Not By Works
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The HS was sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment.
People who do not open their eyes do so in unbelief, Those who have their eyes opened do so because they seek.
As God said, Seek and ye shall find..
The people in John 6 did not see, Because as Jesus said, unbelief.
God did not turn your eyes on, and forbid the nest person from ever having even a chance to seek, Because he di not open their eyes..
People who do not open their eyes do so in unbelief, Those who have their eyes opened do so because they seek.
As God said, Seek and ye shall find..
The people in John 6 did not see, Because as Jesus said, unbelief.
God did not turn your eyes on, and forbid the nest person from ever having even a chance to seek, Because he di not open their eyes..
The fatalistic problem
How disabled does a human have to be to not be guilty of sin, but be an innocent victim?
Let me say a person is born with no empathy and a total disorder where they cannot understand
anything other than simple tasks. Can they ever be saved or even know what this means?
Are they guilty of sin in a real way?
Brain tumors distort peoples life functions. So if a good believer gets a tumor and then goes
and murders lots of people and commits suicide, are they now innocent?
God has decided who he considers saved and who are not, who is in communion with Him
and who is not. Now is this a choice or are they chosen? And does it matter?
If you hold it is a human choice for this to be fair all have to be given the same choice.
But that is impossible, because already we vary in experience, age, perception, society
etc. So every one could say if choice was the same, when clearly it is not, God is unjust.
So God chooses, by love and His divine will. And some are destined for judgement.
The problem is some find this idea too hard to handle. I can live with it, because I hold
with annihilation, which is just. I say this because I begin to understand life and love and
the fragility of our condition and what purity means, and sin does to the soul.
Why are people in darkness, weeping and gnashing their teeth. Because this is all that
is left without God. Without life, there is only regret, because there is no perception of
what could be because it has gone.
Is life fair? No. Do we understand what life is or fairness? No. Do we know the God of love
would do the perfect solution to an impossible problem? Yes. So do you trust Him.
Implicitly.
How disabled does a human have to be to not be guilty of sin, but be an innocent victim?
Let me say a person is born with no empathy and a total disorder where they cannot understand
anything other than simple tasks. Can they ever be saved or even know what this means?
Are they guilty of sin in a real way?
Brain tumors distort peoples life functions. So if a good believer gets a tumor and then goes
and murders lots of people and commits suicide, are they now innocent?
God has decided who he considers saved and who are not, who is in communion with Him
and who is not. Now is this a choice or are they chosen? And does it matter?
If you hold it is a human choice for this to be fair all have to be given the same choice.
But that is impossible, because already we vary in experience, age, perception, society
etc. So every one could say if choice was the same, when clearly it is not, God is unjust.
So God chooses, by love and His divine will. And some are destined for judgement.
The problem is some find this idea too hard to handle. I can live with it, because I hold
with annihilation, which is just. I say this because I begin to understand life and love and
the fragility of our condition and what purity means, and sin does to the soul.
Why are people in darkness, weeping and gnashing their teeth. Because this is all that
is left without God. Without life, there is only regret, because there is no perception of
what could be because it has gone.
Is life fair? No. Do we understand what life is or fairness? No. Do we know the God of love
would do the perfect solution to an impossible problem? Yes. So do you trust Him.
Implicitly.
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That is how satan works, He takes truth, And mixes it with lie. And makes a half truth, All he has to do is get many to buy into it, and he has them hooked.
He makes a bunch of these half truth doctrines, and he has divided a bunch of people
then he takes the gospel. Makes many gospels with many half truths. and he has created the wide gate for many to go through, just pick one of the many false gospels. And left the few who find the one true gospel. to enter the narrow gate.
And that is why Paul got so angry with false teachers..
He makes a bunch of these half truth doctrines, and he has divided a bunch of people
then he takes the gospel. Makes many gospels with many half truths. and he has created the wide gate for many to go through, just pick one of the many false gospels. And left the few who find the one true gospel. to enter the narrow gate.
And that is why Paul got so angry with false teachers..
A man goes into a field as sows some wheat.
