Are we justified by works?

[FranC]

I actually offered for jay to correct himself if he mis-typed or maybe I mis-interperted. he did not do so.

I like others are getting really sick of all the " be a good person so that God will love you and allow you to go to heaven " garbage. we are saved BY GRACE ALONE. anyone saying or implying anything else is a liar.

and yes, true believers ( not true workers ) will DO GOOD WORKS and be good people.

See if you agree with this gb9:

We all agree that we should do good works.
An atheist could do all the good works he wants to do and it won't do him any good.
Bill Gates could give away billions but if he doesn't have God's spirit in him when he dies he will not go with God.

For those who believe and have the spirit of God in them when they die, it won't matter if they believe works grace or grace works or any other combination. What matters is that they trust in Jesus for their salvation and follow the moral Law to the best of their ability.

I'm sure you agree that Jesus Himself said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.
What are His commandments? Do they cover all the moral law?

In fact, He never said to just believe in Him and we'd be OK. He did say that we are to follow His commandments. This is a good thing. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We should be better than everyone else. In our demeanor, I mean.

Do you agree? We could be more generous with each other.

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

See if you agree with this gb9:

We all agree that we should do good works.
An atheist could do all the good works he wants to do and it won't do him any good.
Bill Gates could give away billions but if he doesn't have God's spirit in him when he dies he will not go with God.

For those who believe and have the spirit of God in them when they die, it won't matter if they believe works grace or grace works or any other combination. What matters is that they trust in Jesus for their salvation and follow the moral Law to the best of their ability.

I'm sure you agree that Jesus Himself said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.
What are His commandments? Do they cover all the moral law?

In fact, He never said to just believe in Him and we'd be OK. He did say that we are to follow His commandments. This is a good thing. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We should be better than everyone else. In our demeanor, I mean.

Do you agree? We could be more generous with each other.

i would love to agree

but the path is narrow

and im like a babe

i still need the gift of assurance

and if i keep follow his Word i know i know him

sometimes i feel like a branch thats grafted on that isnt bearing fruit that will get tossed in the fire


Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


now i see sin getting removed from my life

and when i do good its actually him doing it


but

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

or


A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

so its him that brings the good fruit

and i can ONLY produce bad fruit

which is why i sin still?
maybe not being 100% dead to myself?

 

[88]

i would love to agree

but the path is narrow

and im like a babe

i still need the gift of assurance

and if i keep follow his Word i know i know him

sometimes i feel like a branch thats grafted on that isnt bearing fruit that will get tossed in the fire


Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


now i see sin getting removed from my life

and when i do good its actually him doing it


but

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

or


A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

so its him that brings the good fruit

and i can ONLY produce bad fruit

which is why i sin still?
maybe not being 100% dead to myself?

*** seek more of God's Spirit*** it will help your weaknesses..

 

[dcontroversal]

Not before God.............Romans, Galatians....

Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the WORKS/DEEDS of the LAW........

 

[MattforJesus]

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Pertaining to the fleshy ways,people trying to find favor with God by their fleshy works,and being in the flesh nobody can live up to the deeds of the law perfectly,so we can only have faith when we initially confess Christ.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Pertaining to the spiritual ways,led by the Spirit.

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

Not before God.............Romans, Galatians....

Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the WORKS/DEEDS of the LAW........

do you feel salvation can be lost?

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Pertaining to the fleshy ways,people trying to find favor with God by their fleshy works,and being in the flesh nobody can live up to the deeds of the law perfectly,so we can only have faith when we initially confess Christ.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Pertaining to the spiritual ways,led by the Spirit.

More cake taking....JAMES out of context again to prove a false point...SHOW ME YOUR FAITH....JAMES speaks before men not GOD....good luck in that day<--Plenteous in number will come before the Lord boasting just as you do...not a good day for the workers for!

 

[dcontroversal]

do you feel salvation can be lost?

Not according to verb tense, context and the promises of JESUS....

