Not By Works

[FranC]

Am I, is that how I come accross

No silly.
You've forgotten my dry sense of humor....
my oh my.

 

[PeterJens]

Ariel,

You must know by now that I don't post links.
I'm going to post this one and I truly hope you read it well.
Readl all of it, not in snippets.

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

It explains really well Justification and Sanctification and even what different churches doctrine is.

Given the length of the article it is obvious the issues are complex and probably are not
very suited to a forum, because there is simply not enough space to cover it well.

It is why simply recognising the tension between holiness and where we are, is the first
important step.

The next is admitting we need to travel to a place of holiness and this is God calling.
My sadness is that many appear not to even admit this is true or of value.

And people repeatedly saying they believe it is unnecessary does not answer the
points raised by Christ, about building upon the rock.

But then if Jesus's words do not stir you up, the conversation has already finished.
It is why I have been fascinated by my Lord, because He forever draws me onwards,
Praise the Lord.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Get with the program. WE ARE ALL STILL IN THAT SINFUL WORLD. Nobody here on earth is sinless..

Blue,
Are you a part of that sinful world?
Jesus said to come out of the sinful world !!

YOU'RE still in it !!

 

[FranC]

Sanctification is an ongoing process and DIFFERENT from justification...the author is reformed so I take his views of others positions with a grain of salt.

But this quote is good

Yes Ma'am.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

And, I hope you noticed that he presents ALL the points of view.

Too bad you take positions with a grain of salt.
That's how one learns things...

BY HAVING AN OPEN MIND.
And thinking things over well and comparing them to the written Word.
It's a great system.

 

[Ariel82]

Did I EVER SAY I BELIEVE IN SINLSS PERFECTION.

And life would be sinplier if you simply stated you didn't believe in the straw man and said what you did believe.

But instead you play games with words.

Never answering how long you have studied theology or clearly saying what you believe when asked.

Parables are stories to reflect spiritual truths and realities. It helps God's children discern truth and lies when fully understood by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The world looks at externals, God changes the internal.

The demands fruit, God asks if you have the right Root?

 

[BillG]

No silly.
You've forgotten my dry sense of humor....
my oh my.

just checking, you know I'm a sensitive soul.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes Ma'am.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

And, I hope you noticed that he presents ALL the points of view.

Too bad you take positions with a grain of salt.
That's how one learns things...

BY HAVING AN OPEN MIND.
And thinking things over well and comparing them to the written Word.
It's a great system.

So which position as he lays it out do you hold concerning sanctification?

I will ignore the implied insult that I don't have an open mind, think things over and compare them to scriptures.

The grain of salt is that most people,inaccurately represent others positions and beliefs. Therefore I read what He believes others believe with a grain of salt in that He may be wrong in his summary of their beliefs.

 

[FranC]

Given the length of the article it is obvious the issues are complex and probably are not
very suited to a forum, because there is simply not enough space to cover it well.

It is why simply recognising the tension between holiness and where we are, is the first
important step.

The next is admitting we need to travel to a place of holiness and this is God calling.
My sadness is that many appear not to even admit this is true or of value.

And people repeatedly saying they believe it is unnecessary does not answer the
points raised by Christ, about building upon the rock.

But then if Jesus's words do not stir you up, the conversation has already finished.
It is why I have been fascinated by my Lord, because He forever draws me onwards,
Praise the Lord.

Agreed. I almost didn't post it, but it's such a good article. It explains everything reallly well.

The only statement I'd like to make is that we are to STRIVE FOR HOLINESS.
We're not to worry about whether or not we'll get there.
We're not to hear our brethren make statements that SOUND as if it's Ok to sin, whether or not they mean it that way becomes totally irrelevant if that is how it is perceived by new Christians or Christians that just need to have their sins be justified. (The dictionary meaning of justified...).

I find it difficult to understand why this is a point of contention here...

 

[Ariel82]

What you don't get PeterJens is folks are talking about Justification and not sanctification...which is why you make inaccurate statements like this:

people repeatedly saying they believe it is unnecessary

Maybe if you could realize the topic being discussed you wouldn't get so confused and make so many strawmen.

