Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus told people to go present themselves to the priest when they were healed. Do we do that today? Od course not.
That was an Old Covenant truth at the time that Jesus was on this earth before the cross. Jesus had to die before the New Covenant came into being.
Jesus told the rich young ruler when he asked Him "What must "I do" ( works ) to have eternal life." Jesus gave him the law of Moses - and of course the guy went away sad because he wouldn't give up his money. He had broken the 1st commandment in the law of Moses.
When ever we bring in "what must I do" as in works to inherit eternal life which the law of Moses was based on - at the time Jesus would give the law of Moses to these people. He used it or elevated it to expose their need for a Savior.
Do we tell people to keep the law of Moses now for eternal life like Jesus said to some people? Of course not - we say this in the New Covenant.
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Obviously we must rightly divide all scripture with the context and through the revelation of the finished work of Christ and in context of who is being spoken to at the time.
If not = then we mix up the Old Covenant with the New Covenant and make a mess out of them both and we can end up with a works-based/works-righteousness religion that nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.
If we feed Christians on the nutrients of the love and grace of God that is in Christ - then His life will manifest in good works empowered by His life within us - the branches. Without Him we can do nothing.
A
I think he came back after the cross.
Matthew 27
57When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away.
Matthew 27
57When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away.
Last edited by a moderator:
Because man is guilty and condemned prior to hearing.
Just and the justifier. His attributes and Person are seen in both the former and latter.
No one with a new nature, predestined to adoption and unto the image of Christ will come to a point where they don't want to be saved. That's absurd and foolish.
Neither passage is speaking on terms of salvation. Paul is making his argument, and the concludes in Romans 3 NONE do these things. If your usage of Romans 2:14-15 were true, Christ would need not have died for His people. Yes, a study of those passages is in order, just not in the way you intended.
Just and the justifier. His attributes and Person are seen in both the former and latter.
No one with a new nature, predestined to adoption and unto the image of Christ will come to a point where they don't want to be saved. That's absurd and foolish.
Neither passage is speaking on terms of salvation. Paul is making his argument, and the concludes in Romans 3 NONE do these things. If your usage of Romans 2:14-15 were true, Christ would need not have died for His people. Yes, a study of those passages is in order, just not in the way you intended.
You don't read what people write.
Did I say someone is not accountable?
The same way you don't understand what I write, is probably the same reason you don't understand what the bible says.
Instead of speaking to Ariel, ABOUT ME, why don't you just address what I bring up??
It's probably not easy for you to really speak to people.
Are you like a sargeant or something and all you do all day is scream at everybody?
Did I say someone is not accountable?
The same way you don't understand what I write, is probably the same reason you don't understand what the bible says.
Instead of speaking to Ariel, ABOUT ME, why don't you just address what I bring up??
It's probably not easy for you to really speak to people.
Are you like a sargeant or something and all you do all day is scream at everybody?
Our works is as filthy rags.There is none that does good,no,not one.We are all sinners and come short of the glory of God.Those in the flesh cannot please God.
There is nothing we can do to inherit salvation by our works,so the only thing we can do is have faith.
When we first come to Christ,and confess Christ,we are in the flesh,so the only thing we can do is have faith.
When we have the Spirit,then we have to have works of the Spirit,and if not then faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.
The Bible says,quench not the Spirit,but do the works of the Spirit.
Paul,faith alone,not saved by works,when we initially confess Christ.
James,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after we receive the Spirit.
Not a contradiction,but we are still in the flesh having not received the Spirit yet,when we confess Christ,so faith alone,but when we receive the Spirit we are then spiritual,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.
Paul and James both say the same thing.
Paul-if a person does not help the poor and needy,they have erred from the faith,which the love of money is the root of all
evil,because it neglects the poor and needy.
James-if a person sees a brother in need of food,and clothing,and says,depart in peace,be ye warmed,and filledmbut does not help them with their needs,then they do not have faith,for faith without works is dead.
People have to understand when Paul is speaking from the viewpoint of a person being fleshy,or spiritual.
Quench not the Spirit,for if you do,then faith without works is dead.
There is nothing we can do to inherit salvation by our works,so the only thing we can do is have faith.
When we first come to Christ,and confess Christ,we are in the flesh,so the only thing we can do is have faith.
When we have the Spirit,then we have to have works of the Spirit,and if not then faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.
The Bible says,quench not the Spirit,but do the works of the Spirit.
Paul,faith alone,not saved by works,when we initially confess Christ.
James,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after we receive the Spirit.
Not a contradiction,but we are still in the flesh having not received the Spirit yet,when we confess Christ,so faith alone,but when we receive the Spirit we are then spiritual,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.
Paul and James both say the same thing.
Paul-if a person does not help the poor and needy,they have erred from the faith,which the love of money is the root of all
evil,because it neglects the poor and needy.
