Not By Works

[blessedjohn80]

Hey BJ
I copied straight from your post.
This way there's no misunderstanding.
I never assume... You could go back and read your post.
You said the devil is deceiving people.
Who?

You never assume?

The people I'm talking about are the ones that rely on their good works to receive/keep salvation.

Like I mentioned, the thief who got saved by Jesus is a very simple yet definite proof that
men are saved by faith alone, yet those who rely on works based salvation overlook it.

Why? Because they have been deceived into thinking that all their good works would
give them salvation or stay being saved.

But you are right, good works are good! And those who do it will get rewarded,
but it is no way a basis for anyones salvation.
That's where the deception lies.

Would an unbeliever doing good works profit him?
Perhaps in this life but it will not get him salvation.

In the same way, would a believer doing good works profit him?
Much more so in this life!
And it is because he is a believer of Christ Jesus that he can produce good works!

As believers, our good works are our expression of having been saved.
We love because we have been loved by God.
We forgive because we have been forgiven by God.
We share peace because we have been given God's peace.
And we see the good things in everything because we have Jesus in us,
Jesus who is the best of the best.

JESUS said we're to do good works.

Those who are doing good are being led by the Holy Spirit, not by the devil!

If one is self righteous before God then it is not being led by the Holy Spirit.
Remember when Jesus predicted His death and resurrection?
Peter even rebuked Jesus and said "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Jesus' response is spot on.
"Get behind Me, Satan!
You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God,
but the things of men."

Too focused on "our good works" is self-righteousness.
Let's not be mindful of the things of men.

The focus must always be on Jesus and His finished work.
Being mindful of the things of God.


But Peter was proud of himself.
He often showed off many times in front of the other disciples that he would never do this or that.
But he ended up being the one denying Jesus 3 times.

Focusing too much on self is almost always a step in the wrong direction.
But remember, Jesus did not give up on Peter even after his denial of Jesus.

That's our awesome Jesus!
That's how patient Jesus is!
And that's also how patient God the father is with us.

PS
I agree with all you've said except your comment about the thief.

Nice to know we agree on some things at least.

Pretty difficult to do good works when you're hanging on a cross.

The man was dying because of his own sins so
I highly doubt he'd be thinking to do any good works after that.
But again, you're looking at the wrong cross.
The cross that really matters is the one in the middle where Jesus hung.
So I'd say, Jesus did the best work of all mankind hanging on that cross.

Not an acceptable example. Do you have another one?

I think it's a perfect example of salvation through faith.
A scene at the cross.
Two sinners in the brink of death with no good works to show for.
In the midst is Jesus, a sinless man taking all of our sins.
One mocked Jesus, denying His salvation.
And one turned to Jesus for salvation
and received it.

Not by works = 1
By works = 0

And no, currently, I don't have another example.

Thanks for the nice and peaceful discussion.

God bless you and may the Lord Jesus give you and your family more joy, peace, love, and wisdom.

 

[FranC]

Yes..by all means - start trusting in what Christ has already done and don't let your faith be ship-wrecked by going back to relying on the works of the law and your own self-performance. It's a "grace-nullifier".

We all need to listen to Jesus when He said "Repent and believe the gospel". Mark 1:15

Hint: the word "gospel" means "good news - the almost too good to be true news". The thing about "news" - it is something that has already happened.

Believe and receive the benefits of the good news. He is faithful to us to the end and through out eternity. He cannot deny Himself.

You concentrate on the good news. And so you should.

But... REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL.

What DO the gospels tell us?
Exactly WHAT is the good news?

Is it not that by following Jesus and trusting in Him we are given the opportunity to go to heaven?
Did people go to heaven BEFORE Jesus was resurrected?

So, we follow Jesus, we trust Jesus.
Does this include what He said throughout the gospels?
I won't post again, you know the verses I refer to.
Those that tell us WHAT WE ARE TO DO AND HOW WE ARE TO BE.

 

[Ariel82]

Grace,
You keep repeating that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with believers forever and you ask if Jesus is a liar.

Let me ask you this:

If I'm a believer and one day I murder someone, is the Holy Spirit with me?

If you had the Holy Spirit He would keep you from murdering someone.

If you murder someone you never bad the Holy Spirit, but it's never to late to repent and ask God for forgiveness.

God can make murderers into believers, but people lead by the Holy Spirit so NOT murder.

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace,
You keep repeating that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with believers forever and you ask if Jesus is a liar.

Let me ask you this:

If I'm a believer and one day I murder someone, is the Holy Spirit with me?

Of course the Holy Spirit is with you. Even having sex with temple prostitutes - is the Holy Spirit with you still? Paul says "yes" when he was telling the Corinthians that when they were going to the temple prostitutes and they were taking Christ with them.

If you have an outburst of anger - is the Holy spirit with you? If you have envy towards someone - is the Holy Spirit with you?