 

[Ariel82]

Yeah and folks should stop telling new Christians that if they aren't completely sinless then they aren't REALLY God's kids.

Or say things that SOUND like they are teaching sinless perfection and making works a requiremeNT FOR JUSTIFICATION.

And making sanctification and justification into the same thing,when they are NOT.

Both are part of the Christian walk but understanding the difference between the two is key to,maturity in Christ.

 

[FranC]

So which position as he lays it out do you hold concerning sanctification?

I will ignore the implied insult that I don't have an open mind, think things over and compare them to scriptures.

The grain of salt is that most people,inaccurately represent others positions and beliefs. Therefore I read what He believes others believe with a grain of salt in that He may be wrong in his summary of their beliefs.

Ummm. I don't go by what HE lays out.

I read the bible and go by God's word. He explains everything really well and it can be compared to scripture.

I've explained Justification and Sanctification right here on this thread many times.
It seems to NOT be read.

What do YOU think it means?

And regarding the open mind...

If you've been reading along, you'd KNOW what I believe sanctification. BTW, I believe it's what the bible says it is.
The reaon you don't is because you don't REALLY have an open mind, but just think you do.

If you had an open mind you would really read what people post here and understand it and not just ASSUME you know how they feel about everything.

REALLY,
What do YOU think sanctification is?

You've never really explained it and I've explained it MANY TIMES.

 

[FranC]

Yeah and folks should stop telling new Christians that if they aren't completely sinless then they aren't REALLY God's kids.

Who said this?

Show us the post...

 

[PennEd]

You said that Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard.

But it sounds so much like you don't encourage those who are saying that they're TRYING to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

So, what you're saying is that to the adulturous woman, Jesus meant to go and not be a prostitute anymore,
but it was OK to do OTHER SINS?

Are all sins the same or not???

See MMD, I know what you mean, but to Others is sounds very cloudy.

Jesus said LET YOUR YES BE YES, AND YOUR NO BE NO.

HE was CLEAR in what He preached.

Why can we not be clear??

The Law is like Yoda! "There is NO try! Do, or do not".


Paul and James and Jesus make this clear. If you want to be justified by the Law you MUST keep the WHOLE Law, ALWAYS.

I have heard people (not you) use the term "cheap Grace", when actually the exact OPPOSITE is true. Those that want to mix Grace and Law, or those that think they can or have achieved sinless perfection in this mortal body, have a very cheap understanding of God's perfection.

If we examine our day closely we can probably find a large number of sins of commission AND omission. EVERY Day.

But remember what Paul tells us in Romans. Those who say that Grace alone believers push sin without consequence heap condemnation on themselves.

 

[Ariel82]

Can't answer a straight question can you?

 

[notmyown]

Sanctification is an ongoing process and DIFFERENT from justification...the author is reformed so I take his views of others positions with a grain of salt.

But this quote is good

just checking before i begin my real life day....

you mean you thought Millard Erickson is reformed, right (he isn't)? not Jason Dulle (he really isn't!)?

 

[gb9]

Can't answer a straight question can you?

the reason, in my opinion, is this- certain people are not going to get involved in a actual back and forth, Q and A dialog. they are not going to do that because then they could not " control the narrative".

this is why they dance and duck and dodge and lecture. a real dialog might expose some things they keep well hidden.

 

[mailmandan]

Please read the link I posted in no. 9382.

I noticed this in the article:

Justified "In Christ"

Justification is a changing of our relationship with God. We receive a new position or status before Him.

I had previously mentioned in post #9079 - 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.. and attributed this to our standing before God postionally in Christ. Apparently, Jason Dulle is in agreement with me here, yet in post #9119, you said: "Also, there's no such thing as POSITIONAL in the bible. Show me ONE VERSE that says we are POSITIONALLY anything." hmm...

There's too much misunderstanding between us. You keep bringing up Catholicism and I don't know why.

As I mentioned before, it's obvious that Roman Catholicism has deeply impacted what you believe, as we see from post #7396 in this thread. You already admitted in post #7331 in this same thread that you grew up Catholic and taught in that church, which explains so much. When I posted that a Roman Catholic mentioned we are saved through faith "as long as faith is properly defined" then he went on to say faith INCLUDES...then he gave a list of works. Then you defended what this Roman Catholic said, and I quote from you: "NO MMD Your Catholic friend is CORRECT." hmm...

