Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...
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When Jesus spoke these words, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
People are warning about false teachings that steer them from having faith in what Christ has done for them in this life. The warnings are to watch out for those that try to get us to rely on our own self-works and save ourselves.
They are warning so that others don't try to get them to save themselves by what they do or don't do and not trust in Christ's finished work for them. They warn them because there are those that try to bring fear to the body of Christ - to doubt Christ's work on the cross.
John 15 is about fruit bearing - not for eternal salvation. He bears the fruit. Without Him we can do nothing - especially save ourselves.
Let's post the scriptures so that we can all study this together:
Ephesians 1v13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
You see the above? Having believed, we have the guarantee.
Now let me ask you - should this condition not be met (as we can see in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, 2 Peter 2v20,21 etc etc) and this believer falls into unbelief? Should this believer be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming?
Let's use an analogy. Let's say you buy a washing machine withe a lifetime guarantee by the manufacturer. Should anything break-down the manufacturer will fix the washine machine, free of charge. However there are conditions attached to the guarantee. It says that the owner of the washine machine should not try open up the backboard and try fix and replace components or touch the electricals, etc. Should the owner do this, the guarantee becomes void. This is part of the sale contract.
In a similar vein, the guarantee of the inheritance comes with the condition of Belief. You would not argue with the statement if I said, "Unless you believe, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit and you cannot inherit eternal life". That's a truthful statement.
Now, what about a believer falling away (as we can see from multiple scriptures), and then falls into unbelief? Like the washine machine which was tampered with, the guarantee is void. Because the condition of the contract was belief (Ephesians 1v13)
We can see this guarantee restated AGAIN in Colossians 1v21-23
Colossians 1
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
You see. The guarantee is in place. However unbelief makes it of no effect.
Try looking at Colossians 1v23 above and ask yourself - what happens if a believer DOESN'T continue in the faith. Someone who IS MOVED from the hope of the gospel. Will verse 21 still hold?
Ephesians 1v13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
You see the above? Having believed, we have the guarantee.
Now let me ask you - should this condition not be met (as we can see in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, 2 Peter 2v20,21 etc etc) and this believer falls into unbelief? Should this believer be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming?
Let's use an analogy. Let's say you buy a washing machine withe a lifetime guarantee by the manufacturer. Should anything break-down the manufacturer will fix the washine machine, free of charge. However there are conditions attached to the guarantee. It says that the owner of the washine machine should not try open up the backboard and try fix and replace components or touch the electricals, etc. Should the owner do this, the guarantee becomes void. This is part of the sale contract.
In a similar vein, the guarantee of the inheritance comes with the condition of Belief. You would not argue with the statement if I said, "Unless you believe, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit and you cannot inherit eternal life". That's a truthful statement.
Now, what about a believer falling away (as we can see from multiple scriptures), and then falls into unbelief? Like the washine machine which was tampered with, the guarantee is void. Because the condition of the contract was belief (Ephesians 1v13)
We can see this guarantee restated AGAIN in Colossians 1v21-23
Colossians 1
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
You see. The guarantee is in place. However unbelief makes it of no effect.
Try looking at Colossians 1v23 above and ask yourself - what happens if a believer DOESN'T continue in the faith. Someone who IS MOVED from the hope of the gospel. Will verse 21 still hold?
John 15 is all about bearing fruit. We don't produce or manufacture fruit as a branch - we bear His fruit.
The other aspect to this Vine and branch thing is that all the world was included in Christ's death on the cross. We can see this with the 2 thieves who were crucified "with" Him. One believed and the didn't.
Salvation is available to all people as they are included in Christ's work on the cross now but they must "receive" the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness to stay in the Vine. This is how they abide/remain/stay in Christ. These are the ones that bear the fruit of His life manifesting in them.
Col. 1:20 says that God reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.
The other aspect to this Vine and branch thing is that all the world was included in Christ's death on the cross. We can see this with the 2 thieves who were crucified "with" Him. One believed and the didn't.
Salvation is available to all people as they are included in Christ's work on the cross now but they must "receive" the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness to stay in the Vine. This is how they abide/remain/stay in Christ. These are the ones that bear the fruit of His life manifesting in them.
Col. 1:20 says that God reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.
Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....as shown by Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson.
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....as shown by Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson.
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
You can twist all you like. IF is IF. Its a condition. Plain to every reader not looking at this through a faulty theology. If it was totally established, then verse 23 is moot. The Word could have stopped at verse 22.
Lets take the following example: You will become extremely fit, IF you train daily.
This is plain language. For all to see. We know that to become extremely fit, an input is needed. Daily training.
What you are trying to establish is the following: You will become extremely fit. Everybody, without exception.
The error is obvious.
Lets take the following example: You will become extremely fit, IF you train daily.
This is plain language. For all to see. We know that to become extremely fit, an input is needed. Daily training.
What you are trying to establish is the following: You will become extremely fit. Everybody, without exception.
The error is obvious.