If we have malice towards someone - is the Holy Spirit with us? Of course He is. Jesus said He would be with us and in us forever. John 14:16

All the works of the flesh are equal in terms of they are all in the same lists and the Holy Spirit does not leave us because we walk by the flesh.

The Holy Spirit does not go in and out of us every time we do something that is not Christ like. That's a horrible religion.

My goodness - what a mess that would be and it's not even remotely close to the truth that we are a new creation in Christ - now it's time to renew our minds to depend on His grace in and through us to bear His fruit in our lives.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Ariel, so that Fran can see it, maybe you could pull forward the post you made about the two types of works we do.

 

[FranC]

He showed me to stop trying to earn Gods love and favor by how good I am, and just go out and serve God and hen I fall repent, and get back on the horse and move on.

My salvation is secure I have nothing to fear. Because God will never leave me.

I gained huge victory over a lot of sin once I finally put that in my head that I am secure in christ, sealed with the spirit.

You can't earn God's love. That't what Grace is all about.
It's nice to return the love though.
HOW do we return it?
By loving Him back.
How do you show your wife you love her?
(or your girlfriend, or your mother or sister)

 

[Grace777x70]

You concentrate on the good news. And so you should.

But... REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL.

What DO the gospels tell us?
Exactly WHAT is the good news?

Is it not that by following Jesus and trusting in Him we are given the opportunity to go to heaven?
Did people go to heaven BEFORE Jesus was resurrected?

So, we follow Jesus, we trust Jesus.
Does this include what He said throughout the gospels?
I won't post again, you know the verses I refer to.
Those that tell us WHAT WE ARE TO DO AND HOW WE ARE TO BE.

Works-based salvationists say that we need to do things in order to be saved. The gospel of the grace of Christ says to believe in Christ and this right believing will bring about His life in us that will bear His fruit on us the branches.

Works-based salvationsits always get the gospel and the things of God backwards.

They see the "descriptions" of what the Christian life looks like when Jesus is manifesting His life in us and then they try to "dictate" that we produce that in order to be saved.

This is called works-based righteousness in which we believe we are righteous or saved by what we do or don't do. Just like Paul talks about in Romans 10:2-4

 

[Chris1975]

If you had the Holy Spirit He would keep you from murdering someone.

If you murder someone you never bad the Holy Spirit, but it's never to late to repent and ask God for forgiveness.

God can make murderers into believers, but people lead by the Holy Spirit so NOT murder.

Well, David effectively got Bathshebas' husband (Uriah killed) by putting him on the front line and then instructed the troops to withdraw. That's effectively murder. Then we see David in repentance, pleading with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

So yes it is still possible to murder even though someone has the Holy Spirit.

We see the true issue with David. He was led by the flesh when lusting after Bathsheba. She fell pregnant, and then he was led by the flesh to cover this up. All his plans failed, so he was led by the flesh to have Uriah killed.

Only when Nathan confronted him did he get cut to the heart and fall upon the Lord's mercy.

It comes down to this - a believer can CHOOSE to either walk according to the Flesh or the Spirit. Those who walk according to the Flesh will die. Those who walk according to the Spirit will live.

The ONLY way back to God's heart is godly sorrow and repentance.

David still paid a price here on earth (lost 4 children as judgement) but he was saved eternally. Should David have fallen away, like Saul, there would not have been eternal salvation.

We see this with David's son Solomon. Who started his journey is such a magnificent way, but towards the end of his life, he lost his way. He never truly came back to the Lord, despite all of the wisdom the Lord gave him. His sins eventually drew him away totally from the Lord.

 

[FranC]

Nice try.

It says those who do not believe are in a state of condemnation already, it did not say they had salvation and lost it.

Jesus said in John 6 whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst Live FOREVER, NEVER DIE, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RISEN ON THE LAST DAY.

did Jesus lie?

When are you going to stop trusting in yourself and start trusting in God? Why Mock God and his promise? you should be ashamed.

EG,

WHOEVER BELIEVES.... will never hunger, thirst, will live forever...

What if someone STOPS BELIEVING?

You know, I'm thinking that many here say that I see works too much,
Maybe some here see Grace too much and are neglecting to see other truths??

 

[slave]

He showed me to stop trying to earn Gods love and favor by how good I am, and just go out and serve God and hen I fall repent, and get back on the horse and move on.

My salvation is secure I have nothing to fear. Because God will never leave me.

I gained huge victory over a lot of sin once I finally put that in my head that I am secure in christ, sealed with the spirit.