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

Not according to verb tense, context and the promises of JESUS....

i feel like theres no way any false spirit could have changed me the way i have been.... it had to be of God

does everyone he works in make it?

what of the verse about the 10 virgins and oil

 

[dcontroversal]

i feel like theres no way any false spirit could have changed me the way i have been.... it had to be of God

does everyone he works in make it?

what of the verse about the 10 virgins and oil

EVERYONE that genuinely trusts into Christ will make it...end of story and there are sure signs....

a. the ability to begin to grasp the word
b. conviction when you sin
c. peace and rest when your right
d. chastisement as a son

I will never leave thee nor forsake thee
Nothing can separate us from the love of God
I will raise it up in the last day
Jesus will finish what he started
Sealed by the Holy Spirit of PROMISE
In the Father's hand
In the Son's HAND
Whatsoever God does it is everlasting
He that believes on the SON is having everlasting LIFE
He that believes on the Son is not condemned

ETC.....

 

[FranC]

i would love to agree

but the path is narrow

and im like a babe

i still need the gift of assurance

and if i keep follow his Word i know i know him

sometimes i feel like a branch thats grafted on that isnt bearing fruit that will get tossed in the fire


Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


now i see sin getting removed from my life

and when i do good its actually him doing it


but

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

or


A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

so its him that brings the good fruit

and i can ONLY produce bad fruit

which is why i sin still?
maybe not being 100% dead to myself?

Hi JM
Here's what I can tell you.
The very fact that you can speak like this shows that you have love for God and concern for pleasing Him.
We are God's creatures. He made us all and those of us that believe He has given the right to be called sons.
If we are a son of God we will not be cast out.

While we are alive, we will never be 100% dead to ourselves. This is not possible. The world is too real and we're too fragile. That is also why we sin. Only Jesus never sinned. Every one else will. You can read about this in 1 John 1, I'm sorry I don't have a Bible here.


You are a good tree if you believe in Jesus. He is the trunk, and we are the branches.
We can only do our best. God knows our heart and He will not cut off His children.
Be blessed.

 

[garee]

My take is, if you claim to be IN CHRIST yet you're life is not changing at all, then its dead faith that cant save just like James says.

So it aint like you gotta do some religious ceremonies to "maintain" your salvation or to get saved.
But its also not that you simply believe that Jesus exists and bam your in, because the book of Acts and the epistles and JESUS HIMSELF is very clear on REPENTANCE.
We can see the state of many churches when repentance is not preached, its complete devastation.

All the apostles had a changed life as proof of their faith.

If you want to see the definition of what true faith is read Hebrews 11 it lists multiple examples.

A person cannot have faith IN (towards) Christ unless they are first freely given the faith OF Christ.(coming from).

It becomes “whose faith" that of God as the things of God, or of men as the things of men? There must be a clear distinction. It is at that intersection that the antichrists get their foot in the door attemping to bleahpheme (attribute the work of one to another Blashpheming the Holy name..

Abraham and Rehab were saved by the work of Christ’s faith, the faith of God.Not of thier own selves

Christ worked in them.We can see ho Christ’s worked to will with His works and by his work that works in the individual The faith of God is made perfect complete. Without His faith no man could.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his works, and by works was (Christ's) faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. am 2:21

We are saved by a imputed work OF faith, OF Christ and not OF our own selves.

Without His faith working in us no man could believe God who has no form in order to please him.No way to seek after Him and therefore understand

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Its not faith vs works. What God joins together let no man call separate

 

[gb9]

See if you agree with this gb9:

We all agree that we should do good works.
An atheist could do all the good works he wants to do and it won't do him any good.
Bill Gates could give away billions but if he doesn't have God's spirit in him when he dies he will not go with God.

For those who believe and have the spirit of God in them when they die, it won't matter if they believe works grace or grace works or any other combination. What matters is that they trust in Jesus for their salvation and follow the moral Law to the best of their ability.

I'm sure you agree that Jesus Himself said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.
What are His commandments? Do they cover all the moral law?

In fact, He never said to just believe in Him and we'd be OK. He did say that we are to follow His commandments. This is a good thing. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We should be better than everyone else. In our demeanor, I mean.

Do you agree? We could be more generous with each other.

