Come on, it's so obvious I'm better than you!

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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#1
#1
I've been reading a lot of threads about what a person must or must not do in order to qualify for a Christian marriage partner- and this is my beef with it.

There are some things in life we can't undo. To make a point-although it may be personal- I myself am not a virgin, have smoked, have done drugs, got a tattoo and a piercing, and done some other bad things I'd rather not remember. In theory, I'm pretty undesirable.

When people say things like "they must be a virgin" or "I can't date a person who has done ______" it's like saying "Those people are trash, they are not worthy of this"

They throw out the fact that Jesus Christ Himself has chosen to forgive those sins. Essentially, they choose to look at what are sometimes the most painful and vulnerable parts of an "undesirables" life and deny Jesus' message that we are worthy, loved, and charished no matter what we've done.

Get it through your head- we are NEW creatures in Christ!

By "undesirables" I'm not talking addicts- I'm talking about things we've done that cant be changed in a Christian's past. A forgiven Christian who loves Jesus and has moved on from that behavior.

I can't ever escape what I've done but I refuse to be labeled as an inferior product because of the sins of my past. I do know that I love God with all my heart and I'm open to date anyone who loves Jesus just as much as I do if I'm attracted to him.

I'm not saying dont have standards at all- I'm just saying give people a break when it comes to their pasts. You could be missing out on something you've been looking for all your life just because of your overwhelming pride.
 
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Jennifleur

Guest
#2
#2
Great post, Dread. I agree 100%.
 
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nanabean

Guest
#3
#3
AMEN Dread_Zepplin!!! Amen Indeed! Thank you for this post....I have struggled with this issue for quite some time in my own personal life. I love my friends and family for who they are underneath their pasts..and indeed even underneath their presents!!! When people do things that are not right, it doesn't automatically make them "bad" or even "not a christian" it just means they weren't or aren't on track, but with love from those around them, they just might GET on track -- sooner!!! I hate when, if you ask for prayer from others for someone who is having troubles with their life....sometimes you get this "look" ..glazed over eyes, a tilt to the head, or a look away....as if they are saying in their minds "trash!! whatever!" I asked for prayer for a reason..this person is NOT trash! they just need us and our prayers. Again.....thanks for bringing it to light, that if Jesus can forgive ....we can at least pray for each other and give each other a chance too.
 
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Mands

Guest
#4
#4
Bravo! :D I am 100% in agreement.
 
Johnoble

Johnoble

Member
#5
Apr 24, 2009
76
2
6
#5
Jesus came to heal the sick, to work and live amongst the most despised people of his time, in love. How sad that so many guys become so judgmental about another person's past, as if having a new spiritual birth wasn't possible. I've been a christian since I was 11 or 12, and haven't had the wild past that many Christians here seemed to have had, I've been pretty "pure" if you want to put it in those terms, but under no circumstance would I look down to a girl, much less dare call her "trash" because of her past. Simply because, understanding God's undeserving grace in my life, how could I ever be so judgmental towards another human? Great post Zeppelin!
 
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Vidy

Guest
#6
#6
Meh, I have some stipulations like that....

They must be a virgin, and I would rather not a tattoo, especially if it's big and noticeable.

As far as smoking and drugs, those are past things that have no REAL effect on you anymore. Piercings, just don't put rings in them and they close up.

It is NOT calling someone trash, or worthless. I'm not even trying to say, "No, you're not good enough for ME." Is it wrong for me to set standards that I've met myself? Now, if i wasn't a virgin and would only date/marry a virgin, or if I had 20 tattoos and wanted a girl without a single one, that would just be hypocritical of me.
 
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Matthew

Guest
#7
#7
Vidy said:
Meh, I have some stipulations like that....

They must be a virgin, and I would rather not a tattoo, especially if it's big and noticeable.

