Not By Works

[Ariel82]

No one does number three.."

3. We admit these desires are ok and part of us"

.just another straw man..

We admit that it's part of the flesh that needs to be put to death and that the desires are NOT okay but wrong and need to be overcome THRU THE POWER GIVEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[FranC]

And how long have you been studying and what have you been studying?

So far all i have seen is you speaking but not really listening to what others say.

I don't really have an issue with most of your doctrine, but your constant inability to read and actually understand what others are saying does not say to me "this is a mature Christian, you should learn your doctrine from her"

I don't think you even understand the difference between sanctification and justification. You claim that Pual doesn't make a distinction but you would be wrong.

However, I expect you to respond in anger and pride. So then the whole conversation becomes pointless until you calm down again.

Ariel,

You must know by now that I don't post links.
I'm going to post this one and I truly hope you read it well.
Readl all of it, not in snippets.

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

It explains really well Justification and Sanctification and even what different churches doctrine is.

 

[Ariel82]

◄ Ephesians 4 ►
King James Bible
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i understand saying our works dont get us into heaven given all of deserve hell


but i feel sad that people still deny the power of the holy spirit

 

[FranC]

It sounds to me like that's just what you want to hear. Maybe you missed the part where I said - "So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that is the goal to strive for."

That's not what I said either. Straw man argument. Do you believe that Jesus was demanding sinless perfection from that moment on for this woman or else?

According to Roman Catholicism, a venial sin is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal damnation in Hell as an unrepented mortal sin would. Is that where you are going with this?

Why is it that I'm primarily hearing from you that I am not clear? What was I unclear about? Should I have said that "go and sin no more" means live a sinless, perfect life from that moment on or else?

Please read the link I posted in no. 9382.

There's too much misunderstanding between us.
You keep bringing up Catholicism and I don't know why.
You must really hate it a lot.

BTW, the link I posed also addresses sinless perfection.
It's a great read.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel,

You must know by now that I don't post links.
I'm going to post this one and I truly hope you read it well.
Readl all of it, not in snippets.

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

It explains really well Justification and Sanctification and even what different churches doctrine is.

Posting links doesn't show you have read or understood what was being said.

You don't even get what folks here say, even after pages of them telling you. You just skip over whole phrases of others words to show how much wiser you think yourself to be.

However, I will look and see if your arcticle is biblically sound or just drivel.


Wait..."oneness Pentecostal" as in that don't believe in the Trinity?

 

[BillG]

Ariel,

You must know by now that I don't post links.
I'm going to post this one and I truly hope you read it well.
Readl all of it, not in snippets.

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

It explains really well Justification and Sanctification and even what different churches doctrine is.

I already have that one.

Been a while since I have read it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

God asks us to TRY to not sin anymore.. That's all, TRY.


Let me ask you,

Do you ever see a pretty girl and think "hmmmm she's hot"?

Or get angry and curse out the driver who cut you off?

You still sin, Jaime. So do I. So does everyone else here..

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect. If we were, we would be Jesus.

we are to not be of the fallen world...


John 17King James Version (KJV)

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

◄ Ephesians 4 ►
King James Bible
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

finally scripture

ok interesting

i dont see how this says we will always remain in sin but become perfect in unity of the faith unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[blue_ladybug]

Jaime,

You know how God says He will never leave us or forsake us?

Then WHY did He leave and forsake Jesus while He was on the cross?

It's because Jesus BECAME sin. And God could not look upon Him.

The same with us, God cannot look upon our sin, until we repent and TRY to not do it again..

Operative word: TRY

 

[BillG]

Do you ever see a pretty girl and think "hmmmm she's hot"?

Or get angry and curse out the driver who cut you off?

oi missy

you promised you would never tell anyone about me

 

[FranC]

No Peterjens, you build another straw man because you refuse to accept the BIBLE'S definition of sin:


You want it to mean a set of laws you can check off as having not broken, but living righteously is MORE than that.

IT is as you mentioned learning to love others and to do the Good God means for you to do.

If you dont, it's a sin and needs to be taken to God in prayer.

Not used to make someone feel condemned but as a learning lesson to become the people God means for us to be.

.God chastens all His kids.

Are you saying PeterJens does not know the meaning of "righteous"??
Are you saying he's living under the Law?
Who here knows more about love? Give a list.
Who do you think feels Condemned by your words? Those who speak of love, never say a mean word, and are doing their best to live a sanctified life?

Did you read the link yet??

