Not By Works
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The bible is plain to read and understand. No need to complicate it.
You see what has crept into the church is a mistaken identity crisis. We are calling the good things bad, and the bad things good.
We are calling Sin good - <by implication saying that its no longer a factor>
We are calling the Law bad - you just need to scroll through these forums to get a wealth of evidence on this.
Lets see what Romans 7 says (together):
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. <this is where the case of mistaken identity arises> [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
There are two players in the above stage play. Sin and the Law. Can you discern which is the Good Guy and which is the Bad guy?
So I once again post Romans 3v31....
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
You see what has crept into the church is a mistaken identity crisis. We are calling the good things bad, and the bad things good.
We are calling Sin good - <by implication saying that its no longer a factor>
We are calling the Law bad - you just need to scroll through these forums to get a wealth of evidence on this.
Lets see what Romans 7 says (together):
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. <this is where the case of mistaken identity arises> [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
There are two players in the above stage play. Sin and the Law. Can you discern which is the Good Guy and which is the Bad guy?
So I once again post Romans 3v31....
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
p4t - he believes in future sin forgiven, so does eg, dc, g7, fnc, gb9.
I even asked this question on another thread and have discussed this
in the past with this group in one form or another. So it is not a straw
man.
Now they will say they agree with God about sin, and that is it.
They relabel this as repenting, confessing and accepting forgiveness.
So my take on this is they are lying and being inconsistent about their belief
system to avoid problems. Now you can seriously stretch this far, because you
and I know we do actually build theological models and test them for consistency.
So I know you know what I am saying. Why do I need to repeat these same points,
it is not like we are hiding anything from each other. lol
I even asked this question on another thread and have discussed this
in the past with this group in one form or another. So it is not a straw
man.
Now they will say they agree with God about sin, and that is it.
They relabel this as repenting, confessing and accepting forgiveness.
So my take on this is they are lying and being inconsistent about their belief
system to avoid problems. Now you can seriously stretch this far, because you
and I know we do actually build theological models and test them for consistency.
So I know you know what I am saying. Why do I need to repeat these same points,
it is not like we are hiding anything from each other. lol
So we move on to the Law of the Spirit. Romans 8v2. It fixes the dilemma.
Romans 8v2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8v2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
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Ok ariel.
I drew a line, it is called the sermon on the mount.
I read Jesus's words. Put this into practice you are a wise man.
It seems you do not like this idea of actually using Gods word and
how it judges people and going with Gods word.
This is not me, or agreeing with me. Everyone chooses their own theology
and place. God is the judge. I am just a painter of pictures. Either accept or
reject what I share, that is the creation the Lord has made.
At examination time the pass or fail marks will be handed out.
Going on past performance mankind is pretty poor and finding the pass
mark.
God bless you.
I drew a line, it is called the sermon on the mount.
I read Jesus's words. Put this into practice you are a wise man.
It seems you do not like this idea of actually using Gods word and
how it judges people and going with Gods word.
This is not me, or agreeing with me. Everyone chooses their own theology
and place. God is the judge. I am just a painter of pictures. Either accept or
reject what I share, that is the creation the Lord has made.
At examination time the pass or fail marks will be handed out.
Going on past performance mankind is pretty poor and finding the pass
mark.
God bless you.
There is an easy way to handle this instead of the day in day out arguing with these types.
Frankly this reminds me of some sort of mental illness to have them go on like this perpetually. I mean doing this 24/7/365, hearing them speak of their righteousness, sinless claims, and of their love????? I mean, what would you do in real life is one of these came up to you spewing that nonsense? Right? You'd surely walk away!
There are better things to discuss than doing this for long periods of time. It cannot be good for ones own mental health. Typically I ignore PJ, willybob, and mj007 because they are about doing this all day looooonnnnnnggggggggg.
Have I told you about the excellent book I'm reading, Reformed Dogmatics by Heinrich Heppe? If you can get a copy, read it!
