Not By Works

PeterJens · May 10, 2017

I find it strange that some want to say the effect of the Holy Spirit in a life
is not important, it is the faith.

What I want to know is why is there a fascination on failure.
Jesus with the servants and the talents only one fails to invest.
The rest are ok.

Long exegesis was done on the vine and the withered branch saying it would not be
cut off but lifted up. So the excuse for this failure to admit failure is failure, get
real, failure actually defines the truth. Either the guys themselves actually have
been excluded and maybe feel that way today, so they are arguing for themselves.

So works or the effect of faith is a life, changed language, changed attitudes,
changed focus, changed lifestyle are what one expects, not forced but as a consequence
of an inner realisation of the who Christ is and what are His ways.

Any gardener will tell you, plant a seed, no leaves after 6 months, probably dead, after a
year 100% dead. God is no different, why hope for something that is not there.

Now if you have a church full of people like this, if you preach reality you will not have a
church anymore. And if you rely on the superstition of these people doing religious works,
church attendance, to gain favour with God, and giving to the ministry, the ironic thing
is the very people who saying they are not religious or living a dead faith, are supporting
exactly that very reality by their preaching and approach. Do not talk to a dead man, he
might be alive, lol

BillG · May 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

As for me works do not save. They are evidence of being saved.
But we need to take it deeper than just works as we understand works to be.

I feed a poor family and so does someone else who is not a believer.

Which us is saved?

When I say deeper if I use my example above then let's say as a non believer I don't feed the poor because I feel they are lazy and do work for a living.

Two things, I have judged and used that not to feed them.

Now having been set apart by God I now look to Jesus.

So now what should happen is my judgemental attitude decreases and my love increases.
As my love increases I want to feed the hungry and help the poor.

That is sanctification as a result of being sanctified. It's not about my works to impress Jesus it's about wanting to be like Jesus cause that is what did and has asked me to do.

I know my example is base but hopefully will point to my way of thinking.

Anyway Jimbob why billy fish?

FranC · May 10, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

The edenic? No, He did that to establish a relationship and trust. One can not have a true relationship unless the other has the option to say no Otherwise, He will not really comprehend or really appreciate the relationship he has with the other person.

Now, I am not saying adam had to sin to realise this, I am sure he realised how great God was, and how his relationship was a great thing, But I guarantee after he fell. He appreciated and understood better what he had, And would never question Gods love again.

Much like those who truly have repented, who realise where they are in the spiritual world. WOuld never question God again, Because they understood where they came from.

the mosaic, Yes I do think God gave that on purpose. And paul supports this in Galatians.

Gal 3:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

God did it for one reason only, To show us our sin, and lead us to the redeemer.

Yes, I agree,, And this is why he gave the law of moses, to lead us to understand this point. Gods grace.

I agree with all till this last sentence. God gave the Law to show us sin. Without the Law, how could we know we're sinners?
Also, the Israelites had spent over 400 years in Egypt and most of that time as slaves, so they had lost the concept of right and wrong because they were happy just to survive.
But, as I understand it, God did not give the Law to lead us to Christ.
He gave the Law for the reason you said and before the foundation of the world, God knew we would not be able to keep the Law, so He arranged for Jesus to atone, or redeem (take your pick) us from the grips of satan and death.
Do you see the difference? In one way it seems like God made us know sin through the Law to get us to Christ
In my way it seems that God gave the Law and had already prepared the soluction --- Christ.
I see the difference. It seems important to me in keeping with God's character...

I am talking pre-savation, before we repent and trust God, (and ps thanks for asking and not just assuming)

I might misunderstand, but I never assume.

I have to trust God will send all sinners to hell. And I am one of those sinners, If I am to have any hope of trustin ghim to save me.

If I do not believe God will send me to hell. I will never have salvic faith in Christ. I will nnot think I need him, I may believe he is from God. But I will never get on my knees like the tax collector..

This is interesting. This is one way of finding salvific faith. But this is fear.
The more perfect way is out of love. Love for what Jesus did for you.
Maybe He delivered you from something. Maybe not. The mere fact that He went to the cross for you would be reason enough to love Him.

