Not By Works

[BillG]

It it does not say Saul let salvation, it says god stopped answering his prayers and took his kingdom from him and gave it to David.

Stop trying to insert things that are not there

"edit, stupid iPad autocorrect"

Turn off autocorrect and it won't insert things that are not there

 

[Grace777x70]

You are confusing the Old Covenant of the law of Moses with the Abrahamic Covenant from which Christ came into being from. Saul lived under the Law of Moses and he was not born-again, sealed with the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said would be in us forever.

The scripture you quoted is saying that the law of Moses cannot annul the covenant put in place by God through Abraham which was bringing us the promise of Christ.

The point is Saul is not indicative of the promises and realities of the believer who is sealed with Christ because of "His work on the cross and resurrection".

Works-based belief systems use Saul to bring fear and condemnation to believers and thus are really nullifying the grace of God from operation in their lives like it was meant to. It does not come from God.

It is actually a work of the flesh called "witchcraft" in Gal. 5:19-20 - which means "the mixing of things together to get a desired result." We get the word "pharmaceuticals" and pharmacy from this Greek word.

Time ran out.....

I was also writing that - "I believe these people are well-intentioned in giving warnings but it is just that they are not accurate in their understanding of the New Covenant and of the finished work of Christ and thus mix the Old and the New Covenants up and it becomes a mess."

In essence it waters down the New Covenant and nullifies the very grace of God needed to operate like it was meant to which is to live by His life while in the world.

Jesus said that when we try to add new wine to an old wineskin and put new patches on old clothes - both gets ruined.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It it does not say Saul let salvation, it says god stopped answering his prayers and took his kingdom from him and gave it to David.

Stop trying to insert things that are not there

"edit, stupid iPad autocorrect"

Should say, it does NT say Saul lost salvation" not let salvation I missed one..lol

 

[FranC]

I just Noticed this was embedded in my quote so did not follow.. I have copied it into a quote


[/COLOR][/B][/COLOR]It is not just hypergrace It is grace. I wish that term never came around (thanks stephen)

We are saved by grace not works, if this is true, Works are not necessary to maintain salvation. because no amount of work we could ever do can cause one sin to be forgiven.

EG, I'm going to answer your last posts and then I think that'll be it. Why? Because we're discussing a nuance here --- nothing that has anything to do with the nature of God or loss of salvation. You want to call it something and I call it something else but the result is the same.

Grace is grace. Everyone understands grace.
Hyper Grace is a real movement. I don't know who Stephen is, but you could certainly thank people like Joseph Prince. And I like him a lot. He's great for teaching.

Hyper grace says all we need is faith. This is not true for sanctification.


Why would there be two different words, Justfctn and Sanctfctn, if they both MEANT THE SAME THING???

What did those that came immediate after Jesus beleive? Did they believe ONLY faith saves, or did they believe in doing good works?

Are we not to listen to Jesus? He is our Savior, but He is also our Lord. Wasn't it Jesus who said that we are to keep the commandments and also teach Others to keep them? Mathew 5:19

Are we not to love everyone, as Jesus commanded? Mathew 5:47

Jesus said we are to deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and follow Him. Mathew 16:24

Peter told Jesus that he left everything to follow Him. How did Jesus answer? Mathew 19:28 Those who follow Jesus will sit on His gloriouos throne.

What about the famous Maathew 25:35.... feed, clothe, visit... Are these not works?

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch (that does not bear fruit).

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do as I command you.

So, yes, we are to do what Jesus said. There's too much a fine line between what you say and I say IF WE BOTH LOVE JESUS.
The DIFFERENCE would be if I was working ONLY, working WITHOUT Jesus for my salvation --- in this case it would be useless.
But since we both do it out of love, the conversation becomes of little value.


Grace believers are not against works, they are against saying works must be done to stay saved, That is no different than saying we must earn salvation, because you are earning salvation by your works, Saying you "maintain it" is not changing the fact. I could never maintain my salvation, I will always require grace.. .

This is the mix-up.
You CANNOT earn your salvation. God gives that to you. JUSTIFICATION.
You must act with God to keep SANCTIFICATION. It's a combined work.
Maybe this is what we don't agree with. Not the works part of it. (although works are involved)


Yes, and one sin and they died. and the fall of mankind was enacted.. One sin, It did not atter how many sins they committed after this, One sin was all it took.


I am one of Gods children, and I love to obey God, I am not sure what the argument is, Gods children obey, Those who are not his children do not obey

But Gods children are not his children BECAUSE THEY OBEY, They are his children because of grace, they obey because they are his children.



The word is necessary. That is what is different between us,

You think it is necessary in order to (or necessary or else)

I think they are a result of ie, they are something that will happen.