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's free will. We can choose to remain in our filthy sin, whatever it may be. OR we can choose to TRY and not do that sin anymore. All God asks us to do is TRY. We live in an evil fallen world where sins, and temptations abound. God knows that we WILL slip up, that's why He offers us constant forgiveness.

finally scripture

ok interesting

i dont see how this says we will always remain in sin but become perfect in unity of the faith unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[notmyown]

Posting links doesn't show you have read or understood what was being said.

You don't even get what folks here say, even after pages of them telling you. You just skip over whole phrases of others words to show how much wiser you think yourself to be.

However, I will look and see if your arcticle is biblically sound or just drivel.


Wait..."oneness Pentecostal" as in that don't believe in the Trinity?

they don't understand our definition of justification, either. i've NEVER seen a protestant Christian conflate justification and sanctification.

consider this quote:

Justification is threefold in that the Bible speaks of it as having already occurred, as though it is presently occurring, and a future time at which we will be justified (glorification).

nope, that's salvation the Bible speaks of that way, not justification.
there are statements in the article with which i agree, but the above quote ain't one of 'em.

 

[FranC]

oi missy

you promised you would never tell anyone about me

No Bill.
You're a sinless perfection type guy!!
Whoever even heard that term till I came to these forums?
NOT ME!!

 

[FranC]

they don't understand our definition of justification, either. i've NEVER seen a protestant Christian conflate justification and sanctification.

consider this quote:

Justification is threefold in that the Bible speaks of it as having already occurred, as though it is presently occurring, and a future time at which we will be justified (glorification).

nope, that's salvation the Bible speaks of that way, not justification.
there are statements in the article with which i agree, but the above quote ain't one of 'em.

You should read the link again.
And since YOU are intelligent, maybe you'll even understand it.

Then again...
Maybe you'll just take from it what you like....

 

[BillG]

No Bill.
You're a sinless perfection type guy!!
Whoever even heard that term till I came to these forums?
NOT ME!!

Am I, is that how I come accross

 

[FranC]

they don't understand our definition of justification, either. i've NEVER seen a protestant Christian conflate justification and sanctification.

consider this quote:

Justification is threefold in that the Bible speaks of it as having already occurred, as though it is presently occurring, and a future time at which we will be justified (glorification).

nope, that's salvation the Bible speaks of that way, not justification.
there are statements in the article with which i agree, but the above quote ain't one of 'em.

Just for those reading along.

PLEASE READ THE LINK FOR YOURSELVES.

 

[blue_ladybug]

There is no such thing as sinless perfection.

That phrase is an oxymoron.

Sinless = perfect

Perfect + sinless= Jesus Christ

Perfect= sinless

 

[Ariel82]

I do wonder if you actually read and understood the article you posted?

He speaks of positional justification and righteousness.

In the OT, the Hebrew word translated "righteous" or "just" is saddiq, which originally carried the idea "to be straight," and came to refer to "conformity to an ethical standard."1 In the hiphil form the word was used in a forensic sense, meaning "to declare righteous" or "to justify."2 This righteousness is not an earned or imparted ethical righteousness, but a declaratory judgment of God on the believing sinner. Many OT references confirm the forensic nature of righteousness (See Exodus 23:7; Deuteronomy 25:1; I Kings 8:32; Job 32:2; Psalm 51:4; Isaiah 1:18; 5:23; 53:11; Zechariah 3:1-5). Just as a judge's verdict of guilt does not make an individual guilty, God's pronouncement of innocence on the believer does not make them ethically righteous, but only affects their standing before the law and the law-giver.
*****
Righteousness and justification in the NT also refer to a forensic reckoning of God on the account of the believer. The forensic nature of righteousness shines forth in several NT passages (Matthew 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29; 10:29; 16:15; 18:9-14; Acts 13:39; Romans 2:13; 3:20; 4:3). In Romans 4 Paul uses the term logizomai eleven times in connection with righteousness. This Greek word is an accounting term which refers to the crediting of something to an account. It means to consider, to count towards, or to credit to one's account. The believer has God's righteousness credited to his account and thus is considered to be in a right relationship to God's law. God is portrayed as the King who oversees the righteous conduct of the land. Instead of receiving the wrath of the Law-giver for not keeping the law of the kingdom, the believer is acquitted from all guilt and condemnation. Even this forensic aspect of righteousness pertains to relationship. A believer is considered to be in right standing with the law; a decision handed down by the Law-giver Himself.
In a wider sense the NT concept of righteousness is that of relationship, and attempts to explain how human beings can enter into a right relationship with God. Like saddiq, the root dikaio does not have its primary referent as ethical and moral conduct, but such is implied in various contexts. It could be said that moral conduct is the logical outflow of a right relationship with God and His law.