Not By Works

[FranC]

No one was ever saved by law, Ever maintained their salvation by law. or lost their salvation by not keeping the law.

So I am not sure what your point is.

Your right the law is not abolished, as long as people need led to christ, they will always need a tutor..



You still can not keep the law as required (every word) thus the law today would still condemn you where you stand, and myself

I obey the law of love, inn doing so, I fulfill the law and prophets. But I am not perfect. so if God did not take the words written against me and contrary to me (the law and the curse of the law) I would die in my sin.

The law will never make you righteous.

DOES that mean we sin more? May it not be so. We sin less. Because as paul said, the law came and sin increased, it did not decrease..

that is the same today as it was in moses day.

We're not understanding each other EG, but it's OK. Spiritual Language is not easy.
I know we cannot keep the law. If you break one commandment, you've broken them all.
We're both good, so let's leave it at that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

WHOEVER BELIEVES.... will never hunger, thirst, will live forever...

What if someone STOPS BELIEVING?

You know, I'm thinking that many here say that I see works too much,
Maybe some here see Grace too much and are neglecting to see other truths??

Does never mean never or not?

If never can be lost. then it was never "never" and God lied. Because he can not say a person will never die, if their is still a possibility they can die.

Jesus said a person who placed their faith in christ possessed those things, if they can be lost. then Jesus promise is meaningless.. because he lied.

 

[Ariel82]

Well, David effectively got Bathshebas' husband (Uriah killed) by putting him on the front line and then instructed the troops to withdraw. That's effectively murder. Then we see David in repentance, pleading with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

So yes it is still possible to murder even though someone has the Holy Spirit.

We see the true issue with David. He was led by the flesh when lusting after Bathsheba. She fell pregnant, and then he was led by the flesh to cover this up. All his plans failed, so he was led by the flesh to have Uriah killed.

Only when Nathan confronted him did he get cut to the heart and fall upon the Lord's mercy.

It comes down to this - a believer can CHOOSE to either walk according to the Flesh or the Spirit. Those who walk according to the Flesh will die. Those who walk according to the Spirit will live.

The ONLY way back to God's heart is godly sorrow and repentance.

David still paid a price here on earth (lost 4 children as judgement) but he was saved eternally. Should David have fallen away, like Saul, there would not have been eternal salvation.

We see this with David's son Solomon. Who started his journey is such a magnificent way, but towards the end of his life, he lost his way. He never truly came back to the Lord, despite all of the wisdom the Lord gave him. His sins eventually drew him away totally from the Lord.

We will ignore that they are under the Old Covenant and did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit for a moment.

.instead, I will ask: is Solomon in hell?

 

[FranC]

IMO, there is no such thing as "hyper" grace. Grace is grace, period. The bible does NOT speak of hyper grace.. It says "by grace you are saved". It does NOT say "by HYPER grace you are saved"..

Grace is God's grace.
Hyper grace is man saying we need to do nothing but believe.
WOF is also a man made movement.
Nothing made by man can be good...

(I mean adding to the bible, of course)

 

[garee]

You concentrate on the good news. And so you should.

But... REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL.

I would offer let the good news work in us. Because we believe the gospel, the word of God... we can repent. If he does not first turn us to make it possible no man could truly repent they would be speaking into the air. He must do the first work of turning us.We can love Him because He first loved us in that way

I think Jeremiah speaks of the work of God turning us so that after we are turned we can repent. The turning gives us the comfort we do know Him who dwells in us


I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.(childish things) Jer 31:18

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is indeed a wonder to behold the fullness of grace; and it starts with the free gift of Salvation - not by works - AMEN!. But that is only the start in the process of understanding what has been given you, I sense a finished its over attitude, now just do what I can do piece by piece ebbing in and out, with God gracing you in the gaps...but Jesus is the river of life not the ocean of life. His desires are not for us to ebb at all; to recede back and forth.I read your words that say you are not indifferent to Him. When we sin we are indifferent to Him, despite a process of getting to live as Jesus lived. My point is this: One must go thru many experiences to get again back at appreciating the fullness of God's grace, and one is that He desires for us to sin no more!.

One must experience a contrite spirit: (Psalm 34:18); (Isaiah 57:15); (Isaiah 29:24).