He returns to the field and harvests the wheat.
Is it unfair that some fell on path, some on the rocks, some too close to the
weeds? No, it is just how it is. The harvest is taken in, and it is what it is.
The man got his harvest, the majority where ok, and some lost. The gains
far outweighed the losses so it was a just arrangement. That which is left
behind is just burnt up and the man goes on his way.
In the real world each person choose their response, which is a product of
lots of issues, but in the end their choice. It could be their genes, their society,
their family, their heart, their education or just them themselves. But the objective
is the harvest not the reasons as to why. All we can work with is the method,
sow the seed and encourage those who are growing, Amen.
He returns to the field and harvests the wheat.
Is it unfair that some fell on path, some on the rocks, some too close to the
weeds? No, it is just how it is. The harvest is taken in, and it is what it is.
The man got his harvest, the majority where ok, and some lost. The gains
far outweighed the losses so it was a just arrangement. That which is left
behind is just burnt up and the man goes on his way.
In the real world each person choose their response, which is a product of
lots of issues, but in the end their choice. It could be their genes, their society,
their family, their heart, their education or just them themselves. But the objective
is the harvest not the reasons as to why. All we can work with is the method,
sow the seed and encourage those who are growing, Amen.
It is dangerous to label viewpoints evil or good.
It is only Gods total perspective that is truly good, and we see but a part of this.
So in this morality we are all evil.
But good and evil are not defined by our perceptions but by our actions.
And worse still you can be evil with the right perceptions or good with the wrong perceptions.
And some perceptions are just one viewpoint on an idea which has many.
The cross saves. Through Jesus we obtain the forgiveness of sins. Obedience is a sign of
friendship with Christ. Love powers life, but only Christs love leads to eternity.
Summaries can be read in many ways, yet some will be true and some false.
So if you can find the heart of a person along with their perspectives and their history, along
with their walk in Christ, you then can know the meaning of a blessing or otherwise.
It is only Gods total perspective that is truly good, and we see but a part of this.
So in this morality we are all evil.
But good and evil are not defined by our perceptions but by our actions.
And worse still you can be evil with the right perceptions or good with the wrong perceptions.
And some perceptions are just one viewpoint on an idea which has many.
The cross saves. Through Jesus we obtain the forgiveness of sins. Obedience is a sign of
friendship with Christ. Love powers life, but only Christs love leads to eternity.
Summaries can be read in many ways, yet some will be true and some false.
So if you can find the heart of a person along with their perspectives and their history, along
with their walk in Christ, you then can know the meaning of a blessing or otherwise.
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts4:27-28). Why? Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).
The parable of the Talents shows us that regardless of what God has predestined in our experiences and expectations He holds us all to two criteria: Love the Lord with all of yourself; and to love others as Christ first loved you. God's faithfulness is, in the end, just. Temporally, it can seem unjust to us, but God always has the final word on justification and righteous judgements and blessings. God does not hold His omniscience against Himself to love us in the moment, in fact He uses it to love us all the more regardless of His knowing....That, to me, is what is so amazing about my God. He loves us radically undyingly always for He cannot separate Himself from His Character.
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Yes, but actually satan's best move is to have us do good moral things, that in and of themselves are truly good, and to do them in our flesh. God can not use Himself in any of that in His power to do His will. That way the secret is kept as to whether or not even half of it is false, "Shhh!" says satan.. Unless you are in the spirit and are mature enough to know from the wisdom of God thru the Holy Spirit that anything outside of Christ is still a sin satan will have us be happy in our false-piety. He's that good of a liar, satan is!
No you didn't. He caused you too. Read Ephesians 2. You have an inability, by nature, to choose God. You submit to his calling because that is how he designed it. He opened your eyes. You didn't do it yourself.
The issue with Adam and Eve is that scripture hasn't revealed anything regarding the nature of their will. But the idea seems to be that they, although not yet in bondage to sin, still had the capacity to sin.
