Come on, it's so obvious I'm better than you!

[Matthew]

I'm jesting, of course. But only partially. I find it unfathomable that someone would embrace the forgiveness and grace of Christ, and then somehow feel justified in withholding grace from others. Like, the Creator of the entire Universe dies for and forgives us. On what logical grounds can we look at someone and say, "Nah, you're too icky for me." It takes a frightening kind of cognitive dissonance to do something like that.

That sums it up nicely I respect it's how some people feel and they don't intentionally mean anything bad by it, but it does seem to intoduce a clear contradiction that isn't compatible with true faith in God, you either see every christian as new and pure or you don't, cannot accept they are while saying you cannot accept them for the ways in which they are no longer pure.

Sayng it's a preference doesn't explain anything and the contradiction remains so it's easy to understand why many other christians and non-christians see some believers as willfully hypocritical, even if it's not the case by intention.

 

[zeroturbulence]

I've been reading a lot of threads about what a person must or must not do in order to qualify for a Christian marriage partner- and this is my beef with it.

There are some things in life we can't undo. To make a point-although it may be personal- I myself am not a virgin, have smoked, have done drugs, got a tattoo and a piercing, and done some other bad things I'd rather not remember. In theory, I'm pretty undesirable.

When people say things like "they must be a virgin" or "I can't date a person who has done ______" it's like saying "Those people are trash, they are not worthy of this"

They throw out the fact that Jesus Christ Himself has chosen to forgive those sins. Essentially, they choose to look at what are sometimes the most painful and vulnerable parts of an "undesirables" life and deny Jesus' message that we are worthy, loved, and charished no matter what we've done.

Get it through your head- we are NEW creatures in Christ!

By "undesirables" I'm not talking addicts- I'm talking about things we've done that cant be changed in a Christian's past. A forgiven Christian who loves Jesus and has moved on from that behavior.

I can't ever escape what I've done but I refuse to be labeled as an inferior product because of the sins of my past. I do know that I love God with all my heart and I'm open to date anyone who loves Jesus just as much as I do if I'm attracted to him.

I'm not saying dont have standards at all- I'm just saying give people a break when it comes to their pasts. You could be missing out on something you've been looking for all your life just because of your overwhelming pride.

You're right on. Its almost like being prejudice.

 

[Vidy]

That sums it up nicely I respect it's how some people feel and they don't intentionally mean anything bad by it, but it does seem to intoduce a clear contradiction that isn't compatible with true faith in God, you either see every christian as new and pure or you don't, cannot accept they are while saying you cannot accept them for the ways in which they are no longer pure.

Sayng it's a preference doesn't explain anything and the contradiction remains so it's easy to understand why many other christians and non-christians see some believers as willfully hypocritical, even if it's not the case by intention.

Ok, think of it this way- Instead of an emotional mistake, somebody made a physical mistake. As a result of some stupid decision, they had to get both of their legs amputated. Now, they've learned from their mistake, and, if given their legs back, would never even come close to making that mistake again. However, no amount of ANYTHING can get them their legs back. Now, some people will see them for the person they are, and heck, someone might be willing to love them as a partner. However, it is not wrong in any way to say, "Sorry, I want my spouse to have legs."

I know, I know, false analogy since lack of legs is actually hindering to the physical world, but honestly, lack of virginity would be a big block emotionally for me. Again, I'm saying it comes to personal preference- It's not like I'd look at YOU as dirty if you happened to be a virgin and got with someone who wasn't. So why look at me as "mean" and "unforgiving" if I choose not to do that?

And I know I'm probably grossly misinterpreting that verse (in a rush and probably just getting a vague sense of it and twisting it to fit my purpose), but it says "For in the SAME WAY you judge others, you will be judged." I myself am a virgin. If I wasn't, I would NOT expect that of my future spouse, because I couldn't keep the standard myself, so why expect THEM to?

 

[Grey]

Yes, I'm sure every Christian has done things in their past that are very regrettable.

 

[Matthew]

Ok, think of it this way- Instead of an emotional mistake, somebody made a physical mistake. As a result of some stupid decision, they had to get both of their legs amputated. Now, they've learned from their mistake, and, if given their legs back, would never even come close to making that mistake again. However, no amount of ANYTHING can get them their legs back. Now, some people will see them for the person they are, and heck, someone might be willing to love them as a partner. However, it is not wrong in any way to say, "Sorry, I want my spouse to have legs."