John chapter 3- Jesus said a lot about belief. and I am not going to play these games of trying to set Paul against Jesus. they do not contradict. if you believe that Paul was Christ's hand-picked guy to carry the Gospel ( not the Torah ) to the gentiles, who did not have the Torah, then you will not play these games.

and yes, we could be more generous with each other.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

which is why I sin still?

maybe not being 100% dead to myself?

Yep ... and we're all in the same boat so don't feel like you're all alone.


James 1:13-15 tells us why we sin.


vs 14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin


we get drawn away through our lusts.


we need to get to the point where we start recognizing those triggers (lusts) which draw us away.


we also need to get to the point where we decide that leaving that wonderful fellowship with the Father and with our Lord Jesus Christ is just not worth whatever it is that is being dangled in front of us at the moment.

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

If a person believes that Jesus is Lord,and Christ,the Son of the living God,God is surely working in their life.

We are odds with each although we believe this about Jesus,but if we believe this,God is surely working in our life,all the while someone else may say you are not right,or deceived.

But if the people that believe OSAS says the people that say faith without works is dead,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,and we have to abstain from sin by the Holy Spirit,says that they shall not inherit eternal life,and even some write Matthew 7 where Jesus said,I never knew you because they say works was the answer to salvation,if they believe Jesus is Lord,and Christ,the Son of the living God,then God must be working in their life,but if they are not part of the chosen,then how did they come to believe those things which can only be revealed by God.

Why would God be working in their life if they are not part of the chosen,and that is because we have a choice,not God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,for He said He wants all people to be saved,and is not willing that any perish.

And when the people pointed out their works in Matthew 7,it was not their works why they could not dwell with Jesus,for they were good works,it was they were workers of iniquity,they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof.

If the people that believe OSAS believe they are the chosen,then how do people that do not believe like they do,confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and that He is the Christ,and the Son of the living God,who came in flesh,which they can only do that if it were revealed by God,so God has to be working in their lives,and if they were not chosen why would God be working in their lives.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

That is because God does the calling and choosing on earth,for we have a choice,which the Bible says whosoever will can have salvation,so why do they say God chose some not to be saved in the beginning.

God is not evil,He is good.

 

[Katy-follower]

Ephesians 2:8-10: "(v10)....For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

 

[willybob]

Cornelius was justified by his good works, so much so that he came up as a memorial before God, thus he gladly received the gospel when it was delivered to him by Peter....was Cornelius a rare case? I would suppose so, like wise was Lydia...Man is justified by his obedience from the heart to the knowledge he possesses...Cornelius was obedient to what he knew, thus God Himself said he was a devout/just man...The apostate church works 24/7 seeking to strip man of any ability to obey God. In fact many say that's the worst sin of all...strange indeed...Cain could be saved by doing good works, God even said so....Can man save himself alone? no, only God can forgive past sins...so its all about man working together with God........the faithful and obedient are called "the worthy" in the NT...Can man be saved by religious works, alter calls and various methods? no..

anyway when the scriptures speak of being "workers together with Him", and ""work out your own salvation", "save yourself from this untoward generation", is all Chinese to those who are still in rebellion....

 

[willybob]

does this mean that Cornelius didn't need Jesus...Of course not? Jesus has done the heavy lifting, all man has to do is choose to get in on the good news by coming clean with God in repentance and following in the ways of Jesus...In Cornelius case he was not in rebellion against God. So Peter did not come to him with a message of repentance...

 

[mailmandan]

does this mean that Cornelius didn't need Jesus...Of course not? Jesus has done the heavy lifting, all man has to do is choose to get in on the good news by coming clean with God in repentance and following in the ways of Jesus...In Cornelius case he was not in rebellion against God. So Peter did not come to him with a message of repentance...

Peter came to him with a message of how he and his household will be saved (Acts 11:14). Does believing in Him to receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43) exclude repentance? (Acts 11:17,18).

 

[Chris1975]

Definition of what is meant by the "World"

Do Not Love the World

1 John 2
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.



1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[SUP][a][/SUP] faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


Now substitute the definition of the world into 1 John 5 so that those who believe that overcoming sin is not necessary but rather just a 'recommendation'.



1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is born of God overcomes the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. And this is the victory that has overcome the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—our[SUP][a][/SUP] faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who is he who overcomes the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


It CANNOT be made any simpler.