It is indeed a wonder to behold the fullness of grace; and it starts with the free gift of Salvation - not by works - AMEN!. But that is only the start in the process of understanding what has been given you, I sense a finished its over attitude, now just do what I can do piece by piece ebbing in and out, with God gracing you in the gaps...but Jesus is the river of life not the ocean of life. His desires are not for us to ebb at all; to recede back and forth.I read your words that say you are not indifferent to Him. When we sin we are indifferent to Him, despite a process of getting to live as Jesus lived. My point is this: One must go thru many experiences to get again back at appreciating the fullness of God's grace, and one is that He desires for us to sin no more!.

One must experience a contrite spirit: (Psalm 34:18); (Isaiah 57:15); (Isaiah 29:24).

One must experience a Broken spirit: (Psalm 51:17), Some believers, after committing sins, remain unperturbed in their spirit as if nothing happened. A healthy spirit invariably would be broken.

One must experience a poor spirit: (Matthew 5:3).

One must experience a meek spirit: (Galatians 6:1); (1 Peter 2:23).

One must experience a humble spirit: (Proverbs 16:19); (Proverbs 29:23); (Isaiah 57:15).

One must experience a fervent spirit, towards HIs will: (Romans 12:11).

One must experience a cool spirit: (Proverbs 17:27).

One must experience a rejoicing spirit on the grounds of God: (Luke 1:47); (Psalm 51:17).

One must experience a non-cowardice spirit, (or, a confident spirit from being a slave to righteousness.not a quickened haughty spirit): (2 Timothy 1:7).

One must experience a Quiet spirit: (1 Peter 3:4); (1 Thes. 4:11).

One must experience a New spirit: (Romans 7:6); (John 6:57).

One must experience a Holy spirit (given by the Holy Spirit): (1 Corinthians 7:34); (2 Corinthians 7:1).

One must experience a Strong spirit: (Luke 1:80); (Proverbs 18:14).

And then there's the Oneness of spirit we need to experience, (Phil. 1:27); and then as we come full-circle we can appreciate the fullness of Christ in experiencing the spirit in the fullness of grace. (Galatians 6:18).

"Contrite" in the original text has the meaning of "beaten." God is pleased when the spirit of the believer is very careful, as if it is always under rebuke and beating, fearing God and His word. A believer's spirit must reach a stage of constantly fearing God. This is an attitude of respect, not an actual beating down of the Holy Spirit, but a beating down of the flesh and a chain of command in our spirit. The presumptuous and self-willed heart must be completely broken, allowing the word of God to be the guide in all things. A believer must have this holy respect, having absolutely no trust in himself. Since his spirit has already been beaten, he dares not lift up his head; instead, he always obeys the command of God. A hardened spirit is always an obstacle in obeying the will of God.

Only after the cross has accomplished a thorough work in enabling the believer to clearly know the unreliability of his ideas, feelings, and desires does he dare not become presumptuous. He becomes extremely cautious in all things, knowing that they will doubtlessly fail without the intervening and keeping power of God. We must not become independent of God. Whenever our spirit ceases to tremble, it will have an independent (presumptuous) intent. We rely on God only when we realize that we are in a completely helpless situation. A trembling spirit keeps us from failing and causes us to really know God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God doesn't change His mind.
Persons can change their mind.

God knew that persons mind before he was even born.

We can not fool God..

 

[Chris1975]

It is indeed a wonder to behold the fullness of grace; and it starts with the free gift of Salvation - not by works - AMEN!. But that is only the start in the process of understanding what has been given you, I sense a finished its over attitude, now just do what I can do piece by piece ebbing in and out, with God gracing you in the gaps...but Jesus is the river of life not the ocean of life. His desires are not for us to ebb at all; to recede back and forth.I read your words that say you are not indifferent to Him. When we sin we are indifferent to Him, despite a process of getting to live as Jesus lived. My point is this: One must go thru many experiences to get again back at appreciating the fullness of God's grace, and one is that He desires for us to sin no more!.

One must experience a contrite spirit: (Psalm 34:18); (Isaiah 57:15); (Isaiah 29:24).

One must experience a Broken spirit: (Psalm 51:17), Some believers, after committing sins, remain unperturbed in their spirit as if nothing happened. A healthy spirit invariably would be broken.

One must experience a poor spirit: (Matthew 5:3).

One must experience a meek spirit: (Galatians 6:1); (1 Peter 2:23).

One must experience a humble spirit: (Proverbs 16:19); (Proverbs 29:23); (Isaiah 57:15).

One must experience a fervent spirit, towards HIs will: (Romans 12:11).

One must experience a cool spirit: (Proverbs 17:27).

One must experience a rejoicing spirit on the grounds of God: (Luke 1:47); (Psalm 51:17).

One must experience a non-cowardice spirit, (or, a confident spirit from being a slave to righteousness.not a quickened haughty spirit): (2 Timothy 1:7).

One must experience a Quiet spirit: (1 Peter 3:4); (1 Thes. 4:11).

One must experience a New spirit: (Romans 7:6); (John 6:57).