PeterJens · May 10, 2017

I believe is salvation by faith in the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

Someone will say you only think that is what you believe, you actually believe is salvation
by works. Now this is not an accurate criticism.

An accurate criticism is if your behaviour maintains salvation, is a dependency, then is a way
you could be saying you are earning salvation.

It is like saying I can drive a car, and that is true as long as I do not crash. So by not crashing
I am maintaining my ability to drive a car. But this is just linguistics. Because if I can drive a car
I will not crash, it is innate in the ability to drive. So proof that I am driving the car correctly is
I am not crashing it. I am not earning my right to drive by not crashing, I am proving I can drive
by not crashing.

So walking with fruits of the Spirit are proof I am saved and walking rightly. Sin or a lack of fruits
indicates I am not qualified and am in trouble. I know the idea of maintenance is so embedded because
walking righteously is automatically thought of as impossible. Therefore without balancing the sin
with good works, ie earning salvation, it cannot be conceived there is an alternative. But it is this
disbelief that is the assumption, rather than in grace we grow closer to Christ and are transformed.

It is faith or the relationship which is counted as righteousness not our behaviour, and repentance
that works on the issues in our lives so failure and problems diminish until we reach the image of
Christ.

JIMBO43 · May 10, 2017

BillG said:

he was a good soccer player in the beano.... lol.

anyways billy the kid with ya blazing guns i find it a poor argument that works dont obtain salvation coz without them where dead

FranC · May 10, 2017

sevenseas said:

Sevenseas,
Quick...

There can be NO WORK for salvation. It is a free gift of God. We are saved, or justified by GOD ALONE. All we have to do is have faith in Jesus' completed work. If that's a work, so be it. I don't consider faith a work but a priviledge.

There are different types of work:

1. Normal works.
Did you sweep the floors this morning? Did you do it to please God? That's a work.
Do you go to a job every day? Are you nice to your co-workers to please God? That's a work.

2. Mission works.
Some works are special and one must be called by God to do them.
Missionary work, teaching, pastors, priests, etc.

3. Jesus' works.
Jesus said to do specific works in Mathew 25:34-43

Some do not want to hear the word "works". I'm still trying to find out why.

Oh. If someone does something they don't want to do, but feel God will be pleased with them - save your effort. It will count for nothing. This would be a work that will not sanctify because the Holy Spirit is not involved.

FranC · May 10, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

EG

NOT to EARN salvation, but how about to KEEP salvation?
Did not Jesus instruct us as to HOW we are to live, Mathew 5, the beatitudes
AND
how to help our fellow man, Mathew 25, feed, visit, clothe...

Jesus also said, If you love me, you will follow my commandments.
John 14:15

So, could we agee to say that nothing we do will give us salvation except our faith in Jesus,
but we DO need to work to keep that salvation...

What if we say we love Jesus but then do not keep His commandments?
Do we really love Him?

eternally-gratefull · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

I am confused, I thought this is what I said..lol

But Also remember, Abraham had no law, yet knew he was a sinner, How did he know?

Not sure what you mean. or that they lost the concept. Romans 1 says from the beginning men knew, but hid it in their heart. Paul also said the gentile, who did not have the law, Also did what was morally right, apart from the law.

But that is what Paul said is it not?

Gal 3: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith

The law condemned us, The curse of the law was death, Shown in the sacrificial system. The law was not new when given to Moses, It was written in our hearts, It was given and written on stone to give no one an excuse. And when it was given, the children of Israel had to confirm an oath, that they would confirm every word and obey them (meaning one sin would cause a break in the covenant.)

that is why the mosaic could not help, Like the edenic, One sin was all it took.. Adam took one bite, and the fall lf mankind and the curse on the earth was put in motion.

The mosaic is clear. Break one law (James said even the least of all the commands) and your guilty of the whole law. And cursed forever.

the only provision for redemption from the curse of the law was death, which is where the priesthood came in, Once a year to make atonement, But Jesus did better, he died once became a curse for us, removing the penalty of the law forever. to those who have faith.

He fulfilled the abrahamic covenant (unconditional covenant) by becoming a curse for us.