I know, I know, false analogy since lack of legs is actually hindering to the physical world, but honestly, lack of virginity would be a big block emotionally for me. Again, I'm saying it comes to personal preference- It's not like I'd look at YOU as dirty if you happened to be a virgin and got with someone who wasn't. So why look at me as "mean" and "unforgiving" if I choose not to do that?

And I know I'm probably grossly misinterpreting that verse (in a rush and probably just getting a vague sense of it and twisting it to fit my purpose), but it says "For in the SAME WAY you judge others, you will be judged." I myself am a virgin. If I wasn't, I would NOT expect that of my future spouse, because I couldn't keep the standard myself, so why expect THEM to?

Well you're right that is a flase analogy, please understand I am not attacking you but rather trying to understand the mental rationale that is at play within people who think the way you do.

You declare repeatedly that it's personal preference and there's no active judgement going on at your end and I concede that point, I am trying to understand why that is your preference and to that you seem to have no anwser beyond saying you would struggle to deal with it emotionally, well why?

I think that Dread_Zeppelin (correct me if I'm wrong Dread) is trying to make clear that God has already dealt with it for you and surely that is the point here that supercedes anything we think and feel, but we all have to trust in that.

You say it's a preference you have but it sounds much more like an absolute standard and you won't accept anything less.

I have my preference, and that is for a virgin also but not because I value it but simply because in an ideal world people wouldn't have sex before marriage, people wouldn't get raped and abused etc....but this not being an ideal world means I quickly learned that all the things of true value are in the heart and soul.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I'm jesting, of course. But only partially. I find it unfathomable that someone would embrace the forgiveness and grace of Christ, and then somehow feel justified in withholding grace from others. Like, the Creator of the entire Universe dies for and forgives us. On what logical grounds can we look at someone and say, "Nah, you're too icky for me." It takes a frightening kind of cognitive dissonance to do something like that.

I don't think this is about withholding grace from others. This is about choosing a life-long marriage partner and someone trustworthy and honest and someone with self-discipline. Why is the divorce rate is so high? Just lower your standards in who you want for a marriage partner. Marry anyone who comes your way, ...and then 10 years down the track wonder why it's all over. If a woman has given herself to men before marriage then it's as if she is saying "I don't want to marry for life". It's rather unfair on those who do reserve themselves for marriage if they should miss out on a like-minded virgin just because someone else expects to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[revTaco]

I don't think this is about withholding grace from others. This is about choosing a life-long marriage partner and someone trustworthy and honest and someone with self-discipline. Why is the divorce rate is so high? Just lower your standards in who you want for a marriage partner. Marry anyone who comes your way, ...and then 10 years down the track wonder why it's all over. If a woman has given herself to men before marriage then it's as if she is saying "I don't want to marry for life". It's rather unfair on those who do reserve themselves for marriage if they should miss out on a like-minded virgin just because someone else expects to have their cake and eat it too.

There is a balace between accepting someone as a friend and choosing a life partner. Many today see things in a "I'll try it for a while, there is always another option" Commitment, choice, acceptance, quality are just some of the things we need to take into consideration when choosing someone and accepting someone.
I am not a virgin myself, I bought the lies that I would need to be experienced for my partner. If she was a virgin and I were a virgin the truth is we could learn together, If the person has has a partner before. Many people think, do i measure up to her/his previous partner. If we had the previous partner and they are the virgin, we try to be patient with the other person, but they may not feel totally able to release themselves to us because they may wander about their abilities and what not.

It is difficult to compare over all these things and peoples views. But judging people who choose to take a stance on what they will accept and not accept. I dated a girl for a year and we were engaged. Then she started smoking, a habit she did not do while we dated, she quit before we ever dated. She told me I should accept her for who she was, but the person she was or was trying to be was not the same. other issues came into this relationship but needless to say we did not get married. She herself made some poor decisions after that and after Joining the military went UA... basically she left a contractual obligation, I am glad we were not married because I beleive she would have left me too. Her family had a history of divorce.... and I did not see the flags there. But perhaps that is just my personal experience.

I will accept who my partner is for who they are, I can forgive them of their past decisions if they pertain to how I perceive them and how it will affect our relationship. But as a minister it also will affect the ministry God has called me too. Notice there are standards given for men of God found in timothy and titus. I know people judge me as a minister very highly. So forgive me if I am a little picky. the last few girlfriends I have had said they could not handle being a ministers wife because of all that is expected of them.