One must experience a Broken spirit: (Psalm 51:17), Some believers, after committing sins, remain unperturbed in their spirit as if nothing happened. A healthy spirit invariably would be broken.

One must experience a poor spirit: (Matthew 5:3).

One must experience a meek spirit: (Galatians 6:1); (1 Peter 2:23).

One must experience a humble spirit: (Proverbs 16:19); (Proverbs 29:23); (Isaiah 57:15).

One must experience a fervent spirit, towards HIs will: (Romans 12:11).

One must experience a cool spirit: (Proverbs 17:27).

One must experience a rejoicing spirit on the grounds of God: (Luke 1:47); (Psalm 51:17).

One must experience a non-cowardice spirit, (or, a confident spirit from being a slave to righteousness.not a quickened haughty spirit): (2 Timothy 1:7).

One must experience a Quiet spirit: (1 Peter 3:4); (1 Thes. 4:11).

One must experience a New spirit: (Romans 7:6); (John 6:57).

One must experience a Holy spirit (given by the Holy Spirit): (1 Corinthians 7:34); (2 Corinthians 7:1).

One must experience a Strong spirit: (Luke 1:80); (Proverbs 18:14).

And then there's the Oneness of spirit we need to experience, (Phil. 1:27); and then as we come full-circle we can appreciate the fullness of Christ in experiencing the spirit in the fullness of grace. (Galatians 6:18).

"Contrite" in the original text has the meaning of "beaten." God is pleased when the spirit of the believer is very careful, as if it is always under rebuke and beating, fearing God and His word. A believer's spirit must reach a stage of constantly fearing God. This is an attitude of respect, not an actual beating down of the Holy Spirit, but a beating down of the flesh and a chain of command in our spirit. The presumptuous and self-willed heart must be completely broken, allowing the word of God to be the guide in all things. A believer must have this holy respect, having absolutely no trust in himself. Since his spirit has already been beaten, he dares not lift up his head; instead, he always obeys the command of God. A hardened spirit is always an obstacle in obeying the will of God.

Only after the cross has accomplished a thorough work in enabling the believer to clearly know the unreliability of his ideas, feelings, and desires does he dare not become presumptuous. He becomes extremely cautious in all things, knowing that they will doubtlessly fail without the intervening and keeping power of God. We must not become independent of God. Whenever our spirit ceases to tremble, it will have an independent (presumptuous) intent. We rely on God only when we realize that we are in a completely helpless situation. A trembling spirit keeps us from failing and causes us to really know God.

By reading your post. Inless you are sinless. You have not done what you said must be done.

If relying on Christ, and not on my own power is pompous, and presumptuous.. Then what hope can we ever have?

Jesus saved me, Eternally, That is the beginning.

I learn every day to walk in him, to trust him, To walk in his way, Knowing that I will not get it right every time, I will mess up I will lean on self from time to time,

If I have to worry that I lose salvation if I do not live up to some standard. then I have no hope. only fear.. All I could do at best is hide my own fear, or replace it with rage, rage at the people who profess salvation is solely of Grace through faith, and that there is no work possible we could do to forgive one sin, let alone the many sins we commit each month.

That is not hope.. And that is not from God.

if thats what you want, You can have it

Me? I will trust God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grace is God's grace.
Hyper grace is man saying we need to do nothing but believe.
WOF is also a man made movement.
Nothing made by man can be good...

(I mean adding to the bible, of course)

Grace is Gods grace, It is hyper by its mere definition, It can never be earned, Gods love is hyper, it is unending, his forgiveness is long lasting..

while I do not agree with the WOF movement,,(a doctrinal position) I do not see anything wrong with their gospel. (the good news of Jesus christ and how we get to heaven).

 

[slave]

^^^ the above piece is beautifully constructed.

[h=1]James 1:17New International Version (NIV)[/h]17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

 

[FranC]

1. Its not a golf club membership it's adoption into God's family.
.2. Would you return a child you adopted or would you teach them your rules?

3. Why do people believe God less powerful or loving than human parents?

1. You don't like analogies. OK. I could still use them though.
2. I'd teach the child my rules. Which is what I'm saying.
2b. Some kids are returned. Check it out...
3. God is more powerful and loving than human parents.
Now YOU are using an analogy!