That's your "lose your salvation" own personal thoughts that is saying that. You are reading into it "eternal salvation" by your church teachings and bias.
John 15:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
There are many ways to view what happens to a Christian that doesn't walk by the spirit and they die early in life.
There are also other ways to view this verse including the fact that all people have been included in Christ's work on the cross. Those that receive Christ "remain/stay/abide" in Christ. Works-based salvation is not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ no matter how much we try to pervert it to try to keep ourselves saved.
This is exactly the type of teaching that the apostles are warning us about - trying to get us to abandon Christ's work and exchange it with our own - to save ourselves by what we do. My goodness - why do we have so many unbelieving believers?
I encourage you to trust in Christ's work on the cross. He has done it - we can believe Him. He is not a liar when He said the Holy Spirit with be in you forever. John 14:16 . He will be faithful to us.
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This is getting useless. Others have left enough evidence for people viewing the thread to show that we are safe in Christ because of what He has done for us by His work on the cross. This could go on for days because there will always be influences casting doubt to Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
I encourage people to read scripture through the lens of Christ's finished work. He is the Savior we don't save ourselves.
A drowning man needs a Savior - he doesn't need to know the 5 steps to how to swim and if you don't "do" these 5 steps before you make it to shore - you will drown. That's not a savior - that's someone to show you how to save yourself. That is not the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
We need a Savior and Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world - especially of believers.
We can trust Him and everyone is included but we still need to believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness to remain in what Christ has done in His love and grace for all of us.
Become a believer and you will abide in Christ and He will bear His fruit in you for His glory.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
I encourage people to read scripture through the lens of Christ's finished work. He is the Savior we don't save ourselves.
A drowning man needs a Savior - he doesn't need to know the 5 steps to how to swim and if you don't "do" these 5 steps before you make it to shore - you will drown. That's not a savior - that's someone to show you how to save yourself. That is not the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
We need a Savior and Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world - especially of believers.
We can trust Him and everyone is included but we still need to believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness to remain in what Christ has done in His love and grace for all of us.
Become a believer and you will abide in Christ and He will bear His fruit in you for His glory.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).
Now we read in Colossians 1:23 - ifindeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed.
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
Now we read in Colossians 1:23 - ifindeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed.
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
He makes the same mistake everyone that does not understand that God's saints persevere to receive the inheritance of His will, by not understanding the means of salvation. A prayer or what is called a sinners prayer does not save anyone, not even if it's done from the heart in true belief. It's a cry of repentance that is promoted by the Holy Spirit convicting a sinner heart, because that heart has been circumised Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."
They believe the lie that a person is saved by saying a prayer, because they take the verse "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." They take this literal, in the sense that by saying the name of Jesus is calling on the name of the Lord for salvation. Here's the problem, it does not mean that in a literal sense, if it did how would mute people be saved? or "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."if this is literal, how would deaf people come to be saved." How would deaf people be saved? So what does it mean, with what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29 the Spirit circumcises the heart so that the word of God can bring a person to saving faith in repentance, I know now you're saying if what you are saying is true, what about blind people? They have brail, smarty.
Once the sinner comes to the knowledge of the truth, that they are a sinner under the judgement and wrath of God and are in fear of suffering that judgement. The love of God is seen by His grace and they believe in repentant faith in God's Son's sacrifice for their sins and receive it, gladly no one needs to lead them in anything they're penitent heart leads them to Jesus and they are sealed with the promised Spirit as a guarantee that they will receive the inheritance of their faith, the blessed hope out glorified bodies, Ephesians 1:13. But he can't see that because he has those glasses he was talking about, "reading what they believe, instead of believing what they read" he is guilty of that unless he's never read Ephesians 1:13 and does not understand the word "eternal" as in forever and ever and ever, He gives us eternal life.
He knows how to twist the Scriptures, doesn't he. Jesus said He will never leave you nor forsake you, BUT He never said you could not leave Him, really? Jesus did not say through the Holy Spirit "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Are we not created? other then death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things past, things to come, height, depth or us, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, nor He is not created, but He said, He will never leave us nor forsake us, so we are covered to never be separated from the love of God that is in Christ our Savior. I say believe what you read on Romans 8:31-39, my favorite is verse 32, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?"
Thing about it, God killed His own Son for us to be saved, do you really think He would not give us what we need to have life eternal (everlasting, not as long as _______), do you really think He would leave it in our hands? No! Read Genesis 15, He waited until Abraham fell into a deep sleep, then He came and walked through the middle of the sacrifice, because He knew Abraham would mess it up, if it depended on him, so God made it all on Him, not Abraham. The same with us, it's all on Jesus, not on us, because we would mess it up, every time, all the time and God knows that. This is why Kate-follower is right on with her interpretation of these verses.