I know I am not better than anyone, as I have shared I am not a virgin and I have made poor choices myself. If a person is continuing in the circumstance, then perhaps that is not someone to be a part of my life. smoking, additcions, alcohol, someone who feels that marriage is just a contract and not a specific relationship with ideal in place for one another. That Is why God instructs us to be pure and holy for He is Holy, we can be forgiven of these things and strive to Christlike. But consequences still occur even if we have been forgiven. So the consequences are I may not find a woman who is a virgin who wants to marry me. I have to live with that. consequences are I may have someone come up to me later on in my ministry that says they are my child (from a previous relationship before I returned to God) will that hurt? yes. But God is in control and I know He has plans for me, so I trust and obey and continue on the path to which He has called me.

Thats my 2 cents (1.54 cents in some countries)

 

[adamsmom83]

Thank you for your post. I agree with you. Many Christians have shown my grace and understanding but I feel like others are judging me. I am going through a divorce, it has been very hard and I know God hates divorce but I have no choice. I had to leave for the safety of myself and my son. Someday I would like to be married to a good Christian man but I do not know if one would marry me because of my divorce.

 

[revTaco]

Thank you for your post. I agree with you. Many Christians have shown my grace and understanding but I feel like others are judging me. I am going through a divorce, it has been very hard and I know God hates divorce but I have no choice. I had to leave for the safety of myself and my son. Someday I would like to be married to a good Christian man but I do not know if one would marry me because of my divorce.

I am sure that God can and will provide someone for you. Just do not be upset if someone who you think should be the one for you is not, God's ways our not our ways. I have thought many women would make great wives for me, balance my weakeness and strengths... but God has other plans. Seek God first.

 

[Pheonix]

One of the many things I've learned from life is that in some way or another we are all broken. So why would you expect others to not be? Instead we should be looking at others as Christ does, full of compassion and a willingness to give of ourselves to help the other person recover from their broken state instead of beating them down more or ignoring them.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I find it unfathomable that someone would embrace the forgiveness and grace of Christ, and then somehow feel justified in withholding grace from others.

Are you saying that a person must date or marry someone to show grace towards them? And if they refuse they are withholding grace?

 

[Jordan9]

I don't think this is about withholding grace from others. This is about choosing a life-long marriage partner and someone trustworthy and honest and someone with self-discipline. Why is the divorce rate is so high? Just lower your standards in who you want for a marriage partner. Marry anyone who comes your way, ...and then 10 years down the track wonder why it's all over. If a woman has given herself to men before marriage then it's as if she is saying "I don't want to marry for life". It's rather unfair on those who do reserve themselves for marriage if they should miss out on a like-minded virgin just because someone else expects to have their cake and eat it too.

I honestly hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here. Because if I'm not, then this is disgusting.

Look, there are no two ways about it. In Isaiah, God mercifully declares, "Come, let us reason together... Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." I think it is you who wants to have your cake and eat it too.

Woe to all of us if God applied his mercy and forgiveness as selectively as we sometimes do; as selectively as you and Vidy are regarding this issue.

Don't get me wrong; chastity is beautiful. It is a significant part of a virtuous, Christian life. It is the mark of a true follower of Christ. I do not mean to speak for Dread (or anyone else who may have given their virginity away callously), but I look at folks like you (who have retained their purity) with a bit of admiration and even a little envy.

However, I am really genuinely questioning if this is about chastity for some people. It seems to me, especially among men, that it is more about control and pride. The fear of not measuring up to a woman's past sexual partner; etc. This isn't true purity. It's the chastity of metal chastity belts, of hymen reparation surgeries, of honour killings and stonings.

I am appalled that you would infer that because someone may have had a rocky past, they will forever be a fickle and promiscuous person. YOU can't have your cake and eat it too. Either we are new creations, and white as snow. Or we're not. Take your pick.

 

[nanabean]

I am sure it is not a hidden fact that I am a married woman, but I wanted to say that as such, I know I have a past, my hubby has a past, and even my daughters each have pasts. I know what pasts are!

Each of us are "guilty" of SOMEthing....each of us of something different. In God's eyes...doesn't He say "sin is sin...."?? Ok....so one of us isn't a virgin when we get married, one of us has done drugs, one of us has multiple DUI's, one of us has looked at porn as a habit, etc. etc. etc. and then one of us has done none of the above...but has had thoughts that are not pure....or has lied, or stolen. Sin is sin......we can "overlook" some of these things in one, and condemn the rest for the others??? I don't think so. God doesn't...we shouldn't.

What I got from Dread_Zepplin's posts was that people change!!! Their pasts are their PASTS! They go FORWARD......and with the Lord beside them, they make better choices, better decisions, and learn from their pasts and mistakes. They should be recieved by others as being as human as anyone else. (because "they" are!!!--and I put the " " around they becasue "they" are US...all of us!!!)

