church (my heritage was Muslim) and I believed that from watching Jesus of Nazareth.

However up until I changed churches no one ever ever taught me, told me what following was all about.

Not all tares we see in church are there to disrupt and deceive, maybe they don't have a full understanding of what it means to follow Jesus. Such can become wheat and I try not to limit God who are out to disrupt and deceive.

I have a couple of friends who were ardent athiests and are Christ filled followers of him and not ashamed of it.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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A person is saved when he receives the word of God with joy.
Mathew 13:20-21 would be the first person that is saved. He receives the word with JOY.

But then affliction or persecution arises he FALLS AWAY and the joy is TEMPORARY.
Now we get into loss of salvation.

Mathew 13:22 is a person who has heard the word and understands it but the cares of the world take precedence, and the lust for money or other material things, and so his heart becomes unfruitful for the Kingdom of God. It would seem that Jesus believes that the word becomes choked so that it is not alive in that person.

It seems to me that Mathew 13:23 is the person that is saved FOREVER.
The soil was good and receptive (the heart)
He hears the word and understands it
He bears fruit
Good.

Matthew 24v12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

What are your thoughts on the above scripture?

Is it possible for those who once 'loved', for that love to grow cold? Were they are any point saved before this?
Why does the bible talk about "saved" or "salvation" in terms of enduring till the end. Or put another way, to those who overcome (as can be seen multiple times in the bible).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,912
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A person is saved when he receives the word of God with joy.
Mathew 13:20-21 would be the first person that is saved. He receives the word with JOY.

But then affliction or persecution arises he FALLS AWAY and the joy is TEMPORARY.
Now we get into loss of salvation.

Mathew 13:22 is a person who has heard the word and understands it but the cares of the world take precedence, and the lust for money or other material things, and so his heart becomes unfruitful for the Kingdom of God. It would seem that Jesus believes that the word becomes choked so that it is not alive in that person.

It seems to me that Mathew 13:23 is the person that is saved FOREVER.
The soil was good and receptive (the heart)
He hears the word and understands it
He bears fruit
Whilst i I agree with what you are saying if we see someone who does not seem to be bearing fruit we need to come alongside and try to find out why. Trouble is we can only surmise what is going on behind the scenes in persons mind.

They may be carrying so much baggage and really heavy laden that it is very difficult for them to grow in Christ.
Their relationship with God can be blocked because of false concept of a loving father.

There may be others who don't give 2 hoots about how they live their life, even after being counselled about what it means to be in Jesus, to me that is tares.

I can't limit God from turning tares into wheat.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Where in Scripture does it say the "tares" professed belief in Jesus? :confused:
 
Mar 23, 2016
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BillG said:
Wheat and tares in appearance are almost indistinguishable.

I think Jesus is saying that we can't tell in truth what is wheat and what is tares. That's why we need to leave it up to the one who knows.
Yep. And not be shocked if/when we are hated by some.