I remember sharing this same view with a friend and he looked at me like I was crazy, he said you're reading it like that because you now believe in OSAS. I said no it's not because of that, it's because my eyes have been opened to read it for what it is, not what we were told it says. Beside it's NOT OSAS, it's once justified you are always justified before God, because "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:" What did David declare Psalms 32:1-2 "Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit"
The righteousness of God, is believing in the God that justifies the ungodly and the Lord does not count his sins/iniquities against him, isn't that amazing? Once found not guilty in the righteous court of the Lord, you can never be retried for your crime of sins, trespasses and iniquities, because it would be double which is illegal in an earthly court, that has corrupt judges in it. Men try to corrupt it's judgements, by saying that earthly judges are more righteous than the Eternal Judge of Justice in Righteousness. They say He will rule on cases of double jeopardy, because He does account the sins of those, He found not guilty in His Righteous court in the heavens As the OP says there is no sacrifices for those once enlightened having tasted of the heavenly gift
They believe the lie that a person is saved by saying a prayer, because they take the verse "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." They take this literal, in the sense that by saying the name of Jesus is calling on the name of the Lord for salvation. Here's the problem, it does not mean that in a literal sense, if it did how would mute people be saved? or "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."if this is literal, how would deaf people come to be saved." How would deaf people be saved? So what does it mean, with what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29 the Spirit circumcises the heart so that the word of God can bring a person to saving faith in repentance, I know now you're saying if what you are saying is true, what about blind people? They have brail, smarty.
Once the sinner comes to the knowledge of the truth, that they are a sinner under the judgement and wrath of God and are in fear of suffering that judgement. The love of God is seen by His grace and they believe in repentant faith in God's Son's sacrifice for their sins and receive it, gladly no one needs to lead them in anything they're penitent heart leads them to Jesus and they are sealed with the promised Spirit as a guarantee that they will receive the inheritance of their faith, the blessed hope out glorified bodies, Ephesians 1:13. But he can't see that because he has those glasses he was talking about, "reading what they believe, instead of believing what they read" he is guilty of that unless he's never read Ephesians 1:13 and does not understand the word "eternal" as in forever and ever and ever, He gives us eternal life.
He knows how to twist the Scriptures, doesn't he. Jesus said He will never leave you nor forsake you, BUT He never said you could not leave Him, really? Jesus did not say through the Holy Spirit "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Are we not created? other then death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things past, things to come, height, depth or us, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, nor He is not created, but He said, He will never leave us nor forsake us, so we are covered to never be separated from the love of God that is in Christ our Savior. I say believe what you read on Romans 8:31-39, my favorite is verse 32, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?"
Thing about it, God killed His own Son for us to be saved, do you really think He would not give us what we need to have life eternal (everlasting, not as long as _______), do you really think He would leave it in our hands? No! Read Genesis 15, He waited until Abraham fell into a deep sleep, then He came and walked through the middle of the sacrifice, because He knew Abraham would mess it up, if it depended on him, so God made it all on Him, not Abraham. The same with us, it's all on Jesus, not on us, because we would mess it up, every time, all the time and God knows that. This is why Kate-follower is right on with her interpretation of these verses.
I remember sharing this same view with a friend and he looked at me like I was crazy, he said you're reading it like that because you now believe in OSAS. I said no it's not because of that, it's because my eyes have been opened to read it for what it is, not what we were told it says. Beside it's NOT OSAS, it's once justified you are always justified before God, because "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:" What did David declare Psalms 32:1-2 "Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit"
The righteousness of God, is believing in the God that justifies the ungodly and the Lord does not count his sins/iniquities against him, isn't that amazing? Once found not guilty in the righteous court of the Lord, you can never be retried for your crime of sins, trespasses and iniquities, because it would be double which is illegal in an earthly court, that has corrupt judges in it. Men try to corrupt it's judgements, by saying that earthly judges are more righteous than the Eternal Judge of Justice in Righteousness. They say He will rule on cases of double jeopardy, because He does account the sins of those, He found not guilty in His Righteous court in the heavens As the OP says there is no sacrifices for those once enlightened having tasted of the heavenly gift
I know....of course the bible out of context and while ignoring verb tense can be twisted to teach this folly.......Once one actually trusts Christ....my bible teaches me that NOTHING can separate me from the love of Christ and that JESUS will finish what he started.....
If what they push is true....they themselves are lost, everyone is lost and no one will be in heaven...one sin is all it takes...!
If what they push is true....they themselves are lost, everyone is lost and no one will be in heaven...one sin is all it takes...!
I agree...but I also think it's important to view these people are genuinely wanting what is good for Christians.
It's just that this Pentecostal lose your salvation doctrine has been drilled into the minds with the same scriptures over and over again until it has become a stronghold in the mind.
A religious stronghold in the mind is a very tuff thing to go against. It has the "appearance" of good but actually denies the power and grace of God from operating like it is meant to in our lives. Thus a works-based - save yourself doctrine takes over and they create rules to live by in order to keep themselves saved.
The problem they have is - when they see a warning scripture - their default from the religious indoctrination sees nothing but " going to hell and losing your union with Christ." They equate destruction in this life scriptures by walking by the flesh instead of by the spirit - to spending eternity in hell.
Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the things of Christ to all of us.
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