You must really hate it a lot.

Why would I love a church that perverts the gospel and leaves people in bondage? I have several family members who are still in bondage to Roman Catholicism.

BTW, the link I posed also addresses sinless perfection.
It's a great read.

I read this in the article about sinless perfection: When the "perfection" Scriptures are understood in their context it can be seen that absolute moral perfection is not envisioned. Immediately after confessing that he had not yet attained (Philippians 3:12-14), Paul speaks of himself as being perfect (Philippians 3:15). The Greek teleios, translated as "perfect," refers to and end, completion, or maturity, not absolute perfection. When Jesus said to be perfect, He was not referring to moral perfection, but spiritual maturity. John's statement that believers do not, and indeed cannot sin must also be understood in its context. The Greek word poieo, translated "commit" is in the present tense. This is a customary, or habitual use of the present stressing a state of action that is regular and ongoing. Believers are not characterized by continual sinful behavior, but this does not mean that they never exhibit sinful behavior.

It sounds like the author and I are on the same page about the false doctrine of sinless perfection.

 

[Ariel82]

It's your article...which one of these positions on sanctification do you hold?

.The author holds the reformed view. I don't agree with his assessment of the Wesleyan view but is a common misconception of his teachings held by reformed believers.

Various Views

There have been several views of sanctification propagated during the history of the church. Here is a brief description of the more prominent views.

Pelagianism

The doctrine of Pelagianism is derived from Pelagius, an astute ascetic who lived during the late fourth century and early fifth centuries. Pelagius's view of sanctification/ salvation arose from his particular view of hamartiology. Based on his belief in the special creation of each soul by God, he did not believe that man was born inherently sinful through Adam, but that each person was created free from sin and guilt just as Adam was created in righteousness. We only become sinners when we commit our first sin, but still will not possess a natural bias toward sin. Because we are morally responsible, any sin committed by the Christian is committed by free choice, apart from any unbridled evil passions of the will.
Although Pelagius confessed that sanctification must come by the grace of God, his definition of grace was that of an external aid given by God to illuminate to us our need for holiness, not an internal working of God's Spirit.21 Sanctification, then, comes by the effort of men and their will, unaided by a divine inner-working of God's Spirit.

Purgatorical View

Catholicism maintains that it is possible to be entirely sanctified in this life. One is sanctified by obedience to God's law coupled with grace/faith. If one passes out of this life with sins still on their account they must pass through the purifying fires of purgatory to complete their sanctification. Purgatory, then, is an intermediate place between earth and heaven where the saved dead go to purify their souls from venial sins before entering the holy presence of God. The duration and severity of the purifying depends on the severity of one's sins.22 Time in purgatory can be lessened by special masses, prayers, and alms of the church.
The purgatorical view does not have much to commend it seeing that there is no real Biblical warrant for such a belief in purgatory. The belief is drawn from weak Scriptural statements, the Apocrypha, and the writings of Origen (II Maccabees 12:46; Matthew 5:26; 12:32; I Corinthians 3:11-15). The Scriptures indicate that at death one's spirit goes to heaven or to hell, depending on their relationship with God at the point of death, not an intermediate place of torment to cleanse them from all sin (Luke 23:43; II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:20-23).

Lutheran

Luther understood sanctification to be getting used to our justification. One of the hallmarks of the Lutheran theology of sanctification is his teaching that man is both sinner and saint simultaneously. There is always a dual tension in the life of the believer between these two identities. The law of God and the grace of God are dichotomies, opposed to one another. The law of God reveals God's holiness and our sinfulness, while the grace of God saves us.

Reformed

Sanctification is viewed as both a past reality and present progress. In Reformed theology the basis of our sanctification is our union with Christ (I Corinthians 1:30). We draw our sanctification from Christ's perfect sanctification, and our union with His person. When we are joined to Christ the dominion of sin is broken (Romans 6:6), and our status to sin is changed. Reformed theology does not see a dichotomy between law and grace as did Luther, but sees the law of God as the guide for the justified.

