Not By Works

[PeterJens]

This whole post reeks of ignorance...faith saves...end of story....Paul speaks to those who blend faith and works....calls them fools and bewitched.......and no matter how much you twist it, embellish it and or push your working for dogma it will not get you 1 inch closer to God's kingdom.....I forsee you in the plenteous in number group based upon your false gospel Fran....I suggest faith into what Christ has done and not in what you can do!

dc - How do you know Jesus is the Messiah?
You talk like he offers you something of value and you want it?
Is this eternal life, a freebe cruise ship with all the trimmings?

Is your heaven the same as the world, just populated with people like yourself?

I was interested in Jesus because he knew people, knew their failures, when they
lied and when position, influence meant more than just loving and caring for people.
Healing on the sabbath, what better way to show the hypocracy of the show.

Jesus is always about being real, loving through a situation not because of it.
If sinners cannot change fundamentally then there is no point. Jesus chose ordinary
people because they wanted to find heaven and righteousness, to be straight and pure,
to love and be loved. This is how I know His people. So dc, what about you?

It strikes me whether you believe in security of salvation or not, you are saved or unsaved
if you cannot bridge this gap of love what have you actually got?

I know you love your son, but I do not feel this love coming my way?
Do you know why that is? If I am your brother, I should know it, or if I am your
enemy I should know it. Maybe there is a glitch in your operating system.

Do you know how to go beyond the argument and find the person, the character
within? That is the guy I would like to meet and who Jesus saved. What has happened
to him?

 

[mailmandan]

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I did not say it,James said it,and these are not our works, but works of the Spirit,which means do what God wants you to do.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[Ariel82]

1 Corinthians 9 v 26-27 is not talking about salvation. The prize is a heavenly one..a crown of righteousness. Not all will get it...only those who build with gold/love and silver/good works (no don't have verse to link the them., just makes sense to me)

 

[blue_ladybug]

She posts verses that say NOTHING about doing works to keep salvation. Then posts more verses that PROVE we have eternal salvation, which is a concept she doesn't believe in but posts a verse that proves it's true.

How mixed up is that?!

 

[FranC]

This has been answered many times and by a few people but I will do it once more for the sake of anyone reading the thread that didn't see it before.

Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.

There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....

It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:

Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).

Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),

Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar



Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..and I say to you.... "If" you are going to be at the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...get me $100 bucks.

I'll take a check too...

I've read this at least two other times Grace.
What do you do? Copy and paste?

So, IF YOU ARE GOING TO THE BANK, is already fulfilled?

I'd love to quit reading silly stuff here on this thread.
I'd love to stop hearing how I must know Greek to understand the bible.

Maybe only the Greek people could be saved? Oh. Wait. Not even them, because they speak a MODERN Greek.

So, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH
Does not mean IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH. Great. Stupid Paul couldn't even write what he meant. He must have been a real idiot. Do you think Paul was an idiot? Do you think the tranlators of the original Greek didn't know what they were doing?

Do you speak any foreign languages? How are languages translated??? By each word???

 

[dcontroversal]

You're being God again.
Wasn't this the sin of Adam? He wanted to be LIKE God? I believe you think you ARE God.

So, I'm going to the pit. Would that be hell?

Interesting concepts you have.
Those who love Jesus and are doing WHAT HE SAID TO DO are going to the pit.

YOU, on the other hand, who does nothing but divide the brethren, must be surely going straight to God, since you DO NOT BELIEVE YOU SHOULD DO WHAT JESUS WANTS YOU TO DO.

And one of those things is to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.
He specifically gave this command.
Mathew 22:37-40

Also, check out: John 14:15

Not much love shown by you.

This is the problem with those that believe in cheap grace, those that believe as you do --- that no works are necessary,
they DO NOT OBEY what Jesus told them to do because they feel ALL THE WORK has already been done for them.

I suggest you go through the entire New Testament again, but with an open mind this time.

Blah blah blah

Paul was clear Faith plus works = a false gospel with NO POWER TO SAVE.....SO.....i simply referenced Paul and the truth he was inspired to write regardless of your embellished twist of what I said and or your implications..

 

[Ariel82]

It's very imaginative how you explain words that are as clear as day.

I certainly hope that anyone reading along does not think they have to KNOW GREEK to be able to understand the New Testament. I certainly hope they continue to read it with an open heart and hear what Jesus had to say during His ministry.

BTW, do you have a Ph.D. after your name?

And I suppose 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about Teachers, and has nothing to do with us. I suppose Teachers could fall away and go back into the world system, but not YOU or anyone esle that is not a teacher.

So when Jesus is speaking in Mathew 7:13-14 about entering in the wide gate or the narrow gate, He is speaking to everyone,
but in 2 peter 2:20 Paul is addressing only Teachers.

Yes. This is all very interesting. Did you attend special classes to learn how to twist scripture around to suit your needs?
Did you not learn that you MUST apply the same criteria to ALL scripture and not change it as you go along?