One must experience a Holy spirit (given by the Holy Spirit): (1 Corinthians 7:34); (2 Corinthians 7:1).

One must experience a Strong spirit: (Luke 1:80); (Proverbs 18:14).

And then there's the Oneness of spirit we need to experience, (Phil. 1:27); and then as we come full-circle we can appreciate the fullness of Christ in experiencing the spirit in the fullness of grace. (Galatians 6:18).

"Contrite" in the original text has the meaning of "beaten." God is pleased when the spirit of the believer is very careful, as if it is always under rebuke and beating, fearing God and His word. A believer's spirit must reach a stage of constantly fearing God. This is an attitude of respect, not an actual beating down of the Holy Spirit, but a beating down of the flesh and a chain of command in our spirit. The presumptuous and self-willed heart must be completely broken, allowing the word of God to be the guide in all things. A believer must have this holy respect, having absolutely no trust in himself. Since his spirit has already been beaten, he dares not lift up his head; instead, he always obeys the command of God. A hardened spirit is always an obstacle in obeying the will of God.

Only after the cross has accomplished a thorough work in enabling the believer to clearly know the unreliability of his ideas, feelings, and desires does he dare not become presumptuous. He becomes extremely cautious in all things, knowing that they will doubtlessly fail without the intervening and keeping power of God. We must not become independent of God. Whenever our spirit ceases to tremble, it will have an independent (presumptuous) intent. We rely on God only when we realize that we are in a completely helpless situation. A trembling spirit keeps us from failing and causes us to really know God.

^^^ the above piece is beautifully constructed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


- was Saul an example of an overcomer?

Did saul rely on his works, Or on God?

Who are you relying on? Your works (how good you are) Or God (the cross)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


- was Saul an example of an overcomer?

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If works are not nfecessary to keep salvation, why do we do them?
Because we love God? OK.
But what if I don't feel like doing them?
Am I still a member of the Kingdom if I don't follow Kingdom rules?

If I join a golf club and then mess up the grounds...can I still be a member?
Does God NOT HAVE RULES??

Can we each just go around doing whatever we want to do?

So our salvation is dependent on our works. Can't you see this is what you are saying?

Blessed are you if you follow God, thats why I do them. because that is what brings joy, and blessings..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say we are saved, sealed, justified and sancitified in Christ positionally forever...

So, you don't believe sanctification is an ongoing process?
You say we're POSITIONALLY sanctified --- so we could DO NOTHING forever?

Please provide scripture verses... for example Galatians.

there are two types of sanctification.

Positional and conditional.

We are set apart positionally by the fact we are in christ (sonship)

We are set apart in our daily lives conditionally by how well we resemble christ (lordship)

one remains forever,

one can go up and down many times in just one day,, One can be walking in the light one minute, and someon cut them off on the highway, and instead of forgiving like God, we get mad, and a little road rage sets in, We have went from sanctified, to unsanctified in one minute..

but did we lose our salvation because of those sins?

 

[Grace777x70]

We need to be boldly preaching and teaching the love and grace of God in Christ because it is the only thing that teaches us how to live godly in this present world. It also shows us how to walk by the spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's desires".

This will stop the works of the flesh from operating in our lives. Preaching Christ and the word of His grace is paramount to us believers to receiving in this life the inheritance that is ours because we are in Christ and to build us up in Him.

Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


All the works of the flesh bring death and destruction in some form to all of us in this life. Having our minds renewed to the things that Christ has already done and who we are now as a new creation in Christ is paramount to walking by the spirit.

This will stop us from murdering others or having malice or slandering others in the body of Christ. It will stop us from having outbursts of anger, from being envious, causing strife, committing sexual sins. All of these are in the very same lists as well as many other things "like these".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blue,
The good thief on the cross is NOT a good example of someone who is saved but does not do good works.
He COULDN'T do good works, so how would that be a good example???

Yet he did do a good work, He praised Jesus..And his work is a testimony to us today that all it takes is to have faith in Christ, and we will be saved, and be with him in paradise.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yet he did do a good work, He praised Jesus..And his work is a testimony to us today that all it takes is to have faith in Christ, and we will be saved, and be with him in paradise.

The thief did the good work of believing in Christ and did the Father's will. That is how people are saved.

John 6:40 (NASB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grace,
You keep repeating that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with believers forever and you ask if Jesus is a liar.

Let me ask you this:

If I'm a believer and one day I murder someone, is the Holy Spirit with me?

Ask David,

He was called a man after Gods own Heart, And THEN many years later, Committed adultry, Got a mans wife pregnant, and murdered her husband to hid his sin.

Then ask yourself. If you commited murder What makes you any worse than the person next to you who said the white lie to protect herself, Who got mad at his brother because his brother did not do sometime for him, A person who stole a pen because they forgot their own..

You all would be guilty, you all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.