He also requires more.
Do you know why?

Because we're not under a Contract with God.
We're under a Covenant.

A contract creates customers, clients, employees, etc.
A Covenant creates a family: husbands, wives, parents, children, etc.

From whom do you expect more?

An emplyee or your child?

 

[garee]

Grace is God's grace.
Hyper grace is man saying we need to do nothing but believe.
WOF is also a man made movement.
Nothing made by man can be good...

(I mean adding to the bible, of course)

I would offer grace is hyper as the highest point of his mercy. Having it in respect to ones own self destroys His work of faith as His three day labor of love.As always he must increase as we decrease.

His grace teaches us to say no to a righteousness of ones own self.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. You don't like analogies. OK. I could still use them though.
2. I'd teach the child my rules. Which is what I'm saying.
2b. Some kids are returned. Check it out...
3. God is more powerful and loving than human parents.
Now YOU are using an analogy!

He also requires more.
Do you know why?

Because we're not under a Contract with God.
We're under a Covenant.

A contract creates customers, clients, employees, etc.
A Covenant creates a family: husbands, wives, parents, children, etc.

From whom do you expect more?

An emplyee or your child?

Your right, God requires more, He requires sinless perfection.

Unless you have met that standard, You fall short of Gods glory

And are in need of grace

I can not earn that grace it has to be freely given.

 

[FranC]

I've explained this many, many times before. We do them because God asks us to do them. We do NOT do them in order to remain saved. So you don't feel like mowing your disabled neighbor's yard today (example)? That's ok, if you don't do it, that does NOT mean that you won't remain saved. YES, we are still members of God's kingdom even if we don't do works everyday. BUT that does not give us a free pass to do whatever we want, and say, "it's okay, I'm saved so I'll sin today"..

And no, God does not have rules. He has requirements. Just as a golf club has requirements that you not destroy their property. You might get yelled at, but you probably won't have your golfing privileges revoked either. Likewise, God isn't going to take away your salvation, if you don't do good works every day. There is only ONE way to lose salvation and that is to deny that Jesus ever existed.

Blue,

If you ever join a club, read the rules carefully before you sign!

Also, GOD DOES HAVE RULES. I'm sure you know them. There's 10 of 'em. At least. And if we love Him, even more - although the two Jesus left us with pretty much cover everything. He was sooooo smart!!

 

[Chris1975]

Did saul rely on his works, Or on God?

Who are you relying on? Your works (how good you are) Or God (the cross)

The bible is very clear. Adam received an instruction: Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The woman was DECEIVED through the "world" - namely the lust of the eyes, flesh and pride of life. She then believed the Serpent, and no longer believed God. She ate, and gave to Adam, and he ate. Their disobedience led to the fall.

Saul received instruction from the Lord. His disobedience led to the fall.

Now because we have the cross of Christ, and the forgiveness of sins, do you think God has changed his opinion about disobedience? The cross MAKES A WAY for reconciliation to God. Whilst we were DEAD in trespasses, Christ died for us. Now that you have received the forgiveness, and penalty paid - now are you free to live like the world?

By no means!

 

[slave]

By reading your post. Inless you are sinless. You have not done what you said must be done.

If relying on Christ, and not on my own power is pompous, and presumptuous.. Then what hope can we ever have?

Jesus saved me, Eternally, That is the beginning.

I learn every day to walk in him, to trust him, To walk in his way, Knowing that I will not get it right every time, I will mess up I will lean on self from time to time,

If I have to worry that I lose salvation if I do not live up to some standard. then I have no hope. only fear.. All I could do at best is hide my own fear, or replace it with rage, rage at the people who profess salvation is solely of Grace through faith, and that there is no work possible we could do to forgive one sin, let alone the many sins we commit each month.

That is not hope.. And that is not from God.

if thats what you want, You can have it

Me? I will trust God..