Look at Abraham, He was saved and declared righteous before he did one work, But it took many years before he had enough faith to sacrifice his son, He never would have done that when he was first saved, He did not even trust God enough to keep his wife or his life safe, he lied and said she was his sister.

Gods first act of love gets us moving, His continued acts of love makes us stronger.

Yes, but Abraham Always obeyed God. He did his best to. Just like we do. Sin, or not Always listening to God has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.

I am saying that we are required to walk in God's light and to stay close to the Holy Spirit and to follow the commands of our Lord.

I think you might be getting my words mixed up with trying to get to God by doing works without knowing Jesus or having the Holy Spirit??

 

[Chris1975]

Should say, it does NT say Saul lost salvation" not let salvation I missed one..lol

Lets also use colour:

1 Samuel 10
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then a man from there answered and said, “But who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb: “Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And when he had finished prophesying, he went to the high place.

Does God do this for an unbeliever? Lol

 

[Seohce]

SAUL (as in King Saul)

After Samuel met Saul:

1 Samuel 10
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then a man from there answered and said, “But who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb: “Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And when he had finished prophesying, he went to the high place.


[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him whom the Lord has chosen, that there is no one like him among all the people?”So all the people shouted and said, “Long live the king!”



Now the Lord's view towards sin and disobedience:

1 Samuel 12
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the Lord your God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if you still do wickedly, you shall be swept away, both you and your king.”


And so Saul did wickedly. He didn't Obey the Word of the Lord

1 Samuel 15
[SUP]
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, [SUP]11 [/SUP]“I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night.
26 [/SUP]But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Then Saul went to a medium who called up the spirit of Saul:

1 Samuel 28
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord has done for Himself[SUP][b][/SUP] as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.



Stop kicking against the goads. The truth is being revealed here to you. Learn.

Amen. Praise God for the wisdom and truth in Jesus name.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets also use colour:

1 Samuel 10
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then a man from there answered and said, “But who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb: “Is Saul also among the prophets?” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And when he had finished prophesying, he went to the high place.

Does God do this for an unbeliever? Lol

again, where does it say Saul lost salvation? I do not see it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. Praise God for the wisdom and truth in Jesus name.

I would be careful saying things in Jesus name, Especially when there was no wisdom there. Only conjecture and opinion, not based on fact.

No place in that passage does it say Saul lost salvation.

 

[Chris1975]

I would be careful saying things in Jesus name, Especially when there was no wisdom there. Only conjecture and opinion, not based on fact.

No place in that passage does it say Saul lost salvation.

Lets use pink.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?


Up to 6 point font now.

 

[Chris1975]

[SUP]Deuteronomy 31
7 [/SUP]Then Moses called Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, “Be strong and of good courage, for you must go with this people to the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to inherit it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

The Law to Be Read Every Seven Years

[SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, [SUP]11 [/SUP]when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land which you cross the Jordan to possess.”

Prediction of Israel’s Rebellion

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die; call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of meeting, that I may inaugurate him.”

So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tabernacle of meeting. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.


- so to you who quote the verses that the Lord will never leave or forsake his children - lets look at the above verses, and see if there is a CONDITION attached.
- in the same chapter that the Lord promises to never leave or forsake his children, He says he will forsake them and hide His face from them.
- can any of you SEE why this is not a contradiction (note: I have highlighted with colour to make it easier to find the treasures in these woods).

 

[Grace777x70]

And yet Jesus Himself said " The Holy Spirit will be in you forever" John 14:16

Is Jesus now a liar? Did Jesus actually accomplish anything with His work on the cross and resurrection. Does the blood of Jesus have any worth?

If we keep mixing up the Covenants - we will end up in a complete mess and it creates a works-based belief system that denies Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Saul is not indicative of a New Covenant believer that is sealed in Christ for all eternity because of what Christ has done.

Lord send us more missionaries to help the unbelieving Christians to see You and all that You have done on the cross and in the resurrection.

 

[Grace777x70]

[SUP]Deuteronomy 31
7 [/SUP]Then Moses called Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, “Be strong and of good courage, for you must go with this people to the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to inherit it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

The Law to Be Read Every Seven Years

[SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, [SUP]11 [/SUP]when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land which you cross the Jordan to possess.”

Prediction of Israel’s Rebellion

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die; call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of meeting, that I may inaugurate him.”

So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tabernacle of meeting. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.


- so to you who quote the verses that the Lord will never leave or forsake his children - lets look at the above verses, and see if there is a CONDITION attached.
- in the same chapter that the Lord promises to never leave or forsake his children, He says he will forsake them and hide His face from them.
- can any of you SEE why this is not a contradiction (note: I have highlighted with colour to make it easier to find the treasures in these woods).

You do realize that the Old Covenant is not the New Covenant and it was based on the "ability" of the doers of the Law of Moses in order to receive the benefits of it. God found "fault" with that Old and brought in the New based on what Christ has done for us.