Other than that leave the troll heretics to themselves, it's just going to be another round of wasted time the rest of the evening, tomorrow and so forth.
Frankly this reminds me of some sort of mental illness to have them go on like this perpetually. I mean doing this 24/7/365, hearing them speak of their righteousness, sinless claims, and of their love????? I mean, what would you do in real life is one of these came up to you spewing that nonsense? Right? You'd surely walk away!
There are better things to discuss than doing this for long periods of time. It cannot be good for ones own mental health. Typically I ignore PJ, willybob, and mj007 because they are about doing this all day looooonnnnnnggggggggg.
Have I told you about the excellent book I'm reading, Reformed Dogmatics by Heinrich Heppe? If you can get a copy, read it!
Other than that leave the troll heretics to themselves, it's just going to be another round of wasted time the rest of the evening, tomorrow and so forth.
Ariel, I do not play your style, I am sorry.
I do respect your desire to reach out to others, but I suspect it
has compromised you. I have worked professionally with people who
use your traits and on average it works, and most people end up happy.
I follow what they call the analytical or task oriented approach.
Facts matter, you draw a picture, and then make your conclusions.
It is often brutal though fairly clear, and things lie where they lie.
Most here are too wrapped up in their own beliefs to approach real honesty,
but I would say, this has always been where Christ really is.
We are fools for Christ, and enthusiasm, saying how things come across,
being honest and open, it just what we are called to be.
Stephen died doing this the the sanhedrin.
Peter was freed from prison, but in the end also gave his life.
So it is a bloody self sacrificial approach, but hey, we are going to be with
Christ, so the soon the better, Halleluyah.
I do respect your desire to reach out to others, but I suspect it
has compromised you. I have worked professionally with people who
use your traits and on average it works, and most people end up happy.
I follow what they call the analytical or task oriented approach.
Facts matter, you draw a picture, and then make your conclusions.
It is often brutal though fairly clear, and things lie where they lie.
Most here are too wrapped up in their own beliefs to approach real honesty,
but I would say, this has always been where Christ really is.
We are fools for Christ, and enthusiasm, saying how things come across,
being honest and open, it just what we are called to be.
Stephen died doing this the the sanhedrin.
Peter was freed from prison, but in the end also gave his life.
So it is a bloody self sacrificial approach, but hey, we are going to be with
Christ, so the soon the better, Halleluyah.
L
There is no dilema, Paul is talking of the Law of sin and death having no more power over him. It was unable to do what Faith can. The law was unable to make him righteous by its own requirements. Only walking in the Spirit by faith can do that. The requirement of the Law to be righteous was fulfilled by what God did through Jesus, giving us back His Spirit that was lost in Adam.Now we walk in the Spirit, not by the law.
That's easy. Where sin abounds grace is more, of which is expounded upon in Romans 7. And since Jesus nailed the curse to the cross, we are enabled, through salvation to become obedient to Him by observing the law, springboarding off it by fleeing sin into the arms of the Holy Spirit. We are to put our trust in Him to help us in this matter because on our own, it is literally impossible to do this. That's where faith comes in. As such we are not justified by the law, but by faith. The law is good, as is described prominently Psalm 119, but Jesus is better. This does not mean it is done away with as He proclaims in Matthew 5:17-20, but rather everything the law says points to Him. Paul did not say these things to confuse us but to help us, as does the Holy Spirit. He did not say these things with a forked tongue, but rather we are reading him with a forked mind. "He speaks about these matters in all of his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist (as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures) --to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16. Ask yourself this, is the Holy Spirit really that poor of a communicator?
[SUP]Jesus says:
17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
- he came to fulfill, not to destroy.
- there is still more to fulfill - the redemption of His purchased prize, by His blood.
Romans 8v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
- he came to fulfill, not to destroy.
- there is still more to fulfill - the redemption of His purchased prize, by His blood.
Romans 8v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.