Do you think Jesus died so you could practice your cheap grace?

Too many bible verses jumping around.

I tend to skip post that are really long and technical...so their brilliance is lost on me most days.

2 Peter 2:20-22 ? Will look it up.

Who is practicing cheap grace? Jesus died and there is nothing cheap about that.

 

[jaybird88]

400 plus pages. so how many are here from the start of the thread? i folded just after 10 or more pages. wears me out.

 

[dcontroversal]

Too many bible verses jumping around.

I tend to skip post that are really long and technical...so their brilliance is lost on me most days.

2 Peter 2:20-22 ? Will look it up.

Who is practicing cheap grace? Jesus died and there is nothing cheap about that.

Almost all workers.for sling this false allegation around like a wet mop in a Chinese resturant!

 

[FranC]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

MMD
This is what you say:

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.


I sure hope Dcon is reading along...

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't believe that mailmandan practices this so-called "cheap grace". The grace of God may be free and unmerited but it came by the blood and life of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not by any imagination - cheap.

I know that this so-called cheap grace (which is a horribly derogatory term) has changed my life to live a holier life then I ever imagined before - from the fruit of His life manifesting in me. NOT from keeping any other commandment but to "believe in Christ and all that He has already done".

His life has produced "good works" in me because I have believed in Him. They are a fruit of my union with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I tried the works-based - performance based religion of Christianity many times and in many ways but found it a very poor substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and for knowing now the Father for who He truly is towards us - His beloved children.

I would never go back to that works-based religion for anything. Knowing Him is all I need and want. For I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[dcontroversal]

So most of the billions of people in the world are going to hell and it's up to YOU to make that determination?

Sure.....for claiming knowledge of the bible you sure miss a lot....No man comes to the Father except through Jesus and the way to hell is broad and MOST go that route....even the number that peddles works will go that route according to Jesus.....under the designation "many"

 

[Ariel82]

2 Peter 2
14They have eyes full of adultery,g insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slavesh of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

****

They are children of the Earthly Jerusalem, Hagar and the Old covenant and not the Heavenly Jerusalem, Sarah and the new covenant.

This are people who are not chastened by the Holy Spirit and not born again Children who inherit eternal life but hated siblings like Esau.

What do you think it mean to go the way of Balaam?

 

[followjesus]

Okay...any particular reason you are preaching this at me?

Because Jesus said those things among many others that make clear, what we do, with the gift given us will determine our end. and why all the sudden when you say " the only persons word i dont question is Jesus" when i quote a few things He said....am i "preaching something at you?" not at all my intention, but the fact is Jesus taught us the way to the Father, thats what He means when He says through me.

you know im reading alot of peoples comments Here things like " Jesus just said do our best" << He never even came close to saying that, its not that He is demanding perfection from us, He sets the gosl of perfection to keep us moving forward. none of us are perfect, even paul says he hadnt attained that goal, but was always pressing forth. No matter how far we come from what was behind, His words motivate and quicken us to press forward into the things of God, into a higher and higher calling. its really not a conversation " whether we can " Lose salvation" or not no one has that place to judge salvation. it comes down to a heart willing to accept His word and take that as it is.

There is much Grace in the words of Christ, and there is much warning against disregarding His word. He taught many things meant for us to Learn and press into doing simply because He is Jesus, the One who suffered and died. I wasnt "preaching" at you, i saw an opportunity because you said you dont Question Jesus words. He says much about His Kingdom some doesnt seem good at first, but in the end it becomes the best thing we ever heard.

His gospel is our cross spiritually. One who is greedy must crucify that by believing what He says of Greed, the one who is following lust, must take what He says about ridding thier Heart of it and put it to death, One who is prone to violence Must take what He says about it and out it to death ect. those types of things are what puts that old man to death as we walk in the Light of His word. I guess im so passionate about the 4 gospels and the teachings and sayings of Jesus, because its the gospel and it works, it offers freedom from whatever a person has in them that is contrary.

I dont know whats in your heart and Life at all, but it applies to any christian who desires freedom from sin and fellowship with Jesus. sorry i didnt mean to offend you , was just sharing some of His word that im not sure alot of folks consider.

 

[Ariel82]

400 plus pages. so how many are here from the start of the thread? i folded just after 10 or more pages. wears me out.

I only joined the discussion last week or so.

 

[FranC]

I don't believe that mailmandan practices this so-called "cheap grace". The grace of God may be free and unmerited but it came by the blood and life of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not by any imagination - cheap.

I know that this so-called cheap grace (which is a horribly derogatory term) has changed my life to live a holier life then I ever imagined before - from the fruit of His life manifesting in me. NOT from keeping any other commandment but to "believe in Christ and all that He has already done".

I tried the works-based - performance based religion of Christianity many times and in many ways but found it a very poor substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and for knowing now the Father for who He truly is towards us - His beloved children.

I would never go back to that works-based religion for anything. Knowing Him is all I need and want. For I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God.