Works-based belief systems always get the gospel backwards and are trying to achieve what Christ has already done. This nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to and actually denies the very work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I really encourage you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ's work for us.

 

[gb9]

[SUP]Deuteronomy 31
7 [/SUP]Then Moses called Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, “Be strong and of good courage, for you must go with this people to the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to inherit it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

The Law to Be Read Every Seven Years

[SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, [SUP]11 [/SUP]when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land which you cross the Jordan to possess.”

Prediction of Israel’s Rebellion

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die; call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of meeting, that I may inaugurate him.”

So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tabernacle of meeting. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.


- so to you who quote the verses that the Lord will never leave or forsake his children - lets look at the above verses, and see if there is a CONDITION attached.
- in the same chapter that the Lord promises to never leave or forsake his children, He says he will forsake them and hide His face from them.
- can any of you SEE why this is not a contradiction (note: I have highlighted with colour to make it easier to find the treasures in these woods).

if you keep reading, you know, the rest of the O.T., God never abandoned Israel, even promising to be with them in Babylon, and then bringing them back.....

have some of you guys ever read the Bible. you know, all of it.........

 

[FranC]

I do not think we can have this focus if we believe works are required, If so, our focus would always be on self, and how good we are doing, always wondering if I do enough.. Even if we deny we are doing this, I think many become hardened and actually believe they are not doing this.. I know I was hardened to this fact. Until a good friend showed me..

EG
What did your good friend show you?
What changed?
Maybe this has to do with personality.
I don't worry about anything.
There would be so much to do that it would be impossible.
So I just gave up and do what I can.
That's all anybody can do.
Jesus fills in the gaps...

 

[Chris1975]

And yet Jesus Himself said " The Holy Spirit will be in you forever" John 14:16

Is Jesus now a liar? Did Jesus actually accomplish anything with His work on the cross and resurrection. Does the blood of Jesus have any worth?

If we keep mixing up the Covenants - we will end up in a complete mess and it creates a works-based belief system that denies Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Saul is not indicative of a New Covenant believer that is sealed in Christ for all eternity because of what Christ has done.

Lord send us more missionaries to help the unbelieving Christians to see You and all that You have done on the cross and in the resurrection.

From David: pleading prayer from him to the Lord (prayer of repentance)

Psalm 51
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[blue_ladybug]

WHAT DOES USING BIG FONT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING??

Lets use pink.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?


Up to 6 point font now.

 

[Chris1975]

You do realize that the Old Covenant is not the New Covenant and it was based on the "ability" of the doers of the Law of Moses in order to receive the benefits of it. God found "fault" with that Old and brought in the New based on what Christ has done for us.

Works-based belief systems always get the gospel backwards and are trying to achieve what Christ has already done. This nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to and actually denies the very work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I really encourage you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ's work for us.

And this is our part of the new covenant. We are not to break with covenant from our side, and He will never leave or forsake us:

Hebrews 10v22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

 

[Grace777x70]

From David: pleading prayer from him to the Lord (prayer of repentance)

Psalm 51
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

My goodness. You do realize that David was in the Old Covenant???

Here is another scripture from the Old Covenant. Looks like we are all in trouble.

Here is a scripture that says that if anyone who has ever sinned against God will be blotted out of the book. This means that all of us have been blotted out of God's book for who has not ever sinned? No one.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.


This is a true statement but it is not the ultimate statement of truth because what Christ did on the cross and resurrection trumps this truth.

Everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of ultimate truth.

All scripture needs to be filtered through the cross and resurrection of Christ's work or else we will be mixing up the covenants and ruining the purpose of them both - just like Jesus said.

 

[Grace777x70]

And this is our part of the new covenant. We are not to break with covenant from our side, and He will never leave or forsake us:

Hebrews 10v22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Yes..by all means - start trusting in what Christ has already done and don't let your faith be ship-wrecked by going back to relying on the works of the law and your own self-performance. It's a "grace-nullifier".

We all need to listen to Jesus when He said "Repent and believe the gospel". Mark 1:15

Hint: the word "gospel" means "good news - the almost too good to be true news". The thing about "news" - it is something that has already happened.

Believe and receive the benefits of the good news. He is faithful to us to the end and through out eternity. He cannot deny Himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, I'm going to answer your last posts and then I think that'll be it. Why? Because we're discussing a nuance here --- nothing that has anything to do with the nature of God or loss of salvation. You want to call it something and I call it something else but the result is the same.

Grace is grace. Everyone understands grace.
Hyper Grace is a real movement. I don't know who Stephen is, but you could certainly thank people like Joseph Prince. And I like him a lot. He's great for teaching.



Hyper grace says all we need is faith. This is not true for sanctification.