Gal 3:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

As paul said, He took the things against us (the curse of the law) the handwritten requirement (written on stone) and nailed it to the cross.
Col 2: 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

There is no more condemnation to those in Christ. That is a fact, because the law is taken out of the way, Nothing more can condemn us.

wish more people did this

I have no fear after the cross.. But I must be brought to my knees before the cross.. The tax collector understood where he stood. Condemned.

If we do not understand where we are. If we try to be like the tax collector. We will not go home saved.

eternally-gratefull · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

If you have to work to keep salvation, then are you not really working to earn salvation?

That's like saying God gave you salvation as a down payment in order to do good works. if you do them, your ok, if not, He will take his down payment offer away and you will lose salvation.

To me, that is the argument the jews made, You are saved by faith, but you have to work to keep it. Paul called them fools. who tried to be saved in the spirit, but perfected in the flesh. It is really no different.

As for obeying Jesus, Paul says those who are saved do obey Him, Jesus said they obey him, Those who do not obey him do not because they do not believe, John said that those who sin have never seen Christ, And those who have christ do not sin (not perfection, but do not live as the world)

True faith changes a person. They may grow at different speeds, But a child of God will never be one who does not obey.

My dad did not spare the rod. Believe you me, I learned not to disobey. and I know now he did it out of love and I a thankful for it. (also realizes some dads take it out to far, and this does not help in my discussion) but also realises God chastens me and he is perfect chastening, I can not resist..

These people who claim to be saved, but are hearers and not doers.. I think james tells us, they have never been saved, John said they have never seen Christ, So I will never believe God failed them, and because of it, They lost salvation. I will say They never had it..

FranC · May 10, 2017

BillG said:

You know Oswald Chambers???? LOL

I agree with all of the above except that if someone were reading long, they'd be confused as to sanctification.

First you said that it's an ONGOING process and this is 100% correct.

But then you said that we ARE sanctified by Jesus.

So this could be a little confusing.

Sanctification is an ongoing process that requires the cooperation of man.
Some will call this works. It doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is.
It requires the help of the Holy Spirit, our new nature, and our willingness to say yes when God tells us something, or steers us a certain way.

BillG · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

I think the problem is when it comes to works there is a lot of confusion of what constitutes works and how it relates to salvation, if so how so.

I did ask that question pages back but only had a few responses. Which I found intersting considering the amount of people contributing to this forum.

I think the problem today is that in order to achieve a certain goal one must work for it. Simple example being if you want to own a house get a job, get a mortgage and pay it off.

So now you have a debt, you must pay to work it off.

Simple analogy I know.

To me it is easy to consider works as not doing, that is the sins of the flesh as such. So paying of ones debt is to stop sinning.

Thats what I call sin management.

I think good works go deeper than sin management of the works of the flesh.

But please do not think I am saying that it's not ok to fight the sins of the flesh, we are called crucify the sins of the flesh and be like Jesus.

Walk in Love the lord your God with all your soul, love your neighbor as you love yourself, and deeper still, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you and persecute you.

my limited thoughts

BillG · May 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Was he? I don't remember him when I used to read the beano.

Not sure of your age so maybe after I used to read it.

I have Beano annuals from 1998-2004

sevenseas · May 10, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

ha

got you believing that do they?

the word 'but' inserted into anything having to do with salvation concludes a salvation plus mentality

again, though

WHAT WORKS???????

as in 'if you are ★·.·´¯`·.·★ REALLY ★·.·´¯`·.·★ a Christian, you will have ░▒▓█►─═ WORKS ═─◄█▓▒░ to s͓̽h͓̽o͓̽w͓̽ for it

in other words, ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ proof █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

BillG · May 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

With regard to your last sentence we will have to agree to disagree

FranC · May 10, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

You mean James 1:22-23...

James 1:21 Receive the Word implanted... plant the word in your heart so it could grow. Salvation is a one-time occurance, growth or sanctification is ongoing, it's a process. James is saying to act on the Word of God. Then he speaks about those who hear but don't act.

Isn't this like the parable of the Sower? Some seed fell on rocky places... Mathew 13:20-21
They hear the word and receive it with joy. They're saved, but it is only temporary. But then tribulation comes along, and they all away.

verse 23 is the saved man who brings forth fruit. All Jesus talked about is how we should BE and what we should DO.
If we all agree that once someone is saved good works follow --- why are we on page 340?
Why do I get scolded for saying we must do good works to CONTINUE in our salvation?
JESUS requires this, not me.

