Revelation.

[MaggieMye]

Which is literal and which is figurative? You would need to study Hermeneutics to be able to know that. Berean has a course on it, for $74.00, but I don't know if you can jump in there since it's the fourth course in a series of 9. There are several other books to be read that will help you though. Amanzon.com, if you check the Super Savor button, gives free shipping if you order $25.00 or more.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It doesn't work because it has not been tried in a very long time.

God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Our practical common sense is to Him foolishness.

People who rely only up on what the spirit tells them I find reach the wrong conclusions .God gave us teachers for a reason. Sitting with the bible alone and expecting knowledge to appear out of nowhere from the Spirit is not how it works. I've tried that for at least a decade with the book of Revelation and it doesn't work. But as soon as I read a book that explained what meant what it all made sense.

 

[phil36]

Structurally, I think that it divides up into four parts (Ch 1-3, 4-11, 12, and 13-21) The close parallels between the plagues of the trumpets and the plagues of the bowls leads me to think there is some linear structure in those two portions. Chapter 12 is obviously a wide overview of time. While I believe the narrative is literal, there are many symbols that are not. Daniel, Zechariah and Exodus are great helps in interpreting Revelation. Also, keep in mind that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ and the most important things that you can learn in the book are about Jesus.

I like your post, particularly your observation on chapter 12. What do we thing this chapter is about? and does this mean that revelations is not linear? a timeline? This is the most prevalent modern view. but is there a linear pattern?

Everyone has put forward great posts and know one has fallen out cool! one thing we have to remember is that everyone has their own views on revelation, but it is good to go through or see how we all come to different conclusions without arguing.

Phil

 

[thecolorblue]

The mark of the beast is received by rejecting the Law of Moses. (Exodus 13: 9.)

The mark of the beast is overcome by observing the Father's commandments. (Revelation 14: 12.)

The false prophet are all the shepherds who say otherwise. (Matthew 7: 21-23.)

 

[VW]

The mark of the beast is received by rejecting the Law of Moses. (Exodus 13: 9.)

The mark of the beast is overcome by observing the Father's commandments. (Revelation 14: 12.)

The false prophet are all the shepherds who say otherwise. (Matthew 7: 21-23.)

Then I guess that I am a false prophet, because I say that we are not under the Law, but rather under the Spirit.

 

[loveschild]

Jesus will be on a white horse. Many people have seen Him with His foot in the stirrup. Yes there are dragons Their demons. Yes a beast demon will come out of the sea. Many things most people don't see in the spirit realm are very real.

As we are living in our everyday lives. There is another spirit world which is very real and very alive going on right in front of us. On the sides of us and in back of us. On top of us and under us.

You each have a angel with you but you don't usually see him or her. Theres a devil by you who whispers in your ears. You usually don't see them.

You also don't usually see the Holy Spirit but He is there none the least.

I've seen Him. I've seen Jesus a few different times. I've see a angel but in human form. They can change. I've seen, heard and smelled demons or known of their presence.

I've felt Gods good angels many times.

We are living in Revelations.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Jesus isn't in the spirit realm he has a fleshly body. So he has to ride a fleshly horse. Riding a white horse is symbolic - the colour of it, and that he is riding a horse.

 

[Israel]

The mark of the beast is received by rejecting the Law of Moses. (Exodus 13: 9.)

The mark of the beast is overcome by observing the Father's commandments. (Revelation 14: 12.)

The false prophet are all the shepherds who say otherwise. (Matthew 7: 21-23.)

You are correct, and to add more to it:

Revelation 13:15-18

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The verse here says all! That's every living man woman and child on the earth! Sin is the transgression of the law and all have sinned.

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I have stated it before, and I will state it again. If you are waiting on some form of microchip to decide on whether you can buy or sell anything you are in grave error! Buying and selling is about the TRUE Gospel message! Now let's look at verse 17.

Exodus 13:6-9

Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
7Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
8And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. 9And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

The Bible is meant to be read with a spiritual eye. A day is as a thousand years with the Lord so for seven thousand years we are to obey the Lord only! We are NOT to mix the truth of God with any pagan worship! On the seventh day is a feast of the Lord (Jesus returning to earth).

The name of the Beast. How many names do we have for God? Jehovah, YHWH, Yahweh, and Allah just to name a few. Although there are many names, how do we know spiritually that it is the Most High God we are calling on?

Exodus 32:13

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.