James-if a person sees a brother in need of food,and clothing,and says,depart in peace,be ye warmed,and filledmbut does not help them with their needs,then they do not have faith,for faith without works is dead.
People have to understand when Paul is speaking from the viewpoint of a person being fleshy,or spiritual.
Quench not the Spirit,for if you do,then faith without works is dead.
Dcon
You should quit being interested in verb tenses and start reading up on what Jesus said when He was here on this earth trying to get people to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Do you feel YOU are promoting the Kingdom of God?
Are YOU spreading love around and making people feel good about their Christianity?
Do you suppose that when you're at the Judgement Seat of Christ He might ask why you were insulting other brothers and dividing them up?
You should quit being interested in verb tenses and start reading up on what Jesus said when He was here on this earth trying to get people to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Do you feel YOU are promoting the Kingdom of God?
Are YOU spreading love around and making people feel good about their Christianity?
Do you suppose that when you're at the Judgement Seat of Christ He might ask why you were insulting other brothers and dividing them up?
Amen! 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).
Now we read in Colossians 1:23 - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed.
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing large groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
Now we read in Colossians 1:23 - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed.
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing large groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I did not say it,James said it,and these are not our works,but works of the Spirit,which means do what God wants you to do.
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I did not say it,James said it,and these are not our works,but works of the Spirit,which means do what God wants you to do.
I read everything you write and to be honest....you peddle a false dogma infuenced by the religions you named the other day that you have been part of....you blend faith and works and teach falsely that you can lose or keep salvation based upon what you do...most see right through your charade and even speak about it regularly without you even knowing about it....
This has been answered many times and by a few people but I will do it once more for the sake of anyone reading the thread that didn't see it before.
Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..and I say to you.... "If" you are going to be at the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...get me $100 bucks.
I'll take a check too...
Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..and I say to you.... "If" you are going to be at the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...get me $100 bucks.
I'll take a check too...
A
A person is only justified by Jesus redeeming work upon the cross.
If our foundation is Christ, we will be saved from the fire, but we are responsible for how we build our lives and beliefs. If we listen to the Holy Spirit and use love/gold and good works or if we use hay and stubble that will be burnt in God's refining fire.
If our foundation is Christ, we will be saved from the fire, but we are responsible for how we build our lives and beliefs. If we listen to the Holy Spirit and use love/gold and good works or if we use hay and stubble that will be burnt in God's refining fire.
This has been answered many times and by a few people but I will do it once more for the sake of anyone reading the thread that didn't see it before.
Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..and I say to you.... "If" you are going to be at the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...get me $100 bucks.
I'll take a check too...
Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....
It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..and I say to you.... "If" you are going to be at the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...get me $100 bucks.
I'll take a check too...
It's very imaginative how you explain words that are as clear as day.
I certainly hope that anyone reading along does not think they have to KNOW GREEK to be able to understand the New Testament. I certainly hope they continue to read it with an open heart and hear what Jesus had to say during His ministry.
BTW, do you have a Ph.D. after your name?
And I suppose 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about Teachers, and has nothing to do with us. I suppose Teachers could fall away and go back into the world system, but not YOU or anyone esle that is not a teacher.
So when Jesus is speaking in Mathew 7:13-14 about entering in the wide gate or the narrow gate, He is speaking to everyone,
but in 2 peter 2:20 Paul is addressing only Teachers.
Yes. This is all very interesting. Did you attend special classes to learn how to twist scripture around to suit your needs?
Did you not learn that you MUST apply the same criteria to ALL scripture and not change it as you go along?
Do you think Jesus died so you could practice your cheap grace?
I certainly hope that anyone reading along does not think they have to KNOW GREEK to be able to understand the New Testament. I certainly hope they continue to read it with an open heart and hear what Jesus had to say during His ministry.
BTW, do you have a Ph.D. after your name?
And I suppose 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about Teachers, and has nothing to do with us. I suppose Teachers could fall away and go back into the world system, but not YOU or anyone esle that is not a teacher.
So when Jesus is speaking in Mathew 7:13-14 about entering in the wide gate or the narrow gate, He is speaking to everyone,
but in 2 peter 2:20 Paul is addressing only Teachers.
Yes. This is all very interesting. Did you attend special classes to learn how to twist scripture around to suit your needs?
Did you not learn that you MUST apply the same criteria to ALL scripture and not change it as you go along?
Do you think Jesus died so you could practice your cheap grace?
You DON'T believe in eternal salvation?!!!
View attachment 169847
No wonder you're so confused.. LOL
Just what do you think Jesus died on the cross for? Our EARTHLY salvation? NOPE. He died so that we may have eternal life. Read John 3:16..
And exactly HOW is eternal salvation an "unbiblical concept"?
No wonder you're so confused.. LOL
Just what do you think Jesus died on the cross for? Our EARTHLY salvation? NOPE. He died so that we may have eternal life. Read John 3:16..
And exactly HOW is eternal salvation an "unbiblical concept"?