It is NOT calling someone trash, or worthless. I'm not even trying to say, "No, you're not good enough for ME." Is it wrong for me to set standards that I've met myself?
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I see it as being more about the impression and feelings you may leave behind, it seems to fall into the category of christians saying the right things like we're all made new and are forgiven etc.....whilst at the same time refusing to actually accept that fundamental truth because you are still holding out for a virgin.

You aren't calling a person trash or even thinking anything along those lines, but if you think about how your thoughts and actions leave others feeling then the impression can be that a double standard is at play, even if that is not actually the case, people can be made to feel as if God has forgiven them and made them new, and while you accept that fact you won't accept THEM as an individual because they no longer meet your requirements.

It could seem like you accept the word of God so long as the consequence of his forgiveness does not touch your own life, I mean that in the sense that he might bring a true love into your life only for you to discover she is no longer a virgin.

I really struggle to understand this whole issue around virginity, what exactly is it that you value about it so highly? maybe I am alone in this but I think the most important intimacy is emotional not physical, can you tell me what it is about that one moment in time that is so important you won't accept not having it?

Just to finish I'll say of course it's not wrong to want a mate who has met the same standard as you, but why must that be a requirement, is there something wrong with being with someone who has struggled a little more than you?
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#8
#8
Matthew said:
maybe I am alone in this but I think the most important intimacy is emotional not physical, can you tell me what it is about that one moment in time that is so important you won't accept not having it?
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Exactly- It is a VERY emotional moment. I mean, I haven't experienced it myself yet, but I can understand it. It's exciting- a sense of discovery, figuring each other out, sharing the same experience the first time TOGETHER. You only get it once in your life, honestly, and if you're both virgins I can see how that would make it SO much better =)

If it was truly about the physical, you wouldn't mind- You would want them to have as much experience as possible, and just make sure they don't have STDs or something.
 
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Matthew

Guest
#9
#9
Vidy said:
Exactly- It is a VERY emotional moment. I mean, I haven't experienced it myself yet, but I can understand it. It's exciting- a sense of discovery, figuring each other out, sharing the same experience the first time TOGETHER. You only get it once in your life, honestly, and if you're both virgins I can see how that would make it SO much better =)
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Well I can understand your reasoning but I don't agree, truth is every persons body is different and there is no less discovery of eachother involved for one not being a virgin, it is still every bit as unique an experience between the two of you, so the virginity element wouldn't really bring much to it for me personally.

Now not to sound like I am advocating for sex before marriage or anything silly but there could actually be positive elements involved as a result of one or both not being a virgin, for one thing there would be less nerves involved and so it might be more intimate and less akward and secondly the first time for a female can be a painful experience and if that element wasn't at play it could again be more intimate and pleasurable for her, I don't think it's a bad thing to want, but for myself I think it is probably a hugely over-rated experience.
 
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Vidy

Guest
#10
#10
Matthew said:
Well I can understand your reasoning but I don't agree, truth is every persons body is different and there is no less discovery of eachother involved for one not being a virgin, it is still every bit as unique an experience between the two of you, so the virginity element wouldn't really bring much to it for me personally.

Now not to sound like I am advocating for sex before marriage or anything silly but there could actually be positive elements involved as a result of one or both not being a virgin, for one thing there would be less nerves involved and so it might be more intimate and less akward and secondly the first time for a female can be a painful experience and if that element wasn't at play it could again be more intimate and pleasurable for her, I don't think it's a bad thing to want, but for myself I think it is probably a hugely over-rated experience.
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Once again, that's focusing on the physical side of it and ignoring the emotional side ~_o As far as discovery, yes, every person is different.... And yes, it may be kinda awkward at first. I just like the idea of learning everything WITH my partner, >I< want to give them their experiences, and I want them to give me mine.
 