Cheap grace is not a horrible term. It's a correct term.
The Death of Jesus on the cross means NOTHING to persons who look at the cross, see Jesus on it, and then proceed to teach Others that we are to do NOTHING and that NOTHING is required of us for the shedding of that blood.

This IS cheap grace. Jesus died to atone for our sins, not so that we could say we are not REQUIRED to do anything in return.
The entire N.T. tells me what I have to do. Jesus did nothing but speak about how to get to heaven, by beginning right here on earth, and what we had TO DO to get there. I don't recall any verse that says all we have to do is have faith.

Faith is the BEGINNING of or walk, not the end of our walk.

Those who have no faith could do all the works they want to and it will gain them nothing.
Those who are saved are REQUIRED to do good works for the Kingdom of God which starts right here. It' not necessary to quality that by explaining that "we don't really have to do works, but we want to". This must sound like nonsense to those reading along. DO WE OR DO WE NOT NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS? You say NO by everything you post.

Your No makes it be cheap grace.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus told people to go present themselves to the priest when they were healed. Do we do that today? Od course not.

That was an Old Covenant truth at the time that Jesus was on this earth before the cross. Jesus had to die before the New Covenant came into being.

Jesus told the rich young ruler when he asked Him "What must "I do" ( works ) to have eternal life." Jesus gave him the law of Moses - and of course the guy went away sad because he wouldn't give up his money. He had broken the 1st commandment in the law of Moses.

When ever we bring in "what must I do" as in works to inherit eternal life which the law of Moses was based on - at the time Jesus would give the law of Moses to these people. He used it or elevated it to expose their need for a Savior.

Pardon. Jesus the messiah on earth, a young man goes on his knees before the King
and asks what he must do. It was all a show, here I am, rich, successful, know my
scriptures, this is the crowning of my achievement.

And Jesus says follow me. God is inviting him to walk into eternity. A showman who
will have to become ordinary, be like everyone else. Religion was just a badge so people
could admire him, wealth and faith, together, a double wammy.

But following Jesus was just too much, no pride, no glory, no standing for adulation.
But God was there calling him, if he truly wanted the Lord, there was nothing to stop him.
Many today feel the same way, being a doorkeeper in the Kingdom would be too lowly
for them.

 

[FranC]

Because Jesus said those things among many others that make clear, what we do, with the gift given us will determine our end. and why all the sudden when you say " the only persons word i dont question is Jesus" when i quote a few things He said....am i "preaching something at you?" not at all my intention, but the fact is Jesus taught us the way to the Father, thats what He means when He says through me.

you know im reading alot of peoples comments Here things like " Jesus just said do our best" << He never even came close to saying that, its not that He is demanding perfection from us, He sets the gosl of perfection to keep us moving forward. none of us are perfect, even paul says he hadnt attained that goal, but was always pressing forth. No matter how far we come from what was behind, His words motivate and quicken us to press forward into the things of God, into a higher and higher calling. its really not a conversation " whether we can " Lose salvation" or not no one has that place to judge salvation. it comes down to a heart willing to accept His word and take that as it is.

There is much Grace in the words of Christ, and there is much warning against disregarding His word. He taught many things meant for us to Learn and press into doing simply because He is Jesus, the One who suffered and died. I wasnt "preaching" at you, i saw an opportunity because you said you dont Question Jesus words. He says much about His Kingdom some doesnt seem good at first, but in the end it becomes the best thing we ever heard.

His gospel is our cross spiritually. One who is greedy must crucify that by believing what He says of Greed, the one who is following lust, must take what He says about ridding thier Heart of it and put it to death, One who is prone to violence Must take what He says about it and out it to death ect. those types of things are what puts that old man to death as we walk in the Light of His word. I guess im so passionate about the 4 gospels and the teachings and sayings of Jesus, because its the gospel and it works, it offers freedom from whatever a person has in them that is contrary.

I dont know whats in your heart and Life at all, but it applies to any christian who desires freedom from sin and fellowship with Jesus. sorry i didnt mean to offend you , was just sharing some of His word that im not sure alot of folks consider.

I agree with all. I do feel that if one denies Christ, he is lost, but that's a different thread.

What is interesting is when somone says they'll only believe what Jesus says,
And then verses are posted that are DIRECTLY from Jesus
And they are questioned!

 

[FranC]

Almost all workers.for sling this false allegation around like a wet mop in a Chinese resturant!

Does it make you feel proud not to be a worker?
You have kids?
Do you teach them that they don't have to do anything for you because you love them?

 

[Ariel82]

If your foundation is faith in Jesus finished work on the cross for the remission of your sins, his ressurection and ascension to heaven. If you are sealed with God's holy spirit than you WILL BE SAVED, even if all your works burn up in the fire. God will pull you out, like He did Daniel's three friends.

However if your works stand and are gold or silver,you will get a reward in Heaven. This is the crown Paul races for, NOT salvation.

******

1 Corinthians 3
10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilledb master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.