Maybe you're right. Maybe those who argue against good works are not really saved...

BillG · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

Sanctified is part of the deal with justification.
Justified and then sanctified , then set apart to DO GOOD WORKS.

Yes we are called co-operate but at times we don't.

That doesn't mean we have been unsanctified it means for a period of time or a moment in time we haven't been obedient.
But the Holy Spirit will keep pressing in on us.

if you look at the bible verse I quoted it said Sanctified, its past aorist meaning. It's not saying you will be sanctified if you do this and don't don't do that.

If we look at the verses before the one I posted

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice Paul says "this is what you were, but do you not realise you are sanctified, justified in Jesus"

Now walk in the ways that God has set you apart to walk in.

If we truly understand what it means to be sanctified and what means then we look to Jesus to help us in the sanctification process, even when we get it wrong.

I could give a real life experience of this process, from not co-operating one minute then the next doing so.

I won't post it now cause don't want to make a long post longer

FranC · May 10, 2017

BillG said:

I think the problem is when it comes to works there is a lot of confusion of what constitutes works and how it relates to salvation, if so how so.

I did ask that question pages back but only had a few responses. Which I found intersting considering the amount of people contributing to this forum.

I think the problem today is that in order to achieve a certain goal one must work for it. Simple example being if you want to own a house get a job, get a mortgage and pay it off.

So now you have a debt, you must pay to work it off.

Simple analogy I know.

To me it is easy to consider works as not doing, that is the sins of the flesh as such. So paying of ones debt is to stop sinning.

Thats what I call sin management.

I think good works go deeper than sin management of the works of the flesh.

But please do not think I am saying that it's not ok to fight the sins of the flesh, we are called crucify the sins of the flesh and be like Jesus.

Walk in Love the lord your God with all your soul, love your neighbor as you love yourself, and deeper still, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you and persecute you.

my limited thoughts

I didn't mention sins of the flesh.

Are you saying that NOT SINNING is a WORK???

Jesus did not say that.
He said to follow His commandments.
What you said in your last paragraph.

This is right.
He did say, "Go and sin no more."
We're to do our best not to sin.
But is NOT SINNING a work??
I don't think so, not sure...

eternally-gratefull · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

Because Jesus does not require good works to continue in salvation.

He requires to have faith in him, and he will save us,, And we who are saved, will do good works. (eph 2: 8-10)

Hos children are not hearers but not doers, they are doers (james)

His children do not continue in sin, They change (john)

His children are as their forfathers, they have faith which works (Hebrews and the faith hall of fame)

I am not arguing against good works I am arguing against saying works are required to be saved.

That would say I can do something to save myself. if this was true, then I must ask, Why did Christ come?

FranC · May 10, 2017

BillG said:

Sanctified is part of the deal with justification.
Justified and then sanctified , then set apart to DO GOOD WORKS.

Yes we are called co-operate but at times we don't.

That doesn't mean we have been unsanctified it means for a period of time or a moment in time we haven't been obedient.But the Holy Spirit will keep pressing in on us.

if you look at the bible verse I quoted it said Sanctified, its past aorist meaning. It's not saying you will be sanctified if you do this and don't don't do that.

If we look at the verses before the one I posted

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice Paul says "this is what you were, but do you not realise you are sanctified, justified in Jesus"

Now walk in the ways that God has set you apart to walk in.

If we truly understand what it means to be sanctified and what means then we look to Jesus to help us in the sanctification process, even when we get it wrong.

I could give a real life experience of this process, from not co-operating one minute then the next doing so.

I won't post it now cause don't want to make a long post longer

I agree with you.
I think we're saying the same thing using different words.

Also, I'd like to add that Paul used the words Justification and Sanctification interchangeably.
It was not until later that theologians (in the 2nd century) put together many doctrine --- such as the Godhead, or Holy Trinity, and Others.

So quoting J and S from scripture can be tricky.

BillG · May 10, 2017

FranC said:

I don't know him as I am not that old, did you enjoy knowing him

I do have his upmost readings and to be honest I find them very challenging and I wish I had the insight he has.

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