The Sabbath is a sign to be kept forever! It is the sign of indentification. It identifies the one true God with his people. Again, using the spiritual eye we know that a day with the Lord is as 1000 years.... But this DOESN'T apply here! In Genesis, we have God creating in six days and resting IN the seventh. Then we notice that with the forming of Adam it was the Lord God! We must be circumcised on the eighth day as we are STILL in God's spiritual seventh day!

The number of His name. Are there three in one, two in one, or one with three manifestations?

Deuteronomy 6:1-8

1Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Who is Israel's God? The same God that Jesus had! Even in Revelation, Jesus had a God!

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

God made man in His image and since then, man has been trying to make God in theirs! It reminds me of the movie "Groundhog day." Man will not come out of the sixth day into the rest of the seventh!

 

[loveschild]

Jesus has a fleshly body and a Spirit body just like you do. He can show Hisself if He so desires. He can stand right next to you and be invisable.

Witches take their spirts out of their bodies all the time and war agaisnt us.

The mind what ever you call it like Shirly Mc Claine takes her spirit out of her body.

If you are doing warfare for the Lord the Lord takes your spirit out of your body and your spirit wars agaisnt the enemy.
People that do heavy intercessing prayers can be very tired or sick because their spirits have been in a major war. The things of God some are hard for us to understand.

If we keep trying we will learn more and more as we keep going on.

 

[VW]

You are correct, and to add more to it:

Revelation 13:15-18

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The verse here says all! That's every living man woman and child on the earth! Sin is the transgression of the law and all have sinned.

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I have stated it before, and I will state it again. If you are waiting on some form of microchip to decide on whether you can buy or sell anything you are in grave error! Buying and selling is about the TRUE Gospel message! Now let's look at verse 17.

Exodus 13:6-9

Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
7Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
8And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. 9And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

The Bible is meant to be read with a spiritual eye. A day is as a thousand years with the Lord so for seven thousand years we are to obey the Lord only! We are NOT to mix the truth of God with any pagan worship! On the seventh day is a feast of the Lord (Jesus returning to earth).

The name of the Beast. How many names do we have for God? Jehovah, YHWH, Yahweh, and Allah just to name a few. Although there are many names, how do we know spiritually that it is the Most High God we are calling on?

Exodus 32:13

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.


The Sabbath is a sign to be kept forever! It is the sign of indentification. It identifies the one true God with his people. Again, using the spiritual eye we know that a day with the Lord is as 1000 years.... But this DOESN'T apply here! In Genesis, we have God creating in six days and resting IN the seventh. Then we notice that with the forming of Adam it was the Lord God! We must be circumcised on the eighth day as we are STILL in God's spiritual seventh day!

The number of His name. Are there three in one, two in one, or one with three manifestations?

Deuteronomy 6:1-8

1Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Who is Israel's God? The same God that Jesus had! Even in Revelation, Jesus had a God!

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

God made man in His image and since then, man has been trying to make God in theirs! It reminds me of the movie "Groundhog day." Man will not come out of the sixth day into the rest of the seventh!

I don't buy it man, not one bit.

 

[Israel]

I don't buy it man, not one bit.

My point exactly! You won't "Buy" what I'm "Selling" because it doesn't carry the mark of the beast.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[VW]

My point exactly! You won't "Buy" what I'm "Selling" because it doesn't carry the mark of the beast.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

No, what you are saying is wrapped up in the mark of works for justification. Of becoming embroiled again in the yoke of slavery, of not knowing grace.

I don't have any truck with what you are teaching, and I oppose it with the strength of the Spirit.

For us, the Sabbath of God is to rest in the finished work of Jesus, as He died on the cross and rose again to newness of life in God, that we might be joined to Him for eternity, if we hear His voice.

 

[angelos]

The mark of the beast is received by rejecting the Law of Moses. (Exodus 13: 9.)

The mark of the beast is overcome by observing the Father's commandments. (Revelation 14: 12.)

The false prophet are all the shepherds who say otherwise. (Matthew 7: 21-23.)

you know jesus abolished the torah right? we are under a new covenant and it is signed in the blood of the lamb.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

you know jesus abolished the torah right? we are under a new covenant and it is signed in the blood of the lamb.

Angelos,

Can you explain Matt 5:17-20 to me?

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one 3tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[angelos]

I would say he fullfilled the Tanak with his death on the cross and by his blood established a new covenant.
And if we are still under the Torah then we should be making sin and guilt offerings. Also Jesus laid aside the dietary laws of the Torah in mathew 15:16-20 i believe also in Acts somewhere Peter said we dont live by the torah not sure where that is might be wrong. anyways my point is we dont follow the torah or keep it anymore and jesus laid some of it aside during his lifetime.