After the fall, all men are cursed and reckoned as dead, and dead men cannot bring themselves back to life. What if Jesus called Lazarus and Lazarus was like, nah, I'm good, think I'll stay here. Not possible. We see this theme of man being dead in sin and slaves to sin all over the bible and are given clear scriptures stating our inability to choose God in contrast with God's will and sovereign ability to choose.
Man in his inability rejects God, God in his goodness and wishing to make his mercy known chooses man out of his sin.
It seems to be that those who reject this teaching always appeal to emotion and the inevitable conclusion to all of their defenses is that it's unfair somehow, or that God owes us something. This simply isn't anywhere in the scripture.
I will concede to the fact that one doesn't have to believe in unconditional election to be elected however, so I hope we can agree to disagree on this since we both agree the Gospel is the means by which God saves and that works don't save us or keep us saved
The issue with Adam and Eve is that scripture hasn't revealed anything regarding the nature of their will. But the idea seems to be that they, although not yet in bondage to sin, still had the capacity to sin.
After the fall, all men are cursed and reckoned as dead, and dead men cannot bring themselves back to life. What if Jesus called Lazarus and Lazarus was like, nah, I'm good, think I'll stay here. Not possible. We see this theme of man being dead in sin and slaves to sin all over the bible and are given clear scriptures stating our inability to choose God in contrast with God's will and sovereign ability to choose.
Man in his inability rejects God, God in his goodness and wishing to make his mercy known chooses man out of his sin.
It seems to be that those who reject this teaching always appeal to emotion and the inevitable conclusion to all of their defenses is that it's unfair somehow, or that God owes us something. This simply isn't anywhere in the scripture.
I will concede to the fact that one doesn't have to believe in unconditional election to be elected however, so I hope we can agree to disagree on this since we both agree the Gospel is the means by which God saves and that works don't save us or keep us saved
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No he did not. God is not a respecter of persons. He wants to have a relationship with me, In order to have a relationship. You have to give a person free will. You can not have a relationship with a robot.
Again, It is the relational issue,, If you want to have a relationship with someone, You have to give them free will. To chose to recieve your love or reject it, otherwise, the relationship is fake, and non relational.
God gave Adam and eve the ability to chose. Just like he gives us all the ability to chose to say yes God, I want your salvation, or no God. I do not want your salvation.
I like what a pastor of mine said once, in order to have a relationship with his creation, he gave up his own rights in order to love us and save us, and have a true meaningful relationship with us.
Just like we give up certain rights for people we love.. (if we do not, I question our obedience to God)
Its all good.. I consider you my brother..
Again, It is the relational issue,, If you want to have a relationship with someone, You have to give them free will. To chose to recieve your love or reject it, otherwise, the relationship is fake, and non relational.
God gave Adam and eve the ability to chose. Just like he gives us all the ability to chose to say yes God, I want your salvation, or no God. I do not want your salvation.
I like what a pastor of mine said once, in order to have a relationship with his creation, he gave up his own rights in order to love us and save us, and have a true meaningful relationship with us.
Just like we give up certain rights for people we love.. (if we do not, I question our obedience to God)
I will concede to the fact that one doesn't have to believe in unconditional election to be elected however, so I hope we can agree to disagree on this since we both agree the Gospel is the means by which God saves and that works don't save us or keep us saved
Its all good.. I consider you my brother..
This is kinda my point. Man's ability to choose perfection is the pelagian heresy. Man is incapable of this, and yes, for reason of being in the flesh and in bondage to sin. Our will isn't free. Same is true for the spiritually dead unbeliever. They have an inability to choose God because they are under a curse.
Free will as defined puts the reliance of salvation on man and takes it away from God. It's at the heart of the works based salvation discussion IMO.
Free will as defined puts the reliance of salvation on man and takes it away from God. It's at the heart of the works based salvation discussion IMO.
No you didn't. He caused you too. Read Ephesians 2. You have an inability, by nature, to choose God. You submit to his calling because that is how he designed it. He opened your eyes. You didn't do it yourself.
The issue with Adam and Eve is that scripture hasn't revealed anything regarding the nature of their will. But the idea seems to be that they, although not yet in bondage to sin, still had the capacity to sin.