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Matthew

Guest
#11
#11
Vidy said:
Once again, that's focusing on the physical side of it and ignoring the emotional side ~_o As far as discovery, yes, every person is different.... And yes, it may be kinda awkward at first. I just like the idea of learning everything WITH my partner, >I< want to give them their experiences, and I want them to give me mine.
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Well like I said I get your argument, but my statements weren't focusing on the physical side of it and ignoring the emotional.
By making those points about the physical side I was pointing out to you ways in which the emotional experience could potentially be enhanced, as in the emotional intimacy of any moment is compromised by physical pain, so without the physical pain the women could possibly deal with the emotional connection won't be disrupted, just a theory, but I really don't care to have a debate on the subject. ;)
 
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Vidy

Guest
#12
#12
Matthew said:
Well like I said I get your argument, but my statements weren't focusing on the physical side of it and ignoring the emotional.
By making those points about the physical side I was pointing out to you ways in which the emotional experience could potentially be enhanced, as in the emotional intimacy of any moment is compromised by physical pain, so without the physical pain the women could possibly deal with the emotional connection won't be disrupted, just a theory, but I really don't care to have a debate on the subject. ;)
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Tbh, I can actually see how the pain could enhance the emotional side of things, but that may just be a nerd fantasy crossing from reality to a corny fantasy lol.

But yeah, I won't debate you on it anymore ^_^
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#13
#13
Vidy said:
Exactly- It is a VERY emotional moment. I mean, I haven't experienced it myself yet, but I can understand it. It's exciting- a sense of discovery, figuring each other out, sharing the same experience the first time TOGETHER. You only get it once in your life, honestly, and if you're both virgins I can see how that would make it SO much better =)

If it was truly about the physical, you wouldn't mind- You would want them to have as much experience as possible, and just make sure they don't have STDs or something.
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I understand you're a young man and a virgin but please try to understand where I'm coming from.

When I had sex it wasn't out of love. There was no emotional attachment- in fact it made me dead inside, guilty, and ashamed. It happened out of manipulation and fear. By your logic since I've already had this "special moment" with someone else- that I've lost all the wonder and excitement of virginal sex with my future spouse forever.

I have to disagree. The experience will be brand new for obvious reasons- first of them being I'll actually be in love with this person. Sex between husband and wife for the first time is just as exciting as it will be for virgins I'm sure. Virgins don't corner the market for "most specialest relations ever". If anything I'll appreciate it more than you happy-go-lucky virgins because of the negative and insanely destructive feelings associated with my previous experience.

Everyone deserves new beginnings without judgment and full of understanding. You will never know what happened to me and my situation but you've written people like me off- people who deserve to be wanted just as much as a virgin. People who may not fit your standards and it might not even be their fault.

Its not about standards- it's about stigma.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#14
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#14
I only draw the line at single mothers and divorcees through fault of their own. For me they are red lights. People who have done drugs etc for me are amber lights. I was once involved with a girl who did do bad stuff but wasn't really a new creature in christ. She wasn't over her past yet, and then went back to it and worse. That's the important thing, that a person is truly a new creation in Christ and not merely putting on a show pretending.
 
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nanabean

Guest
#15
#15
Vidy said:
Meh, I have some stipulations like that....

They must be a virgin, and I would rather not a tattoo, especially if it's big and noticeable.

As far as smoking and drugs, those are past things that have no REAL effect on you anymore. Piercings, just don't put rings in them and they close up.

It is NOT calling someone trash, or worthless. I'm not even trying to say, "No, you're not good enough for ME." Is it wrong for me to set standards that I've met myself? Now, if i wasn't a virgin and would only date/marry a virgin, or if I had 20 tattoos and wanted a girl without a single one, that would just be hypocritical of me.
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*How to say what I want to say, and have it come across the way I want it to come across???*

Having standards is one thing, (and is even a very good thing,) having "your" "stipulations" is another thing comepletely. Standards say "this is how I lead my life, and I hold myself accountable for what I am doing." "Your" "Stipulations" say "If YOU don't "measure up" to what I expect...I won't "date you"/"marry you" "have anything to do with you" etc."