 

[Israel]

No, what you are saying is wrapped up in the mark of works for justification. Of becoming embroiled again in the yoke of slavery, of not knowing grace.

I don't have any truck with what you are teaching, and I oppose it with the strength of the Spirit.

For us, the Sabbath of God is to rest in the finished work of Jesus, as He died on the cross and rose again to newness of life in God, that we might be joined to Him for eternity, if we hear His voice.

Hebrews 4:1-11

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I've stated this before as well in that Jesus gave us rest unto our souls, NOT rest from our works! You talk about the works of the law and not being yoked to them and to wrath and I agree. But we must ask ourselves "what work are we talking about?" The Bible says that He created man in His image.... so in what image is everything else that God created? The weekly Sabbath has NOTHING to do with a literal day as saturday is also an IMAGE! The 10 commandments were placed inside the ark to show that THIS law is spiritual. You believe that it is STILL wrong to kill or steal or to covet but why when the Sabbath is mentioned, people is quick to point out that we are not under the law? You say that you oppose what I teach with the strength of the spirit but You are the one still thinking as a carnal man. It's stated in the verses above that those who believe do indeed enter into His rest. Now ask yourself: "Believe what?"

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[VW]

Hebrews 4:1-11

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I've stated this before as well in that Jesus gave us rest unto our souls, NOT rest from our works! You talk about the works of the law and not being yoked to them and to wrath and I agree. But we must ask ourselves "what work are we talking about?" The Bible says that He created man in His image.... so in what image is everything else that God created? The weekly Sabbath has NOTHING to do with a literal day as saturday is also an IMAGE! The 10 commandments were placed inside the ark to show that THIS law is spiritual. You believe that it is STILL wrong to kill or steal or to covet but why when the Sabbath is mentioned, people is quick to point out that we are not under the law? You say that you oppose what I teach with the strength of the spirit but You are the one still thinking as a carnal man. It's stated in the verses above that those who believe do indeed enter into His rest. Now ask yourself: "Believe what?"

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As long as you are thinking about the Law, then you are carnal. For the Law is good if we use it rightly, that is, we know that the Law is for those who are unrighteous, and not for the righteous. You are preaching another gospel, and should consider what the consequences of that are.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I like your post, particularly your observation on chapter 12. What do we thing this chapter is about? and does this mean that revelations is not linear? a timeline? This is the most prevalent modern view. but is there a linear pattern?

Everyone has put forward great posts and know one has fallen out cool! one thing we have to remember is that everyone has their own views on revelation, but it is good to go through or see how we all come to different conclusions without arguing.

Phil

I think that apart from the vision of the glorified Christ in the first chapter, the twelth chapter is the most important chapter in Revelation. One of the great questions of chapter twelve is whether the baby born of Israel is Christ or the church. I believe it is Christ but there are Catholics and "Kingdom Now" teachers who think it is the church. also, some very liberal interpretations say this.

 

[Israel]

As long as you are thinking about the Law, then you are carnal. For the Law is good if we use it rightly, that is, we know that the Law is for those who are unrighteous, and not for the righteous. You are preaching another gospel, and should consider what the consequences of that are.

Romans 6:15-18

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

What are we to obey?

Without law means lawlessness!

1 Timothy 1:9-13
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


Paul was adept in the law. He also believed in God. He did not, however, believe the truth of God!

Revelation 22:14-15

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How do you enter into the gates of the city?

 

[VW]

Romans 6:15-18

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

What are we to obey?

Without law means lawlessness!

1 Timothy 1:9-13
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


Paul was adept in the law. He also believed in God. He did not, however, believe the truth of God!

Revelation 22:14-15

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How do you enter into the gates of the city?

Well then, Jesus is in the same boat as Paul, for two reasons. One is that Paul received his truth from Jesus by revelation, and the other is that Jesus Himself gave us a new commandment. Now you might not believe this, but the Law is one. When Jesus gave us His new commandment, He replaced the old commandment, which by the way was rejected by the people of Israel. They hardened their hearts to not hear His voice. Something else for you to consider, I am not of the house of Jacob, so according to your doctrine, I am not even able to receive salvation.

Live in the Law, that is up to you. But if you teach that we must follow the Law, then I will withstand you, every time. The Law was and is faulty, because it works through and on the flesh, and thus is not able to make anything or anyone perfect. Thus it had to be replaced by a better covenant, one that is not dependent on the flesh or even on the worshiper to become perfect, and so through Jesus, everyone who is drawing near to God through Jesus is being made perfect because He always lives to interceded for them.