Wesleyan/Keswickian

Although conceptually distinct, the Wesleyan and Keswickian models of sanctification are so compatible that both shall be dealt with together.
Wesleyan sanctification teaches that there is a second work of grace that comes to the believer through a crisis experience, perfecting sanctification (entire sanctification). This grace will perfect the believer in love. John Wesley did not believe that a perfected believer could no longer sin, but rather that they would not sin. Although Wesley recognized that there were sins of ignorance and omission, on a practical level he defined sin purely in terms of volition. Sin is any voluntary act against a known law of God (I John 3:4). Perfection is not sinlessness, but an all encompassing change of life. It is a relative perfection which frees the Christian from willful transgressions against God's law, impure intentions, and pride by eradicating our sinful desires.
Wesley did not see sanctification as a once-for-all status, but in terms of an acquired attribute subsequent to conversion (thus a second work of grace). As did the Catholic church, Wesley blended the concepts of justification and sanctification into one, and thus taught that in order to keep one's justification they must continue in sanctification.
The Keswickian model is hybrid between Reformed and Wesleyan theology. It borrows its view of man's inherent sinfulness and the necessity of holiness growing out of our union with Christ from the former, and the idea of perfection from the latter. Keswick distinguishes between the normal, or carnal Christian and the victorious, or spiritual Christian. The former fail to live by the power of the Spirit, but are being controlled by the lusts of the flesh.23 The latter is the Christian who has a post-conversion crisis experience which catapults them into a life of victory over the sins of the flesh. Believers are responsible to appropriate Christ's victory to their lives, but many Christians live below the dignity of the Christ-filled life.
Keswickian theology, although it also defines a believer's sinlessness in terms of voluntary disobedience to a known law of God, also recognizes that there are sins of the heart and sins of omission. We will never attain sinless perfection until our death/ glorification because we are inherent sinners. The sin nature will never be eradicated in this life, but it is overwhelmed by the influence of the indwelling Spirit of God.24 There are, then, two levels of sin in Keswickian theology: theoretical, practical. When we do commit sin we are thrown out of fellowship with God. Since we can never please God in and of ourselves we must allow Christ to take over in our lives.

Evangelical

Evangelicals see a relationship between justification and sanctification, but distinguish them conceptually so that one's justification before God is not seen to be dependent on one's level of sanctification. Sanctification is positional and progressive. Borrowing from Luther, evangelicals maintain that man is both righteous and a sinner simultaneously. Man works with God to grow in holiness, by the grace of God. The Westminster Shorter Catechism (1647) provides the following answer to the nature of sanctification which succinctly defines the evangelical view: "Sanctification is the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness."25

 

[notmyown]

The Law is like Yoda! "There is NO try! Do, or do not".


Paul and James and Jesus make this clear. If you want to be justified by the Law you MUST keep the WHOLE Law, ALWAYS.

I have heard people (not you) use the term "cheap Grace", when actually the exact OPPOSITE is true. Those that want to mix Grace and Law, or those that think they can or have achieved sinless perfection in this mortal body, have a very cheap understanding of God's perfection.

If we examine our day closely we can probably find a large number of sins of commission AND omission. EVERY Day.

But remember what Paul tells us in Romans. Those who say that Grace alone believers push sin without consequence heap condemnation on themselves.

"Run, John, run!", the Law demands, but gives me neither feet nor hands. Better news the Gospel brings, It bids me fly and gives me wings .
-John Bunyan


thought you might appreciate that, Ed. blessings!

 

[FranC]

FOR ARIEL,

I've endured many INSULTS here. I just said it's good to have an open mind.
Here's some stuff YOU'VE told me. It's not even implied, but said outright...


Posting links doesn't show you have read or understood what was being said.
no. 9386


I do wonder if you actually read and understood the article you posted?
no. 9400


Where in that post you responded to did you read sanctified?

You have reading issues.
no. 9407


The guy defines perfect ...But You probably ignored that also...
no. 9408


But instead you play games with words.
no. 9425


AND MANY MORE. But I don't have the time to do this.