After the fall, all men are cursed and reckoned as dead, and dead men cannot bring themselves back to life. What if Jesus called Lazarus and Lazarus was like, nah, I'm good, think I'll stay here. Not possible. We see this theme of man being dead in sin and slaves to sin all over the bible and are given clear scriptures stating our inability to choose God in contrast with God's will and sovereign ability to choose.
Man in his inability rejects God, God in his goodness and wishing to make his mercy known chooses man out of his sin.
It seems to be that those who reject this teaching always appeal to emotion and the inevitable conclusion to all of their defenses is that it's unfair somehow, or that God owes us something. This simply isn't anywhere in the scripture.
I will concede to the fact that one doesn't have to believe in unconditional election to be elected however, so I hope we can agree to disagree on this since we both agree the Gospel is the means by which God saves and that works don't save us or keep us saved
The issue with Adam and Eve is that scripture hasn't revealed anything regarding the nature of their will. But the idea seems to be that they, although not yet in bondage to sin, still had the capacity to sin.
After the fall, all men are cursed and reckoned as dead, and dead men cannot bring themselves back to life. What if Jesus called Lazarus and Lazarus was like, nah, I'm good, think I'll stay here. Not possible. We see this theme of man being dead in sin and slaves to sin all over the bible and are given clear scriptures stating our inability to choose God in contrast with God's will and sovereign ability to choose.
Man in his inability rejects God, God in his goodness and wishing to make his mercy known chooses man out of his sin.
It seems to be that those who reject this teaching always appeal to emotion and the inevitable conclusion to all of their defenses is that it's unfair somehow, or that God owes us something. This simply isn't anywhere in the scripture.
I will concede to the fact that one doesn't have to believe in unconditional election to be elected however, so I hope we can agree to disagree on this since we both agree the Gospel is the means by which God saves and that works don't save us or keep us saved
God, remember, is love. He doesn't just use it. Thus, for us to be apart of Himself in the Kingdom of Heaven we too must be love in Christ Jesus, and that has nothing to do with preselection, that has to do with free will. Don't hold God's Omniscience against Him, and He won't hold it against you - Smile. God does owe us His love, but only because He Himself set it in motion, by way of His Character and choice.. His steadfast integrity, therefore is sound. He has chosen some to be in His family and some not to be?....have you read Ephesians? God has torn down the walls and made unity apart of all His Children in Christ, and His will is that all should be in His Kingdom...so now we can choose, after God's sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice on a Cross, to be empowered and justified by God or not.
We then can decide to live by the flesh, (which returns us to the original sin contract over a continuance in time of disallowing the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and refusing to be accountable to Him over our sins) or whether we live by our spirit unto the authority of the Holy Spirit to do that which He makes clear for us to do. Outside of that we are not liable for anything else. To some He gives one gift and expects of Him as He has given him, to another He has given 'this' gift and expects of Him in proportion to that which He has given. But without our will only robots exist. Without our will, God is a monger with an unjust intention, for if He knew one would not serve Him and had him still be born without choice being the cause and effect of that person, he would be a saddest. And we both know God is nothing short of love to the umpteenth degree. His use of His will being served has nothing to do with any malice towards any of us.
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See this makes no sense to me, I do not see it this way,
Man can not be perfect. How does that negate free will? A non perfect man can see his need of a savior. He can even chose to do morally good things (even if it is self righteousness)
I did not chose God, God chose me, he did that the moment he chose to come to earth, live a life free of sin, and die on the cross. But he is not going to force that salvation on me, I still have to say yes, I want it.. But that is not me choosing God. That is me choosing to have FAITH in god.
Again I disagree, and it puts a bad name on God to say the only peope who will be saved are only people God for whatever reason chooses to ALLOW to see his truth. It means he condemned the rest and did not even give them a chance.. That to be falls right into satans line of thinking. Not Gods. who promised to be a god of unfailing love. It also takes the relational aspect away, your a robot, not a free thinking person who can relate with God.