I say this this way with the "your" "stipulations" because of the way you talk about these "stipulations" you have. Because of the way you put the importance or non importance of each thing you mention, it makes me wonder about your reasonings. For example....you put alot of emphasis on your future wife being a virgin, but it seems to me that the REASON for her to be a virgin is ...off. You only focus on the fact that you want her first experience to be with you. (and vice versa..you DO get "points" for that! hahaha) You go on to say As far as smoking and drugs, those are past things that have no REAL effect on you anymore. and I beg to differ!! Along with not being a virgin, these things DO have a lasting effect on a person!! You have to consider, the smoke still in the lungs, the side effects that taking drugs can leave, and STD's etc too. If you had based your "stipulations" off these types of reasonings, I'd have a better feeling for your standards. Basing your "stipulations" off of wanting what you want for yourself, still gives the feeling that certain girls don't/won't "measure up".

Please don't think I am pounding you....I just think you need better reasons for your "stipulations" in order to have them "hold up" as standards.
Dread_Zepplin is right....we none of us can undo our pasts. And trust me we ALL have "pasts"!!! Jesus knows and accepts us "as is" (Thank you Jesus!!!) We should do the same for each other!

Also, as I (and Dread_Zepplin I do think) was trying to put in my original post, is that while all of these things we have mentioned as concerns in a relationship can be something to consider, they can and even indeed should be able to be gotten through. Our pasts help us eventually become who we are now, or in the future. We don't live in the past, we learn from it and go forward. I beleive that the most important aspect to a relationship is honesty/trust. Value that....and the past is forgiven.
 
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Vidy

Guest
#16
#16
No, my "stipulations" greatly affect how I live my life, too. My SO will be a VERY important part of my life, I'm sure. Yeah, it may be "selfish" of me to practically demand that one thing from her, especially if she can't get it back if she messed up before, but that's MY "loss" if I don't end up with her. She may be a wonderful person, and would probably make a great friend, but not being a virgin is a HUGE turn-off for me, and I don't think I could really handle that.


As far as your particular circumstance, dread, I'm sorry to hear that =( I mean, my "standard" isn't COMPLETELY without exceptions. If you were raped or something, or if you were in a past marriage that ended up him leaving you/dying, then I may still consider it. It's a purity issue for me, and being that intimate with someone who did that, when I didn't, makes me feel like I'm being "dirtied" too lol. I mean, I KNOW you're purified in Christ in all that, but I dunno...

It's just a personal issue I have. I have no real biblical basis for it or anything really. Guess it's a preference I have, similar to how I probably wouldn't date a black girl, or I wouldn't date somebody much taller than me. They could be GREAT people, but it's just something I couldn't emotionally handle a lifetime with I don't think =/
 
L

lightbliss

Guest
#17
#17
^^
I've never seen a black or white girl or person in general :confused:
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#18
#18
MahogonySnail said:
I only draw the line at single mothers and divorcees through fault of their own. For me they are red lights. People who have done drugs etc for me are amber lights. I was once involved with a girl who did do bad stuff but wasn't really a new creature in christ. She wasn't over her past yet, and then went back to it and worse. That's the important thing, that a person is truly a new creation in Christ and not merely putting on a show pretending.
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I get that. When it comes to children it suddenly becomes a huge responsibility that not everyone is built to deal with. Not everyone is meant to be parents.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#19
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#19
Would the ladies be happy if a man said that he visited prostitutes but didn't love them so it's somehow ok or they didn't really lose their virginity?
 
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Jordan9

Guest
#20
#20
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matt. 7:2

Perhaps when get to Heaven, God turns us away. After all, He's got the right to, I mean we don't meet His stipulations. And it's not that He doesn't love us or is judging us...

I'm jesting, of course. But only partially. I find it unfathomable that someone would embrace the forgiveness and grace of Christ, and then somehow feel justified in withholding grace from others. Like, the Creator of the entire Universe dies for and forgives us. On what logical grounds can we look at someone and say, "Nah, you're too icky for me." It takes a frightening kind of cognitive dissonance to do something like that.
 
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