I think this is why their is a disconnect when we discuss things, I am not talking about sanctification. It is not even in the discussion. So why are we even mentioning it?

I am talking about justification, as is the op. Do we work to earn our justification, or maintain it, or is it by grace in God alone based on faith alone.

All grace believers (including hypergrace) agree it is by grace through faith alone.

Hypergrace is a term it seems is aligned with joseph prince because he said Grace is hyper. which is true..I never heard the term until I came in here, and Grace777 started posting some jospeh prince stuff, and stephen went on an all out war against this so called "hypergrace" stuff..

Why would there be two different words, Justfctn and Sanctfctn, if they both MEANT THE SAME THING???

They do not mean the same thing.

Justified means to be declaried righteous (the same greek word translated righteous is also translated justified depending on how word is used)

Sanctified means to be set apart. We are set apart as children of God as seperate from the world. We also are being sanctified, by the fact as we grow in christ we become more christlike.

What did those that came immediate after Jesus beleive? Did they believe ONLY faith saves, or did they believe in doing good works?

Both, They believe they were saved by grace through faith not works, And in their new creation would be the new nature that does good works.

what they di dnot believe was that good works got them saved, or maintained their salvation. That is what the jews tried to push on them, and paul spent most of his new testament writings fighting this legalistic view of salvation

Are we not to listen to Jesus? He is our Savior, but He is also our Lord. Wasn't it Jesus who said that we are to keep the commandments and also teach Others to keep them? Mathew 5:19

Are we not to love everyone, as Jesus commanded? Mathew 5:47

Jesus said we are to deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and follow Him. Mathew 16:24

Peter told Jesus that he left everything to follow Him. How did Jesus answer? Mathew 19:28 Those who follow Jesus will sit on His gloriouos throne.

What about the famous Maathew 25:35.... feed, clothe, visit... Are these not works?

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch (that does not bear fruit).

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do as I command you.

See here we go again, the disconnect between us, Can you show anywhere where I denied we should follow Christ and do all the things mentioned in these verses you just posted?

of course not, because I never said otherwise.

What I have said, is we do them BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, Not in order to GAIN or MAINTAIN salvation.

again, this is what divides us, I do it because I love God, and because I am eternally grateful for the fact he saved a wretched man such as me,

Your claim to do it to maintain your salvation (at least, that is what I am hearing, correct me if I am wrong)

So, yes, we are to do what Jesus said. There's too much a fine line between what you say and I say IF WE BOTH LOVE JESUS.
The DIFFERENCE would be if I was working ONLY, working WITHOUT Jesus for my salvation --- in this case it would be useless.
But since we both do it out of love, the conversation becomes of little value.

I still do not think you see it

I am talking about justification, Not sanctification, That is why we are discussing it.

This is the mix-up.
You CANNOT earn your salvation. God gives that to you. JUSTIFICATION.
You must act with God to keep SANCTIFICATION. It's a combined work.
Maybe this is what we don't agree with. Not the works part of it. (although works are involved)

That is the issue, and I think this may show us where we start to divide from each other in our belief.

Justification is salvation, If is offered and freely give, it is based on Christs work, It is being declaired rightious (perfect) it is a one time event (for by one offerinng he has perfected forever.... (this is justification)...Those who are being sanctified....(this is christian growth)

Sanctification is christian growth, I can be a super mature christian like paul. or a baby christian like the corinthian church. But my salvation is NEVER dependent on my sanctified state.

I am justified freely, forever, that can not be lost.

Yes, but Abraham Always obeyed God. He did his best to. Just like we do. Sin, or not Always listening to God has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.

He did?

1. He laughed at God
2. He lied about his wife twice, and could have caused her to be taken by other men
3. He commited adultry by going into his wifes maiden, and caused a war in the middle east which continues even until today.

Abraham was not always good. He was a sinner, just like I am, Not perfect. but forgiven..

Abraham has everything to do with what I am discussing, We started discussing baout the abrahamic covenant, vs the mosaic. The unconditional covenants vs the conditional (edenic and mosac) or have you forgot?

I am saying that we are required to walk in God's light and to stay close to the Holy Spirit and to follow the commands of our Lord.

Not to be saved we are not, that would be salvation by works.

If we want a blessed life, to be used of God, to commit mighty works and bear much fruit, then yes, We must do this.

But it will not make us any more saved than the baby christian who has nothing to show for his life when he gets to heaven, because his reward was tested by fire, and burnt up as wood hay and straw.

I think you might be getting my words mixed up with trying to get to God by doing works without knowing Jesus or having the Holy Spirit??

No, that is not what I am saying at all..not sure why you think this, but I will be himble and ask why you think this.

but Please try to read my words and ask questions if you are confused. I do not think you understand what the actual discussion is about.