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

If a man or woman is willing to live the rest of their life alone because they couldnt find a virgin to marry, then thats their choice.

 

[Grey]

If a man or woman is willing to live the rest of their life alone because they couldnt find a virgin to marry, then thats their choice.

Absolutely!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Look, there are no two ways about it. In Isaiah, God mercifully declares, "Come, let us reason together... Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." I think it is you who wants to have your cake and eat it too.

But how does that apply to finding a potential marriage partner? Your'e talking about salvation. I'm talking about marriage.

I'm sure that most of the divorce rate is caused by people hooking up with others in the name of grace and mercy and lover looking their past "mistakes" , only to find them in bed with another man 5 years down the track. The scripture says a dog returns to its vomit (Prov 26:11).

 

[zeroturbulence]

I honestly hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here. Because if I'm not, then this is disgusting.

Look, there are no two ways about it. In Isaiah, God mercifully declares, "Come, let us reason together... Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." I think it is you who wants to have your cake and eat it too.

Woe to all of us if God applied his mercy and forgiveness as selectively as we sometimes do; as selectively as you and Vidy are regarding this issue.

Don't get me wrong; chastity is beautiful. It is a significant part of a virtuous, Christian life. It is the mark of a true follower of Christ. I do not mean to speak for Dread (or anyone else who may have given their virginity away callously), but I look at folks like you (who have retained their purity) with a bit of admiration and even a little envy.

However, I am really genuinely questioning if this is about chastity for some people. It seems to me, especially among men, that it is more about control and pride. The fear of not measuring up to a woman's past sexual partner; etc. This isn't true purity. It's the chastity of metal chastity belts, of hymen reparation surgeries, of honour killings and stonings.

I am appalled that you would infer that because someone may have had a rocky past, they will forever be a fickle and promiscuous person. YOU can't have your cake and eat it too. Either we are new creations, and white as snow. Or we're not. Take your pick.

Well said, brother!

 

[zeroturbulence]

Mahogany, if you are willing to pass over beautiful, sprit-filled women just because they are not a virgin, then that is fine with me. Just remember to send them over to me please!

 

[HarpyEagle]

What I'm seeing here being the main reason is that there is fear/worry in men who are virgins and have lived a high standard of sexual purity. That if a woman who gives up the most intimate part of herself to someone she wasn't married to. Then it means she has a mind that is compromising and doesn't hold it to be sacred enough to wait till marriage ( in the case of a Christian, who was aware of God's Laws at least ) Therefore in the future, compromising in sexual purity and also other areas of marriage life can also be projected to be compromised on. While there are ( some ) of those who have chosen to make better decisions and not turn back to their old ways are certainly out there, the possibility of there being future compromise again is in the back of the mind of men who have this high standard all their life is very highly likely because such compromising in such a strong experience and leaves a mark on people ( Soul Tie - which can be broken )

Also for the women who have sexual impurity in their past, and have come to Christ and become cleansed and walk in the light. There certainly is a large amount of Christian men who have also gone down this same road in life, some understand the process and will be trusting of someone who had changed their ways or they will also be fearful of the woman ( or the woman of the man ) falling into sexual impurity after marriage or compromising in other areas of life. With all spirituality aside, and using common sense you can see the worry of the possibility of someone falling to seduction easily or seducing others because of lax standards in the past in case there's a relapse or temptation.

I tried to look at this issue from a 3rd person perspective as objectively as i can as to what the core reasons are for the topic.

 

[Vidy]

^^But that's not my reason for it. It's no really that I'm scared they'll cheat... I know the kind of stuff that signifies "Hey, I'm likely to cheat on you," and not being a virgin isn't one of those things. Now thought you mention it, though, it DOES seem more likely that she would be unsatisfied with 1 partner for the rest of her life if she's already had multiple partners, but I'm not gonna say it's a "rule" or even super common.

My reason is more that it's something I want to have. It's selfish, yes, but I'll be giving it to her, too. It's the mindset I have towards it, I guess. Marrying a nonvirgin to me just seems like I trade my virginity for nothing, instead of an "equal exchange" lol.

As to the people before who asked WHY I couldn't emotionally handle it? I have no clue, I just can't. The same reason I can't emotionally handle dating a black person, dating someone taller than me, dating someone who has certain bad habits (even if they aren't sinful), ect. There are lots of things I avoid, and this is one of 'em. Do I NEED to explain myself to make this choice? 0_o