I am but a wretched man, but by the grace of God, He loves me so, that He has made me innocent by paying the price of my sins, and now He carries me to His Best, which is the freedom from sin and its particulars viz., sins. And freedom from the world's system. Why must I be sinless to be heading toward no sins? I too have had the experience of over-coming sinful strongholds satan had me in, but as I move on in His light and purposes, I know and have faith that I am capable of sinning no more, so my strongholds have been broken, and I fight the good fight putting on the full Armor of God, and I remain in an attitude of repentance, as He finishes His work in me. You do need to be concerned with God's perspectives on your life; He after all He is your judge, you are not His. We never lose our chain of command for all of eternity, He will never be our son, He will always be your Father. But in that chain of command I have all the hope a man could ask for. To be free from sin by Christ on a Cross, and to please God in so living the life of Christ and serving His intentions and purposes. Your lack of faith, grieves His Spirit.

 

[Chris1975]

We will ignore that they are under the Old Covenant and did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit for a moment.

.instead, I will ask: is Solomon in hell?

What are the greatest commandments?

Love God; Love your Neighbour (para).

Now let's look at the bible's description of Solomon in his last days:

1 Kings 11
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David.

When your wife (or husband) is not loyal to you ---- you call him/her UNFAITHFUL.
And we can only receive God's grace through ------ FAITH.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Those aren't rules. Those are commandments. And since we're human, and God knows we will most likely break them all, they are more requirements than commandments.. God knows we won't do works every day. That doesn't mean that He will take away our salvation for it.

Blue,

If you ever join a club, read the rules carefully before you sign!

Also, GOD DOES HAVE RULES. I'm sure you know them. There's 10 of 'em. At least. And if we love Him, even more - although the two Jesus left us with pretty much cover everything. He was sooooo smart!!

 

[Magenta]

I am but a wretched man, but by the grace of God, He loves me so, that He has made me innocent by paying the price of my sins, and now He carries me to His Best, which is the freedom from sin and its particulars viz., sins. And freedom from the world's system. Why must I be sinless to be heading toward no sins? I too have had the experience of over-coming sinful strongholds satan had me in, but as I move on in His light and purposes, I know and have faith that I am capable of sinning no more, so my strongholds have been broken, and I fight the good fight putting on the full Armor of God, and I remain in an attitude of repentance, as He finishes His work in me. You do need to be concerned with God's perspectives on your life; He after all He is your judge, you are not His. We never lose our chain of command for all of eternity, He will never be our son, He will always be your Father. But in that chain of command I have all the hope a man could ask for. To be free from sin by Christ on a Cross, and to please God in so living the life of Christ and serving His intentions and purposes. Your lack of faith, grieves His Spirit.

Such a lovely post. Do you never sin, then? I think that is what people are constantly trying to get at. Yes, through Jesus Christ we have overcome the world, but we have yet to put on incorruptibility. Acknowledging that we are still in the flesh, and sometimes fail to live up to His perfect standard, is not something that grieves the Lord but rather something that is required of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are the greatest commandments?

Love God; Love your Neighbour (para).

Now let's look at the bible's description of Solomon in his last days:

1 Kings 11
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David.

When your wife (or husband) is not loyal to you ---- you call him/her UNFAITHFUL.
And we can only receive God's grace through ------ FAITH.

are you perfect? Lets hear it, Are you sinless?

 

[blue_ladybug]

And also, it is impossible to keep the 10 commandments. I've probably broken all of them at one time or another..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The bible is very clear. Adam received an instruction: Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The woman was DECEIVED through the "world" - namely the lust of the eyes, flesh and pride of life. She then believed the Serpent, and no longer believed God. She ate, and gave to Adam, and he ate. Their disobedience led to the fall.

Saul received instruction from the Lord. His disobedience led to the fall.

Now because we have the cross of Christ, and the forgiveness of sins, do you think God has changed his opinion about disobedience? The cross MAKES A WAY for reconciliation to God. Whilst we were DEAD in trespasses, Christ died for us. Now that you have received the forgiveness, and penalty paid - now are you free to live like the world?

By no means!

lol..

Are you perfect? God required perfection..

Why do people want to water Down Gods law. then sound all holy like they hold God as lord or something??

If you want to get to heaven by obedience, you better be perfect. Or you failed.

Your right, God does require obedience, However, YOU can not live up to Gods standard, I can not, Fran can not, Ariel can not, Grace777 can not.

We are all in the same boat.

Who are you going to trust in? Gods saving grace based on the lamb of God being slain.

or how good you are and how well you obey Gods commands.